Talk:Mordvins

Mordvin (Mirde) peoples

The name of this section is rather dubious. Everyone wants to find an Erzya or Moksha link between the exonym Mordvin and a united people. Other Finno-Ugrian languages such as Mari, Udmurt and Komi have words marij, murt and mort which mean "person". The only word in Erzya or Moksha that comes close in form is the word "mir'd'e". This word, however, only bears the meaning "husband, male spouse". Yes, the Russian word "муж" is also translated as husband. If you want to look at definitions, then just take a gander at Mordwinisches Wörterbuch from the collection of dialects of the Moksha and Erzya by Heikki Paasonen (1990, 1992, 1994, 1996).Botuzhaleny-sodamo (talk) 12:15, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

This seems to be a difficult task to provide the correct list of all Mordvin peoples. The first written mention of them is made by Herodotos c. 425-430 BC. under the name of Androfags, living west of Budins. According to old research of Finnish Eero Kuussaari published first in 1935 in Helsinki, where he compared the names written down by Herodotos to the areas where Finno Ugrian peoples lived behind the Scythians, he came to conclusion that Androfags were Proto Mordvins or to be correctly named Proto Mirdes (the humans). Melanklains were Proto Maris and Budins were Proto Ud-murts. This seems to be even today the most reliable source. Nobody have been able to prove his theory wrong. Herodotos understood wrongly the name Mirde or Mordi and named them in Greek language Androfags (man eaters) after what the Greeks living in the colonies in the northern shore of the Black Sea told him. Otherwise his list of "The peoples behind the Scythians between Danube and Don is quite accurace when compared to later historians, as example to Roman Mela in writing in c.100 AD.

During the times more and more evidence had been collected of Mirde people by others, later existed, historians of different ethnic origin. Usually the first written mention is said to be by Jordanes c. 350 AD. in his Ermanarik peoples. Jordanes listed Gothos, Scythas (meaning Slavonic peoples), Thiudos, Inaunxis, Vasinas, Broncas (or Bovoncas), Merens, Mordens (Remnis), Imnis, and Caris to be ruled by Ermanarik. This is the first written mention, according to the later produced Russian historical version, of the Mirdes which they called Mordva, but behind their back secretly "Poperetshje" (set across).

Isigonus Niceanus told of Androfags "who drunk from their killed enemies skulls and used their killed enemies head skins for their magician seremonies". In 950 their land (The Rava / Rav heights) ie. the west bank, called Mordia by Arab historians. Marco Polo describes of Mordui and Plano Carpini of Morduani. All these were connected to Latin word Mort (Death), meaning people who brings the sure death to their opponents. However, there were (later) several Mirde peoples who spoked different dialects of Proto Mirde (Mordva) language. Meshtsheras who lived in the low land forests and bogs between Kliazma and Oka Rivers. They were the main group of inhabitants of ancient Muromi, Meshtsheri Hillfort highland area and Räsan (Russian version of Räsan become later Riazan or Rjazan) principalities. Mokshas who lived in western part of the Rava (Volga) Heights, and Erzas who lived in the eastern part of the Rav (Volga) heights. South of both these poeples lived little known Burttas which may have been mixture of Mokshas and Erzas, mainly in the Tambov, Penza, and Saratuva / Saratuba areas along the Rivers Erzula and along Rava Igriz east of Rav River. This was the southern limit which was inhabited by the Finno Ugrians in Rava / Rav (later Volga) River area.

During the time of the Great Peoples Wandering, some Finnish sources, based to old names of the peoples in Eastern Central Europe, suggest that at least part of the Mirdes joined the wanderers and eventually settled themselves to Pannonia and Bohemia with other ancient Finno Ugrian tribes.

The first major chance happened in c. 650 when the three Hunnic tribes which later formed the Itil Bolghars penetrated along the east bank of Itil (Volga) to the south of the confluence of the Itil (Volga) and Kama Rivers and formed there their Kingdom of Great Itil (Volga) Bolgharia. The Mirdes who lived on the Rava Heights had close connections with the Bolghars and this peaceful connection remained up to the destruction of Itil Bolgharia in 1237. But the main threat come from the western direction. As a result of the threat of wandering steppe peoples, the Kievan Slavs started to wander eastward to the west bank of River Don (Tanais) middle course. This happened c. 700-800. After the defeat of Vjatitsis (another Valgia (Volga) Finnish people) to Kievan Prince Svjatoslav in fearce battles in 965 and 966 and to the Vladimir I in 981, the Slavs entered in larger numbers to the upper course of River Oka and established their first settlements to Räsan principality. Räsan, and later Muromi become their major places with first direct trade connection with the Merdi peoples. It is from this period when the first Mirde saying of the Slavs have been preserved to history: "minor in arms but plenty of men". In the north the Norsemen origin Slav Princes with assistance of new Norsemen from Baltic Sea area entered to Meriland (Merjaland), north of the Mirdeland, and entered from the north to the Kliazma River and founded Vladimir, or actually Volodmerj (Ruler of Merja) in the place of former Meriland capital Rosta. This was the typical Slav pattern to settle themselves, at first in small numbers, to existing Finno Ugrian villages, trading settlements and even near hillforts to have protection, but then inwandere in greater numbers and settle themselves in their new built Slav villages and outnumber the existing (good in arms but minor in men) Finno Ugrian population. This method of Slavonic penetration has continued ever since. However, some historians locate, according to the name, Rosta to the site of Rostov at the shore of Lake Nero, which was earlier in Finno Urgian times called Lake Mero or Meri after the Meris, "The people of great lakes".

Created image for the article

I chose the 4 most famous and recognizable Mordvins and created an image with them. I think it looks good and there are no license problems with it, so now this article to has it's image. M.V.E.i. 16:57, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

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Dear contributors, Very much appreciate your efforts but. There is a misunderstanding in the very title of the article. I am Mokshan and believe I never seen people you call Mordvins. Still there are no ethnic Czechoslovaks or Khanty-Mansis. Russians never cared about that and used to call Mokshans and Erzyans just Mordvins. In fact believe me Mokshans do not understand Erzyan language though both languages are close as they are Mordvinic branch of Fenno-Volgaics. Please help me to split the article into two parts. It was great you mentioned famous Mokshans and Erzyans among 'Mordvins'. I'm still not good at using all Wikipedia tools but hope to improve in using them soon. Pls have a look at my rough description of Mokshan people (I put the link into the article 'Mordvins') and advise if we can settle the misunderstaning. Thanx in advance --Numulunj pilgae 08:42, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Hello. I would like to quote some discussion about the page move at User talk:Untifler:

First of all, it is absolutely incorrect to move "Morvins" to "Volgaic Finns", due to classification:

There are two general branches of the Finnic peoples in the region: Uralian Finns: Udmurts and Komi (1) and Volga Finns, including Mordvin peoples and Mari peoples, as well as Muroma, Meshchera and Merya in the Middle Ages (2). Volga Finns, in turn, are divided into Northern - Mari peoples (Hill, Meadow and Eastern; possibly this group also included Merya) and southern Volga Finns , which are Mordvin peoples Moksha and Erzya, and three subgroups, which are also belong either to Moksha or to Eryza; historically this group included Muroma and Meshchera, (however, it is disputed). The classification is such, but I m not sure that all terms I use are correct...

So, as you see, Mokshans and Eryzas are included firstly to the Mordvin peoples, and only then Mordvin peoples are included to the Volga Finns. Another dispute is "are Mokshans and Erzyans separate people, or subgroups only"? I really dont know, what POV prevails now. Surely, both POVs exist, and it should be mentioned in all articles. As for Maris, they are used to be divided to @subgroups@, not "peoples". Mainly, the concept of "two peoples" and disuse of "Mordvin" term is likely to Mordvin (sorry, Moksha and Erzya) schlars themselves, whereas Russian classification prefer to use cupola term "Mordvins".

As result, This page should be switched back to "Mordvins" or "Mordvin peoples", as this term is widely used, and "Volgaic Finns" should be rewritten to include more about Maris, and historical Volga Finnic peoples.--Üñţïf̣ļëŗ (see also:ә? Ә!) 08:03, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Because of this, I will be moving this page back to its original title, and will create a new Volga Finns page. Khoikhoi 09:45, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Agree with Untifler reg Volga Finns. This information can be easily proved by Encyclopaedia Britannica. As to Mordvin peoples pls look at these two docs from suri.ee below. The problem is first it was banned in USSR to use term 'finno-ugric' referring to Moksha and Erzya (political grounds). Mordvinian okrug first was planned to be named (Erzyano-mokshanskiy) Erzya and Moksha okrug but in 1930 some Mr. Surdin proposed to shorten the okrug name. This was the year this misunderstanding was born. Before 1930 term "Mordvins" was used referring to Erzya only (it can be easily proved starting from old Russian chronicles as Khazar II mentioned below). Generally situation is as following: Moksha and Erzya do not doubt they are separate peoples, just look at official Mordvinian Appeal but other sources do not give clear information what Mordvins are as they are not sure after all this confusion: one republic but two peoples or one people with two names, etc., look at suri.ee description. It is not the same as with Maris as all groups of Maris call themselves 'Mary' but Moksha and Erzya call themselves Moksha and Erzya. So, my conclusion is we may not leave this article as it or else this 70-years old confusion is gonna stay forever.--Numulunj pilgae 13:54, 2 July 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Numulunj pilgae (talk • contribs)

Moksha and Ersa Languages

My idea is to provide some kind of reliable article of both "Rava / Rav cousins" by expanding the historical article up to the October Revolution 1917. However, according to the Finnish sources both Ersas and Mokshas spoked up to 1242 nearly similar Proto Mirde language but with different dialects. In addition there were Burtta dialect which had more loan words from Skyytta ( Scythian ) language and by now dissapeared Metsheri, Muromi and Vjatitsi languages which of which Metsheri and Muromi languages were dialects of Proto Mirde / Merdi (men) language. Thus all these dialects might be placed under one title Mirde ( Merdi ) People up to 1242, the nearly total destruction of Mirde ( Merdi ) people by the Mongols during the Great Rebellion against the Mongol War Lords. Only after 1242 Moksha and Ersa languages separated from each other. The similar pattern was also found between Estonian and Finnish languages in the Baltic Sea Area. I agree that after 1242 both Ersa and Moksha languages should be described separately from each other. Metsheri language with refugees from Oka valley and Metsheri ( Russian version: Meshchorsk ) Lowland brought Metsheri influence to Moksha language. It is really a pity that the Russians had not taken any notes of separate Moksha and Ersa languages and called all under the name Mordva and even named the land as Mordovia. The same apply to the Big Russians who do not know their own history well in the Moskova area before the Mongol Invasion. What is known here in Finland is that the best of Mirde ( Merdi ) warriors, about 25.000 were executed by the Mongol War Lord Subutai when they refused to follow the Mongol Army west of Dinjeper ( Dnjeper ) after taking part of the conquering the Kyjev ( Kiev ) in December 1240. Then there is a big question mark how many of the Mokshas adopted with the refugee Metsheris and Muromis the Turkic Tatar language in 1242-1451 and were converted to the Musulmanni ( Islam ) Faith and escaped East of Rava and become known as Mishär ( Shining ) Tatars. But any way, the old religion Gods remained the same with both Ersa and Moksha languages with different variation names. Some of Mishär Tatars stayed West of Rava / Rav ( Volga ) and their descendants live still there in Mishär Tatar villages among the Mokshas and Ersas. One problem is also the great influence of pro Russian history writing which has been learned as a pure fact in the schools and universities. Ones again, this history of the peoples in the Rava / Rav Bend is one of the most complicated in land of Rosh ( Russia ). I think those who can nowadays be called Mordvians are those Russificated Mokshas and Ersas from Obranjosh ( Nizhnij Novgorod ) area who live in Nizhnij Novgorod Oblast and speak Russian as their primary language.

Peharps one can also found out if Vladimir Iljitsh Uljanin was of origin Moksha or Ersa from one of Uljanin named villages. His father changed his name from Uljanin to Uljanov. Maybe the most famous of Mordvins in modern history. Also old famous Mirde ( Princes ) Inazörs as Abram ( Obram ) and Purgaz are missing from the list.

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Dear Contributor and Numulunj pilgae,

First of all thank you very much for your contributions. Official sources do not provide correct and detailed info on Mokshan and Erzyan history. I'm sure it was not easy for you to collect so many interesting references and details on thir history. Nevertheless some hints and ideas are wrong. Actually Mokshas and Erzyas had different languages and different traditions since at least AD 1000. It can be proved by archelogical and linguistic data. In the same time they are close and in many old chronicles Moksha and Erzya referred to as Mordvins or Tatars or even Mordvin Tatars. It is pretty complicated now separating information related to Erzya only or Moksha only but is feasible. Hope we can work it out!--Moxelanus 11:24, 2 December 2007 (UTC) 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Why have removed clause about Erzua people?

Hello! There is a reasonable question why my clause about Erzia people has been redirected on Mordvins? Such people is not present, therefore, I consider, that it is not correct. эрзяне do not name itself a nickname and pseudo etnonims "mordvins". Especially on page of discussion quite correctly it is written - such people is not present. What for then to mix 4 people in a heap? As there are two languages - Moksha and Erya Languages, but "Mordovian" are not present. And a parameter of people is its language. I ask to explain your position. Many thanks. Erzianj jurnalist (talk) 18:46, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Mordvins

Term "moksherzyan" as well as "erzyamokshan" are rarely used in Moksha and Erzya newspapers when translating texts from Russian instead "Mordvins". Originally this was Erzya who referred to as Mordvins and it can be easily proved by old Russian chronicles and other medieval sources. After establishing Mordvinia okrug (later Mordvinian autonomous republic) many people (ethnic Moksha, Erzya, Shokhsa, Mishari Tatars, Russians etc.) who were born there and later moved to another place started to call themselves Mordvins as they originally came from Mordvinia.--Khazar II (talk) 20:37, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Mokshas are not mordvins

I am ethnic Moksha born in Mordovia. I think this is a total misunderstanding. If part of Mokshas live in Mordovia it doesn't mean Mokshas are Mordvins. If speaking of those who live in Mordovia - yes you can call those Erzyas, Mokshas, Tatars and Russians "Mordovians" but this not an ethnic unity, it is clear. What is the problem about my people. Moksha are people with their own language, traditions and culture but I can see information on Moksha only in article "Mordvins". Why? I saw history log, page "Moksha people" was even deleted by some user. This is vandalism! Kranch 17:53, 02 June 2008 (UTC)

It completely agree, it is vandalism! I am Erzya, and my ancestors were erzyans'. And language at us erzyan, any people mordva is not present also language too Mordovian. And that territorially Mordovia has included two ethnic nationalities is history a mistake because all over again wished to make district Erzjansko-Mokshanskiy, but have made Mordovian. I for returning of pages Erzya people and Moksha people, differently am not the free encyclopedia, and continuous dancing "under a pipe of authority". Thanks. Erzianj jurnalist (talk) 20:40, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Why don't we start by providing reliable sources instead of personal accounts. For example, the Mordvin article from Encyclopædia Britannica says, "They are divided into two dialect groups, the Moksha and Erzya." Khoikhoi 22:05, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Back to our discussion I would like to emphasize all reliable sources are just copying official Russian Federation information on RF administrative subdivision. Since there is Mordovia Republic we must admit there is ethnic population with the same name speaking Mordvin language. Mordvin is an alternative name for Erzya language see Ethnologue. Since Ethnologue is a reliable source we must redirect article Mordvin(s) to Erzia (people) respectively with proper explanation of this alternate name history background. --Khazar II (talk) 12:08, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Ethnologue has information on a lot of different languages, but they don't necessarily keep it up to date nor do they check their sources. The first translation of the Gospel into Erzya dates back to 1821 and the remainder of the New Testament to about 1827. For some reason Ethnologue claims a translation in 1824. Testament in Erzya from 1821 and 1827.

Perhaps, the fact that translations of literature and the literature of public education have been split in two for two centuries, and the fact that even today there are native publications in Erzya and Moksha but none in a language called Mordvin means something in terms of national identity. In the Mordovian Republic where the Mokshas, Shokshas, Erzyas and Teryukhans make up about one third of the population, Moksha-language publications include Moksha, Jaksterj täshtenä and Mokshenj pravda, and Erzya-language publications include Sjatko, Chilisema, (mixed Erzya and Russian) Erzian Mastor and Erzjanj pravda.Botuzhaleny-sodamo (talk) 12:56, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Why no one speaks Mordvinian? Mordvins do not exist

Please read this--Numulunj pilgae 15:51, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

um, we state it's an exonym. What is your problem? dab (𒁳) 17:42, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Dbachmann, If Ethnologue is a reliable sourse I would suggest to use exonym Mordvin for Erzya only and exonym Mordvin-Moksha for Moksha as it stated in Ethnologue. It is not a problem to collect at least this much info you now have in article Mordvins for Moksha people only. Hope it is now clear for all of us Moksha and Erzya are separate peoples speaking separate languages. Well, let us discuss what sources are reliable. Finno-Ugric Society materials hope are a reliable source, what about Helsinki and Mordvovian University materials? If it was a "broken English" in article Moksha people I guess you had to warn users they have to make appropriate amendments. Kranch 08:20, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Erzyans itself name erzya, instead of mordva (so name us other people!). It is not necessary to confuse: mokshans is moksha, erzyan is erzya, and mordva are people which live in territory of Mordovia, and this collective, instead of a nationality! Thanks for understanding. Erzianj jurnalist (talk) 10:55, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

it appears that the claim that Mordvins is an exonym was false. I have no added actual references to this article. We have a 19th century source stating that Mordvin is the native name. It is perhaps not used natively any more (reference?). It was clear from the beginning that Moksha and Erzya are different groups. The references we now have state that there are in fact five different Mordvin groups, of which Moksha and Erzya are the largest two. They are still treated together, under the heading "Mordvins", in every source we have. Now please feel free to quote further references, but be aware of WP:V and WP:RS. I have merged two stubs that didn't quote a single source. If you create stubs without sources, you need to except they'll be merged or deleted without further notice. If we find a monographic discussion of either group, we can of course still branch out a standalone article. It's all a matter of sources. dab (𒁳) 09:51, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

15 references/links in Russian wikipedia article ru:Мокша (народ) with every single word proved I believe by reliable sources. We can use them in English Wiki. Why five different Mordvin groups? You mean Shoksha, Qaratay, Teryukhan? They are not referred to as separate groups or peoples. Mordvin been never used natively and there is no equivalent neither in Moksha nor in Erzya. Moksha and Erzya are separate peoples but not groups. Let us discuss what sources are reliable. Pls have a look at Russian Wikipedia article Moksha people I will be happy to comment on most sources metioned. --Numulunj pilgae 18:05, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Ersas and Mokshas

It is sometimes difficult to be of Finno Ugrian origin. If the cultural differences are so great that those living in the western part of Rava / Rav upland against those living mainly in the eastern part of of the Rava / Rav upland that they cannot understand each others, this separation must have started sometimes during 900 - 1200. As outsider I suppose that an example of common language backround must be shown.

I show with example the difference between todays Finnish, Estonian, Komi, Udmurt, Eastern-Mari and Ersa languages on simple way. Here it comes.

• One is yksi in Finnish, yks in Estonian, tev in Komi, odug in Udmurt, ik in Mari, vejke (ve) in Ersa.
• Two is kaksi in Finnish, kaks in Estonian,kyk in Komi, kyk in Udmurt, kok in Mari, kavto in Ersa.
• Three is kolme in Finnish, kolm in Estonian, kuim in Komi, kuin in Udmurt, kum in Mari, kolmo in Ersa.
• Four is neljä in Finnish, neli in Estonian, nel in Komi, njul in Udmurt, nyl in Mari, nile in Ersa.
• Five is viisi in Finnish, viis in Estonian, vit in Komi, vit in Udmurt, vitsh in Mari, vetje in Ersa.
• Six is kuusi in Finnish, kuus in Estonian, kwat in Komi, kuat in Udmurt, kud in Mari, koto in Ersa.
• Seven is seitsemän in Finnish, seitsen in Estonian, sisem in Komi, sizjym in Udmurt, shym in Mari, sisem in Ersa.
• Eight is kahdeksan in Finnish, kaheksa in Estonian, kekjamus in Komi, tjamys in Udmurt, kandash in Mari, kavsko in Ersa.
• Nine is yhdeksän in Finnish, yheksä in Estonian, ekmus in Komi, ukmus in Udmurt, indesh in Mari, vejksje in Ersa.
• Ten is kymmenen in Finnish, kymmen in Estonia, das in Komi, das in Udmurt, lu in Mari, kemen in Ersa.
• Hundred is sata in Finnish, sada in Estonian, se in Komi, sju in Udmurt, sjado in Ersa.
• Thousand is tuhat in Finnish, tuhanne in Estonian, sjurs in Komi, sjurs in Udmurt, tjezha in Ersa.

I suppose that the difference between Ersa and Moksha is not so great than between Permian Komi and Baltic Finnish. I am not sure if the Estonian words are all in correct form, but as one can see they are very close of Finnish. Sata (hundred) in Finnish comes from ancient Persian language for a hundred.

If you are taken the cultural differences between Tver Karelians living at Ruameska 200 km north west of Moskova and True Finns living at Loimaa 65 north east of Turku I suppose that despite the common basic mother language they do not understand each others at ones, but within a month they found more and more common souding words despite of strong Russian language influence in Tver Karelian dialect. One have strong Greek Orthodox cultural backround and the other one has Lutherian cultural heritage. So what is really the difference between Ersas and Mokshas? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.113.117.248 (talk) 20:13, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Hi,

Difference between Moksha and Erzya is pretty big. Separation of Moksha probably began about 1500 BC. They had different burial traditons. See citation from László Klima "The Erza and the Moksha can be archaeologically distinguished by the differing orientation of their burials in ancient Mordvin cemeteries, as well as by the presence of various elements of the Erza and Moksha costume in ancient Mordvin cemeteries from the mid-1st century AD – in other words, the finds that can be associated with the ancestors of the Moksha and the Erza can be separated well before these two peoples are actually mentioned in the written sources." The numerals are almost the same.

• 1 - fkä;
• 2 - kafta;
• 3 - kolma
• 4 - nilä
• 5 - vetä
• 6 - kota
• 7 - sisäm
• 8 - kafksa
• 9 - vejxksa
• 10 - kemänj
• 100 - sjada
• 1000 - tjozhanj

such words as 'tavar', 'maksa', 'selmävedj' are easy-to-guess for a Finnish speaker

but

• time is 'shka' in Erzya and 'pingä' in Moksha
• lamb is 'reve' in Erzya and 'ucha' in Moksha
• love is 'vechkoma' in Erzya and 'keljgäma' in Moksha
• cow is 'skal' in Erzya and 'traks' in Moksha
• lovazha is 'bone' in Erzya and 'dead body' in Moksha, etc.

different number of cases, differencies in grammar and most of all in phonetics and pronunciation/intonation. They always speak Russian when contacting each other, very rarely speak either Moksha or Erzya and only if all speakers know this or that language. The difference is in hair colour, even faces but mostly mentality. Historically they had different allies and been at war several times in the Middle Ages. After Christinization both had became Orthodox christians but in fact continued with their old pagan rites named "koj (law, canon)". Marriage to Erzya woman was always a taboo for Moksha and vice versa. Even now Russian or Tatar spouse seems to be preferrable. When Lutheran church came to Mordovia in 1990s they had to split it into Moksha and Erzya Lutheran Churches. Erzyas are vivid and active, Mokshas are calm and stubborn. That is why we say we have nothing in common. --Khazar II (talk) 23:06, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Information in this article is incorrect

Erzyas do not live in the basin of the Moksha River. Separation of Erzya and Moksha is not dated 8th century, it happened much earlier. Qaratay ancestors didn't live in the territory of Tatarstan and were not assimilated by Tatars. What sources confirm this dubiuos information? --Numulunj pilgae 08:18, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

can we calm down please?

There is no reason to turn this into a wikidrama. Here are the facts:

• there are two peoples of Volga-Finns, the Moksha and the Erzya, which are discussed together as "Mordvins" in ethnological literature.
• It isn't disputed that they are actually two people, it's just that they are mostly discussed together. This article clearly states that they are separate groups, and that "Mordvins" is an exonym.
• the Moksha people and Erzya people articles were unreferenced stubs which both basically just said that each is a group of Mordvins. No information is lost by merging these stubs into this article here.

There isn't a dispute. This is simply a question of, should we keep a sub-stub at Moksha people, or should we turn it into a {{R with possibilities}} until somebody sits down and presents references dealing with the Moksha people specifically? For the record, these are the articles as I found them: [1] [2]. Not a single verifiable reference. The burden to present sources dedicated to the respective groups lies with whoever insists on establishing these as standalone articles. --dab (𒁳) 08:58, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

ok, so at least according to Latham Mordvin isn't an exonym at all, but a self-designation meaning "men". I have updated the article accordingly. --dab (𒁳) 09:25, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

I believe we all are calm like camels.

• "there are two peoples of Volga-Finns, the Moksha and the Erzya,which are discussed together as "Mordvins" in ethnological literature" Agree. But they are not groups. If Mordvins is an exonym ther is no room for two. Why not to use last period of time exonyms Moksha Mordvin and Erzya Mordvin. Exonym Mordvin for both Moksha and Erzya last time used as you noted in 19 c.
• we should keep a sub-stub of course. We could at least discuss sources on Moksha people discussion page. Please start checking those mentioned in Russian Wiki.
• Agree there were no references. Will add them. I insist on establishing these as standalone articles!
• Judith Latham? Well ok. I am Moksha beleive me Mordvin doesn't mean men in my language. It means nothing. --Numulunj pilgae 18:04, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Just a small correction to Dbachmann's comment: there are actually three peoples of Volga Finns, see Maris. Khoikhoi 23:39, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, not turn this to eternal drama between the Finno - Ugrians

My meaning was not at all provocate anyone, just show some facts. I am keen interested to know when the separation between the Ersa and Moksha languages really happened. All available written sources before 1250 talk of Mordvas in various forms, not about Ersa and Moksha peoples. The names have always been problem for "outlandish" writers, such as Marco Polo and Plano Caprini. These are the only available western observers written sources. There are some notable describtions of the Varjags in Itil Bolgharia written by Persian and Arab travellers, but the mentions of Mordvas play a side role in their describtions. The Nestor Chronicle can be forgotten as a reliable source, because he and his fellow monks wrote down every lie which were told to them. Curiously, after this "First Kievan Chronicle" it took more than 700 hundred years before next notable Russian historian appeared in the scene. And he was Mordva as he described himself to his fellow members in St.Petersburg´s societies. And this is a written fact in history. At least I have never claimed that Ersas lived on the cource of Moksha River. The lived east of Mokshas who inhabited among others the course of Moksha from the confluence of Oka to its upper course in now a days Penza Oblast.

What I am missing in main article or sub article (just to be created) is the more detailed describtion in which were and are the Ersa and Moksha and Misär Tatar inhabited villages.

From other sources is well known that Shokshas (Russian way to write the name) were Ersas living west of Moksha River but east of Jertish River. Surrounded in north by Russian built fortificated places just like Sorminskij Majdan, Polhovskij Majdan, in west by Poljanki Majdan and in the middle of the area Sakajevskij Majdan. I can find the following villages and settlements;

• Takushevo, Vendenjapino, Nagornaja, Sadovyj, Star.Katsejevka, Beresovo, Feklusov, Nov.Katsejevka, Aleksandrovka, Telimerki, Krasn.Jar, Vjasga, Shelubej, Mokshanka, Bereznjak, Kurajevo, Narobatovo, Bajevo, Tengushevo, Bashkirtsy, Vitskidejevo, Atenino, Dudnikovo, Sakajevskij Majdan, Sakajevo, Kulikovo, Poljarnaja Zvezda, Shiromasovo, Shoksha, Mal.Shoksha, Melsetjevo, and Kolomasovo.

Which of these were Russian and Ersa villages? It is this kind of information the main article needs. Of course this is only my opinion, but in general little is known, too little, of Mordvins (which should cover all).

Then, Qaratai is newly formed Tatar language version. Older (in latin alphabets) is Karatai. At least I have never claimed that Karatais originate from Tatars. They are Tatarized (Ersa or Moksha?) Mordvins (in Finnish: Mordvalaiset are divided to Ersa and Moksa). There are wild claims presented that they originates from Hasaris and are of Moses religion in faith.

When just looked to maps I found these Karatai villages:

On the west side of Rava in Tatarstan; Zajevrazhnij-Karatai, Mordovskij-Karatai. Both population 101-500. East side of Itil; Mukshin-Karatai, and Zaj-Karatai, the former 101-500 inhabitants, the latter 1001- inhabitants. In addition there is a village Karashai-Saklovo near Tljantse-Tamak, but this might not be Karatai village.

Can we all agree that Terjuhans are of origin Mordvins (Ersa & Moksha) who speak Russian as their first language and have no knowledge of Ersa or Moksha language or just a little.

Could you just include in article a mention Saransk / Saran Osh was founded at the site of former Russian fortification Atemarsk in 1641. Town from 1651. Thank you. I will expand the article of Inäzor Purgas. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.113.117.248 (talk) 17:54, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Dear Contributor, I didn't mean you saying "This article is incorrect". I meant the article Mordvins. It is all very interesting you wrote about. Your information is very precise and seems you spent quite long time to pick up such details. Will try to check and comment on which exactly villages are Shokshan. Still thinking over all that information you provided here. Don't you have material to start article of Mokshan Prince Puresh? " Numulunj pilgae-(Talk)

Some information is available of Inäzor Puresh as well, but not much. The main thing what made both Inäzors enemies was the control of the North - South trading route. Purgaz, who controlled the confluence of Rava and Oka collected taxes from traders from Bagdad Califate, Byzantium (East Roman Empire) and Persia when they passed Obran Osh. Puresh who controlled partly the Baltic - Black Sea trading route from Oka to upper Don wanted to share the whole control of the whole route not only the Baltic - Black Sea trade. But as far as it is known, both took part to prevent the Mongol army to enter to Itil Bolgharia in 1223 which they actually did in the Battle of Itil and Subutai had to retreat back to steppes. This short armistice did not last long and Puresh is said to be killed in the fierce battle of Bundaz (also known as the Battle of Ozuga) at Sura River at the site of now a days Zolotarjevka near Penza where Mongols killed all the defenders (both Mokshas and Burttas) and complete destroyed town of Ozuga. There is not mention of any kind in Russian old sources, but the Russian Princes did not participate in this battle in August 1237. Inäzor Puresh army stopped the Mongols for three whole months at Sura River. This battle is still full of unsolved mysteries. As late as in 1980´s there were found skulls with holes, armours of unidentified metal (mysterious Altai and Ural blacksmiths?), part of skeletons belonging to Mongol army having Syrian made krusifacs, spearheads, arrow heads etc. Even skeletons of war horses. Only after the battle of Bundaz the Mongols advanced to the gates of Räsan, the next town to fall. But this hard resistance offered by Puresh convinced Batu Kaani (Khan) to offer negociations with Inäzor Purgas and offer alliance to join the Mongol army what the Ersas did. I have not traced any information of Inäzor Purgaz death. Where it happened and when it happened from western sources. Plano Carpini travelled on his voyage to meet Kaanien Kaani (Khan of Khans) at Karakorum through Bundaz battlefield and he gives some information which peoples were under Mongol rule, but one have to be real expert to realise which name he gives means which people. He mentions also Sarasens which could mean the Mokshas. Magyars can easily be identified from the text. Ones before had the Mongols suffered a hard set back. The "devils from forests with magic powers" had stopped them somewhere in Siberia. Presumably the Evenki and Nenetsi (Samojed) warriors in wild forests. This defeat made Mongol War Lords to be afraid of forests. This saved most of the Finno Ugrians (and as well Novgorod) who lived in the conferious forest zone from Mongol attacks.

Yes there are some information collected in old Finnish literature of "The Volga Finns on the Western Roads" consedering the period of Romans, Gothos, Markkomannis and Hunnis in Bohemia and Pannonia, even their battleshout in Pannonia is described from Roman sources to sound "Marha, marha". I give all details if there is any help to improve the article.

You have forgot one important and trustable source. The Estonian Tartu University Finno Ugrian Studies. They continued after the World War Two period up to 1991. Before that the Alexander University in Helsinki up to 1917, Later University of Helsinki 1920 -1944, and Debrecen University in Hungary, all three now "snakes nests" as described recently.

Mordvins on Finnish compiled sources

I just checked out the list of the maps which are worth of publishing. As told earlier Eino Kuussaari has the best known collection of maps in his "Suomen Suvun Tiet". Map II shows whole are inhabited by Finno Ugrians in period to 400 BC. Map 8 shows the general outlook of different cultures in the area c. 1000 - 500 BC. Map 10 shows the expansion of Nenetsis to Siberia. Map 11 shows the situation of Finno Ugrians in Central Russia as described by Herodotos about 500 BC. Map 12 shows general outlook during the time of Scythians. Map 13 shows the the expansion of Finnish (and Volga) tribes from from Oka and Valdai to Gulf of Liivi and area south of Niemen in Poland. Map 14 shows the area of Proto Permia. Map 15 shows the movements of Hunns and its effects to the Finno Ugrian tribes. Map 16 based to map published by P.I.Jakobi (Russian Geographical Society´s Publications XXXII St.Petersburg 1907) of the limit of the area inhabited by the Finno Ugrians at Oka and Voronezh rivers. Map III shows the overall situation from 400 - 0 BC. Map 18 overall situation showing Europe by the time of Caesar Trajanus 98 - 117 AD. Map 24 shows the situation in 450 AD during the Great Peoples Wandering. Map IV shows overall situation of Finno Ugric peoples in c.400 AD. Map 27 shows the expansion of East Slavs c.400 - 900. Map 28 shows Livonia and Curonia with Finnish origin place names. Map 29 shows most important river trading routes in Russia. Map 30 shows how Volga Finns are becoming more and more isolated from Baltic Finns. Map V shows development up to year 600. Map VI Bolgars and Slavs are closing the Finno Ugrian settled lands. Map 36 Finnish related peoples trading areas and the effect with fur trade. Map 37 The wandering of Hungarians from Ural to Pannonia. Map VII The Finno Ugrians in 800 - 900. Etc up to map 65 Mordva Autonomous Republic 1934. Shows also areas inhabited by the Mordvins outside their admistrational area in nearby areas.

The wandering to west is loaned from Strabo, Tacitus, Polish historian J.Rozwadowski, Ptolemaios, Jordanes, Jacobi. The particiation to the Attila´s battle at Charlemange in 451 is described in at least 15 studies. Bohemia, Pannonia episode to the Roman historians collected by Yrjö-Koskinen. The question is of Limigantes as the Romans called them, which were Volga Finns. Episode of Herulis which wandered along Ostrogoths and returned back to Volga area in 512 is by Jordanes and Byzantium written sources.

Also intersting is an article in Carelia Magazine, Petroskoi Nr 4/2002 by Vladimir Afanasjev "Venäläiset ja suomensukuiset: saman kehdon lapsia" (Russians and Finnish kin: Children of same cradle.) For newer history Carelia Nr. 6/2000 Sergei Verigin: Karjalais-Suomalaisen liittotasavallan perustaminen ja "uusien alueiden" hyväksikäyttö. (The foundation of Karelian-Finnish Federal Soviet Republic and its economical use 1940-1941). There is published the Decision dated 28.05.1940 by Communist Party Central Committee to transfer 20.000 and in 1941 also 20.000 Mordvins, Chuvasis, Tataria to newly gained areas (from Finland) to Karelian Isthmus and Ladoga Karelia. I suppose nothing of this plan has been published in Saransk.

Maybe the Black Death 1347 - 1350 is worth of mentioning because it killed half of all population in Volga area.