Talk:Mordvins

Mordvin (Mirde) peoples

The name of this section is rather dubious. Everyone wants to find an Erzya or Moksha link between the exonym Mordvin and a united people. Other Finno-Ugrian languages such as Mari, Udmurt and Komi have words marij, murt and mort which mean "person". The only word in Erzya or Moksha that comes close in form is the word "mir'd'e". This word, however, only bears the meaning "husband, male spouse". Yes, the Russian word "муж" is also translated as husband. If you want to look at definitions, then just take a gander at Mordwinisches Wörterbuch from the collection of dialects of the Moksha and Erzya by Heikki Paasonen (1990, 1992, 1994, 1996).Botuzhaleny-sodamo (talk) 12:15, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your info. I go sooner or later to Helsinki University Library. Finns have an old loan word marras of Baltic (Latvian / Lithuanian origin) for person which goes to the same category.

This seems to be a difficult task to provide the correct list of all Mordvin peoples. The first written mention of them is made by Herodotos c. 425-430 BC. under the name of Androfags, living west of Budins. According to old research of Finnish Eero Kuussaari published first in 1935 in Helsinki, where he compared the names written down by Herodotos to the areas where Finno Ugrian peoples lived behind the Scythians, he came to conclusion that Androfags were Proto Mordvins or to be correctly named Proto Mirdes (the humans). Melanklains were Proto Maris and Budins were Proto Ud-murts. This seems to be even today the most reliable source. Nobody have been able to prove his theory wrong. Herodotos understood wrongly the name Mirde or Mordi and named them in Greek language Androfags (man eaters) after what the Greeks living in the colonies in the northern shore of the Black Sea told him. Otherwise his list of "The peoples behind the Scythians between Danube and Don is quite accurace when compared to later historians, as example to Roman Mela in writing in c.100 AD.

During the times more and more evidence had been collected of Mirde people by others, later existed, historians of different ethnic origin. Usually the first written mention is said to be by Jordanes c. 350 AD. in his Ermanarik peoples. Jordanes listed Gothos, Scythas (meaning Slavonic peoples), Thiudos, Inaunxis, Vasinas, Broncas (or Bovoncas), Merens, Mordens (Remnis), Imnis, and Caris to be ruled by Ermanarik. This is the first written mention, according to the later produced Russian historical version, of the Mirdes which they called Mordva, but behind their back secretly "Poperetshje" (set across).

Isigonus Niceanus told of Androfags "who drunk from their killed enemies skulls and used their killed enemies head skins for their magician seremonies". In 950 their land (The Rava / Rav heights) ie. the west bank, called Mordia by Arab historians. Marco Polo describes of Mordui and Plano Carpini of Morduani. All these were connected to Latin word Mort (Death), meaning people who brings the sure death to their opponents. However, there were (later) several Mirde peoples who spoked different dialects of Proto Mirde (Mordva) language. Meshtsheras who lived in the low land forests and bogs between Kliazma and Oka Rivers. They were the main group of inhabitants of ancient Muromi, Meshtsheri Hillfort highland area and Räsan (Russian version of Räsan become later Riazan or Rjazan) principalities. Mokshas who lived in western part of the Rava (Volga) Heights, and Erzas who lived in the eastern part of the Rav (Volga) heights. South of both these poeples lived little known Burttas which may have been mixture of Mokshas and Erzas, mainly in the Tambov, Penza, and Saratuva / Saratuba areas along the Rivers Erzula and along Rava Igriz east of Rav River. This was the southern limit which was inhabited by the Finno Ugrians in Rava / Rav (later Volga) River area.

During the time of the Great Peoples Wandering, some Finnish sources, based to old names of the peoples in Eastern Central Europe, suggest that at least part of the Mirdes joined the wanderers and eventually settled themselves to Pannonia and Bohemia with other ancient Finno Ugrian tribes.

The first major chance happened in c. 650 when the three Hunnic tribes which later formed the Itil Bolghars penetrated along the east bank of Itil (Volga) to the south of the confluence of the Itil (Volga) and Kama Rivers and formed there their Kingdom of Great Itil (Volga) Bolgharia. The Mirdes who lived on the Rava Heights had close connections with the Bolghars and this peaceful connection remained up to the destruction of Itil Bolgharia in 1237. But the main threat come from the western direction. As a result of the threat of wandering steppe peoples, the Kievan Slavs started to wander eastward to the west bank of River Don (Tanais) middle course. This happened c. 700-800. After the defeat of Vjatitsis (another Valgia (Volga) Finnish people) to Kievan Prince Svjatoslav in fearce battles in 965 and 966 and to the Vladimir I in 981, the Slavs entered in larger numbers to the upper course of River Oka and established their first settlements to Räsan principality. Räsan, and later Muromi become their major places with first direct trade connection with the Merdi peoples. It is from this period when the first Mirde saying of the Slavs have been preserved to history: "minor in arms but plenty of men". In the north the Norsemen origin Slav Princes with assistance of new Norsemen from Baltic Sea area entered to Meriland (Merjaland), north of the Mirdeland, and entered from the north to the Kliazma River and founded Vladimir, or actually Volodmerj (Ruler of Merja) in the place of former Meriland capital Rosta. This was the typical Slav pattern to settle themselves, at first in small numbers, to existing Finno Ugrian villages, trading settlements and even near hillforts to have protection, but then inwandere in greater numbers and settle themselves in their new built Slav villages and outnumber the existing (good in arms but minor in men) Finno Ugrian population. This method of Slavonic penetration has continued ever since. However, some historians locate, according to the name, Rosta to the site of Rostov at the shore of Lake Nero, which was earlier in Finno Urgian times called Lake Mero or Meri after the Meris, "The people of great lakes".

Created image for the article

I chose the 4 most famous and recognizable Mordvins and created an image with them. I think it looks good and there are no license problems with it, so now this article to has it's image. M.V.E.i. 16:57, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

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Dear contributors, Very much appreciate your efforts but. There is a misunderstanding in the very title of the article. I am Mokshan and believe I never seen people you call Mordvins. Still there are no ethnic Czechoslovaks or Khanty-Mansis. Russians never cared about that and used to call Mokshans and Erzyans just Mordvins. In fact believe me Mokshans do not understand Erzyan language though both languages are close as they are Mordvinic branch of Fenno-Volgaics. Please help me to split the article into two parts. It was great you mentioned famous Mokshans and Erzyans among 'Mordvins'. I'm still not good at using all Wikipedia tools but hope to improve in using them soon. Pls have a look at my rough description of Mokshan people (I put the link into the article 'Mordvins') and advise if we can settle the misunderstaning. Thanx in advance --Numulunj pilgae 08:42, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Hello. I would like to quote some discussion about the page move at User talk:Untifler:

First of all, it is absolutely incorrect to move "Morvins" to "Volgaic Finns", due to classification:

There are two general branches of the Finnic peoples in the region: Uralian Finns: Udmurts and Komi (1) and Volga Finns, including Mordvin peoples and Mari peoples, as well as Muroma, Meshchera and Merya in the Middle Ages (2). Volga Finns, in turn, are divided into Northern - Mari peoples (Hill, Meadow and Eastern; possibly this group also included Merya) and southern Volga Finns , which are Mordvin peoples Moksha and Erzya, and three subgroups, which are also belong either to Moksha or to Eryza; historically this group included Muroma and Meshchera, (however, it is disputed). The classification is such, but I m not sure that all terms I use are correct...

So, as you see, Mokshans and Eryzas are included firstly to the Mordvin peoples, and only then Mordvin peoples are included to the Volga Finns. Another dispute is "are Mokshans and Erzyans separate people, or subgroups only"? I really dont know, what POV prevails now. Surely, both POVs exist, and it should be mentioned in all articles. As for Maris, they are used to be divided to @subgroups@, not "peoples". Mainly, the concept of "two peoples" and disuse of "Mordvin" term is likely to Mordvin (sorry, Moksha and Erzya) schlars themselves, whereas Russian classification prefer to use cupola term "Mordvins".

As result, This page should be switched back to "Mordvins" or "Mordvin peoples", as this term is widely used, and "Volgaic Finns" should be rewritten to include more about Maris, and historical Volga Finnic peoples.--Üñţïf̣ļëŗ (see also:ә? Ә!) 08:03, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Because of this, I will be moving this page back to its original title, and will create a new Volga Finns page. Khoikhoi 09:45, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Agree with Untifler reg Volga Finns. This information can be easily proved by Encyclopaedia Britannica. As to Mordvin peoples pls look at these two docs from suri.ee below. The problem is first it was banned in USSR to use term 'finno-ugric' referring to Moksha and Erzya (political grounds). Mordvinian okrug first was planned to be named (Erzyano-mokshanskiy) Erzya and Moksha okrug but in 1930 some Mr. Surdin proposed to shorten the okrug name. This was the year this misunderstanding was born. Before 1930 term "Mordvins" was used referring to Erzya only (it can be easily proved starting from old Russian chronicles as Khazar II mentioned below). Generally situation is as following: Moksha and Erzya do not doubt they are separate peoples, just look at official Mordvinian Appeal but other sources do not give clear information what Mordvins are as they are not sure after all this confusion: one republic but two peoples or one people with two names, etc., look at suri.ee description. It is not the same as with Maris as all groups of Maris call themselves 'Mary' but Moksha and Erzya call themselves Moksha and Erzya. So, my conclusion is we may not leave this article as it or else this 70-years old confusion is gonna stay forever.--Numulunj pilgae 13:54, 2 July 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Numulunj pilgae (talk • contribs)

Moksha and Ersa Languages

My idea is to provide some kind of reliable article of both "Rava / Rav cousins" by expanding the historical article up to the October Revolution 1917. However, according to the Finnish sources both Ersas and Mokshas spoked up to 1242 nearly similar Proto Mirde language but with different dialects. In addition there were Burtta dialect which had more loan words from Skyytta ( Scythian ) language and by now dissapeared Metsheri, Muromi and Vjatitsi languages which of which Metsheri and Muromi languages were dialects of Proto Mirde / Merdi (men) language. Thus all these dialects might be placed under one title Mirde ( Merdi ) People up to 1242, the nearly total destruction of Mirde ( Merdi ) people by the Mongols during the Great Rebellion against the Mongol War Lords. Only after 1242 Moksha and Ersa languages separated from each other. The similar pattern was also found between Estonian and Finnish languages in the Baltic Sea Area. I agree that after 1242 both Ersa and Moksha languages should be described separately from each other. Metsheri language with refugees from Oka valley and Metsheri ( Russian version: Meshchorsk ) Lowland brought Metsheri influence to Moksha language. It is really a pity that the Russians had not taken any notes of separate Moksha and Ersa languages and called all under the name Mordva and even named the land as Mordovia. The same apply to the Big Russians who do not know their own history well in the Moskova area before the Mongol Invasion. What is known here in Finland is that the best of Mirde ( Merdi ) warriors, about 25.000 were executed by the Mongol War Lord Subutai when they refused to follow the Mongol Army west of Dinjeper ( Dnjeper ) after taking part of the conquering the Kyjev ( Kiev ) in December 1240. Then there is a big question mark how many of the Mokshas adopted with the refugee Metsheris and Muromis the Turkic Tatar language in 1242-1451 and were converted to the Musulmanni ( Islam ) Faith and escaped East of Rava and become known as Mishär ( Shining ) Tatars. But any way, the old religion Gods remained the same with both Ersa and Moksha languages with different variation names. Some of Mishär Tatars stayed West of Rava / Rav ( Volga ) and their descendants live still there in Mishär Tatar villages among the Mokshas and Ersas. One problem is also the great influence of pro Russian history writing which has been learned as a pure fact in the schools and universities. Ones again, this history of the peoples in the Rava / Rav Bend is one of the most complicated in land of Rosh ( Russia ). I think those who can nowadays be called Mordvians are those Russificated Mokshas and Ersas from Obranjosh ( Nizhnij Novgorod ) area who live in Nizhnij Novgorod Oblast and speak Russian as their primary language.

Peharps one can also found out if Vladimir Iljitsh Uljanin was of origin Moksha or Ersa from one of Uljanin named villages. His father changed his name from Uljanin to Uljanov. Maybe the most famous of Mordvins in modern history. Also old famous Mirde ( Princes ) Inazörs as Abram ( Obram ) and Purgaz are missing from the list.

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Dear Contributor and Numulunj pilgae,

First of all thank you very much for your contributions. Official sources do not provide correct and detailed info on Mokshan and Erzyan history. I'm sure it was not easy for you to collect so many interesting references and details on thir history. Nevertheless some hints and ideas are wrong. Actually Mokshas and Erzyas had different languages and different traditions since at least AD 1000. It can be proved by archelogical and linguistic data. In the same time they are close and in many old chronicles Moksha and Erzya referred to as Mordvins or Tatars or even Mordvin Tatars. It is pretty complicated now separating information related to Erzya only or Moksha only but is feasible. Hope we can work it out!--Moxelanus 11:24, 2 December 2007 (UTC) 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Why have removed clause about Erzua people?

Hello! There is a reasonable question why my clause about Erzia people has been redirected on Mordvins? Such people is not present, therefore, I consider, that it is not correct. эрзяне do not name itself a nickname and pseudo etnonims "mordvins". Especially on page of discussion quite correctly it is written - such people is not present. What for then to mix 4 people in a heap? As there are two languages - Moksha and Erya Languages, but "Mordovian" are not present. And a parameter of people is its language. I ask to explain your position. Many thanks. Erzianj jurnalist (talk) 18:46, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Mordvins

Term "moksherzyan" as well as "erzyamokshan" are rarely used in Moksha and Erzya newspapers when translating texts from Russian instead "Mordvins". Originally this was Erzya who referred to as Mordvins and it can be easily proved by old Russian chronicles and other medieval sources. After establishing Mordvinia okrug (later Mordvinian autonomous republic) many people (ethnic Moksha, Erzya, Shokhsa, Mishari Tatars, Russians etc.) who were born there and later moved to another place started to call themselves Mordvins as they originally came from Mordvinia.--Khazar II (talk) 20:37, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Mokshas are not mordvins

I am ethnic Moksha born in Mordovia. I think this is a total misunderstanding. If part of Mokshas live in Mordovia it doesn't mean Mokshas are Mordvins. If speaking of those who live in Mordovia - yes you can call those Erzyas, Mokshas, Tatars and Russians "Mordovians" but this not an ethnic unity, it is clear. What is the problem about my people. Moksha are people with their own language, traditions and culture but I can see information on Moksha only in article "Mordvins". Why? I saw history log, page "Moksha people" was even deleted by some user. This is vandalism! Kranch 17:53, 02 June 2008 (UTC)

It completely agree, it is vandalism! I am Erzya, and my ancestors were erzyans'. And language at us erzyan, any people mordva is not present also language too Mordovian. And that territorially Mordovia has included two ethnic nationalities is history a mistake because all over again wished to make district Erzjansko-Mokshanskiy, but have made Mordovian. I for returning of pages Erzya people and Moksha people, differently am not the free encyclopedia, and continuous dancing "under a pipe of authority". Thanks. Erzianj jurnalist (talk) 20:40, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Why don't we start by providing reliable sources instead of personal accounts. For example, the Mordvin article from Encyclopædia Britannica says, "They are divided into two dialect groups, the Moksha and Erzya." Khoikhoi 22:05, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Back to our discussion I would like to emphasize all reliable sources are just copying official Russian Federation information on RF administrative subdivision. Since there is Mordovia Republic we must admit there is ethnic population with the same name speaking Mordvin language. Mordvin is an alternative name for Erzya language see Ethnologue. Since Ethnologue is a reliable source we must redirect article Mordvin(s) to Erzia (people) respectively with proper explanation of this alternate name history background. --Khazar II (talk) 12:08, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Ethnologue has information on a lot of different languages, but they don't necessarily keep it up to date nor do they check their sources. The first translation of the Gospel into Erzya dates back to 1821 and the remainder of the New Testament to about 1827. For some reason Ethnologue claims a translation in 1824. Testament in Erzya from 1821 and 1827.

Perhaps, the fact that translations of literature and the literature of public education have been split in two for two centuries, and the fact that even today there are native publications in Erzya and Moksha but none in a language called Mordvin means something in terms of national identity. In the Mordovian Republic where the Mokshas, Shokshas, Erzyas and Teryukhans make up about one third of the population, Moksha-language publications include Moksha, Jaksterj täshtenä and Mokshenj pravda, and Erzya-language publications include Sjatko, Chilisema, (mixed Erzya and Russian) Erzian Mastor and Erzjanj pravda.Botuzhaleny-sodamo (talk) 12:56, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Why no one speaks Mordvinian? Mordvins do not exist

Please read this--Numulunj pilgae 15:51, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

um, we state it's an exonym. What is your problem? dab (𒁳) 17:42, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Dbachmann, If Ethnologue is a reliable sourse I would suggest to use exonym Mordvin for Erzya only and exonym Mordvin-Moksha for Moksha as it stated in Ethnologue. It is not a problem to collect at least this much info you now have in article Mordvins for Moksha people only. Hope it is now clear for all of us Moksha and Erzya are separate peoples speaking separate languages. Well, let us discuss what sources are reliable. Finno-Ugric Society materials hope are a reliable source, what about Helsinki and Mordvovian University materials? If it was a "broken English" in article Moksha people I guess you had to warn users they have to make appropriate amendments. Kranch 08:20, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Erzyans itself name erzya, instead of mordva (so name us other people!). It is not necessary to confuse: mokshans is moksha, erzyan is erzya, and mordva are people which live in territory of Mordovia, and this collective, instead of a nationality! Thanks for understanding. Erzianj jurnalist (talk) 10:55, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

it appears that the claim that Mordvins is an exonym was false. I have no added actual references to this article. We have a 19th century source stating that Mordvin is the native name. It is perhaps not used natively any more (reference?). It was clear from the beginning that Moksha and Erzya are different groups. The references we now have state that there are in fact five different Mordvin groups, of which Moksha and Erzya are the largest two. They are still treated together, under the heading "Mordvins", in every source we have. Now please feel free to quote further references, but be aware of WP:V and WP:RS. I have merged two stubs that didn't quote a single source. If you create stubs without sources, you need to except they'll be merged or deleted without further notice. If we find a monographic discussion of either group, we can of course still branch out a standalone article. It's all a matter of sources. dab (𒁳) 09:51, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

15 references/links in Russian wikipedia article ru:Мокша (народ) with every single word proved I believe by reliable sources. We can use them in English Wiki. Why five different Mordvin groups? You mean Shoksha, Qaratay, Teryukhan? They are not referred to as separate groups or peoples. Mordvin been never used natively and there is no equivalent neither in Moksha nor in Erzya. Moksha and Erzya are separate peoples but not groups. Let us discuss what sources are reliable. Pls have a look at Russian Wikipedia article Moksha people I will be happy to comment on most sources metioned. --Numulunj pilgae 18:05, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Ersas and Mokshas

It is sometimes difficult to be of Finno Ugrian origin. If the cultural differences are so great that those living in the western part of Rava / Rav upland against those living mainly in the eastern part of of the Rava / Rav upland that they cannot understand each others, this separation must have started sometimes during 900 - 1200. As outsider I suppose that an example of common language backround must be shown.

I show with example the difference between todays Finnish, Estonian, Komi, Udmurt, Eastern-Mari and Ersa languages on simple way. Here it comes.

• One is yksi in Finnish, yks in Estonian, tev in Komi, odug in Udmurt, ik in Mari, vejke (ve) in Ersa.
• Two is kaksi in Finnish, kaks in Estonian,kyk in Komi, kyk in Udmurt, kok in Mari, kavto in Ersa.
• Three is kolme in Finnish, kolm in Estonian, kuim in Komi, kuin in Udmurt, kum in Mari, kolmo in Ersa.
• Four is neljä in Finnish, neli in Estonian, nel in Komi, njul in Udmurt, nyl in Mari, nile in Ersa.
• Five is viisi in Finnish, viis in Estonian, vit in Komi, vit in Udmurt, vitsh in Mari, vetje in Ersa.
• Six is kuusi in Finnish, kuus in Estonian, kwat in Komi, kuat in Udmurt, kud in Mari, koto in Ersa.
• Seven is seitsemän in Finnish, seitsen in Estonian, sisem in Komi, sizjym in Udmurt, shym in Mari, sisem in Ersa.
• Eight is kahdeksan in Finnish, kaheksa in Estonian, kekjamus in Komi, tjamys in Udmurt, kandash in Mari, kavsko in Ersa.
• Nine is yhdeksän in Finnish, yheksä in Estonian, ekmus in Komi, ukmus in Udmurt, indesh in Mari, vejksje in Ersa.
• Ten is kymmenen in Finnish, kymmen in Estonia, das in Komi, das in Udmurt, lu in Mari, kemen in Ersa.
• Hundred is sata in Finnish, sada in Estonian, se in Komi, sju in Udmurt, sjado in Ersa.
• Thousand is tuhat in Finnish, tuhanne in Estonian, sjurs in Komi, sjurs in Udmurt, tjezha in Ersa.

I suppose that the difference between Ersa and Moksha is not so great than between Permian Komi and Baltic Finnish. I am not sure if the Estonian words are all in correct form, but as one can see they are very close of Finnish. Sata (hundred) in Finnish comes from ancient Persian language for a hundred.

If you are taken the cultural differences between Tver Karelians living at Ruameska 200 km north west of Moskova and True Finns living at Loimaa 65 north east of Turku I suppose that despite the common basic mother language they do not understand each others at ones, but within a month they found more and more common souding words despite of strong Russian language influence in Tver Karelian dialect. One have strong Greek Orthodox cultural backround and the other one has Lutherian cultural heritage. So what is really the difference between Ersas and Mokshas? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.113.117.248 (talk) 20:13, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Hi,

Difference between Moksha and Erzya is pretty big. Separation of Moksha probably began about 1500 BC. They had different burial traditons. See citation from László Klima "The Erza and the Moksha can be archaeologically distinguished by the differing orientation of their burials in ancient Mordvin cemeteries, as well as by the presence of various elements of the Erza and Moksha costume in ancient Mordvin cemeteries from the mid-1st century AD – in other words, the finds that can be associated with the ancestors of the Moksha and the Erza can be separated well before these two peoples are actually mentioned in the written sources." The numerals are almost the same.

• 1 - fkä;
• 2 - kafta;
• 3 - kolma
• 4 - nilä
• 5 - vetä
• 6 - kota
• 7 - sisäm
• 8 - kafksa
• 9 - vejxksa
• 10 - kemänj
• 100 - sjada
• 1000 - tjozhanj

such words as 'tavar', 'maksa', 'selmävedj' are easy-to-guess for a Finnish speaker

but

• time is 'shka' in Erzya and 'pingä' in Moksha, aika in Finnish
• lamb is 'reve' in Erzya and 'ucha' in Moksha, lammas in Finnish
• love is 'vechkoma' in Erzya and 'keljgäma' in Moksha, rakkaus in Finnish (but see below)
• cow is 'skal' in Erzya and 'traks' in Moksha lehmä or nauta in Finnish
• lovazha is 'bone' in Erzya and 'dead body' in Moksha, luu in Finnish but kalmo, ruumis, marras for dead body etc.

different number of cases, differencies in grammar and most of all in phonetics and pronunciation/intonation. They always speak Russian when contacting each other, very rarely speak either Moksha or Erzya and only if all speakers know this or that language. The difference is in hair colour, even faces but mostly mentality. Historically they had different allies and been at war several times in the Middle Ages. After Christinization both had became Orthodox christians but in fact continued with their old pagan rites named "koj (law, canon)". Marriage to Erzya woman was always a taboo for Moksha and vice versa. Even now Russian or Tatar spouse seems to be preferrable. When Lutheran church came to Mordovia in 1990s they had to split it into Moksha and Erzya Lutheran Churches. Erzyas are vivid and active, Mokshas are calm and stubborn. That is why we say we have nothing in common. --Khazar II (talk) 23:06, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

If regarded as shown I can also say that there are at least five main Finnish languages when talking of different dialects. The describtion of Ersas (Erza) and Moksas (Moksha) is as Karelians and Häme peoples. When (slow) Häme still thinks how to do it, the (fast) Karelian have already done it. If I want to speak the sixth "inlandish", I go to Ekenes / Tammisaari (Oak Island) 110 km out of Helsinki. There still more than 60 per cent have their mother language "the second offical" ie. Sweden, and it is quaranteed in Finland´s language law that they must have all public services with their own mother language. The same in Lappland´s four most northern boroughs with Saame (Loparskij) language. As ironic situation as I would have to change to Swedish when talking with Savo people (mixture of Häme and Karelian). Only Estonians, Latvians and Lithuanians use their own versions of Suomi (Soome, Someja, Sumeja), all others use Swedish version Finland. The Finn who cannot Swedish language and is unable to read and write it satisfacrory is not permitted to stay and live in self governing Åland / Ahvenanmaa Islands. Multiface Suomi / Finland. I have seen many times personally what it was when there were three villages in same mountain valley and three religions; Roman Catholic, Greek Orthodox and Islam. Despite being known with different names, Croats, Serbs, and Bosnjakis all spoked same serbokroatia with different dialects and never married cross the tabu border. This in Bosnia during Tito era.

Nikon is directly connected with Finland, Moksha and Russian history. I give the details of this little known story later. What about famous Terjuhans? I know at least two, possible three of them. There were also Finnish (Karelian) Greek Orthodox population in at least five villages, moved to area in 1650´s. Shoksha´s were are also mentioned being owned "souls" of Moskoviitti (Muscovite) noble families, not serfs of Russian state as the remnants of Ersas and Mokshas which were left i Mordovia after the main Mordvin exodus to the east after Stenka Razin´s revolt. Cheers.

There are two really international matters in the world, commerce and love. For love this: Lempi leimahti lieskuen lempiväisten nuorten sinisistä silmistä Lempaalan Lemmenjoen katveessa. Cannot be translated in proper English but; lempi (ljuba) is common with lighting looks from yangsters blue eyes at Lempaala (former Ingrian village in Southern (Karelian) Isthmus) Love River´s shore. For commercial: On aika maksaa turkislasku, joten maksa se lasku Bolgarin kauppiaalle. (It is time to pay the fur bill, thus pay the bill to Bolgar trader.) For religion: Pappilan apupapin papupata pankolla porisee ja paukkuu. (Rectory´s vice priest´s bean pot at stake bubbles and cracks).

Thanks for adding Moksha figures. Tavara (goods) is the same. Lasku (bill) and maksu (payment) are same also in modern Latvian language for Väinäjoki (Daugava) route. What I am trying to say, there have been common commercial language along the river trade routes, the language which all understood as early as when fur and slave trade to the southern direction become profitable. And for sure it was not ancient Russian which flourished.

Information in this article is incorrect

Erzyas do not live in the basin of the Moksha River. Separation of Erzya and Moksha is not dated 8th century, it happened much earlier. Qaratay ancestors didn't live in the territory of Tatarstan and were not assimilated by Tatars. What sources confirm this dubiuos information? --Numulunj pilgae 08:18, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

can we calm down please?

There is no reason to turn this into a wikidrama. Here are the facts:

• there are two peoples of Volga-Finns, the Moksha and the Erzya, which are discussed together as "Mordvins" in ethnological literature.
• It isn't disputed that they are actually two people, it's just that they are mostly discussed together. This article clearly states that they are separate groups, and that "Mordvins" is an exonym.
• the Moksha people and Erzya people articles were unreferenced stubs which both basically just said that each is a group of Mordvins. No information is lost by merging these stubs into this article here.

There isn't a dispute. This is simply a question of, should we keep a sub-stub at Moksha people, or should we turn it into a {{R with possibilities}} until somebody sits down and presents references dealing with the Moksha people specifically? For the record, these are the articles as I found them: [1] [2]. Not a single verifiable reference. The burden to present sources dedicated to the respective groups lies with whoever insists on establishing these as standalone articles. --dab (𒁳) 08:58, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

ok, so at least according to Latham Mordvin isn't an exonym at all, but a self-designation meaning "men". I have updated the article accordingly. --dab (𒁳) 09:25, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

I believe we all are calm like camels.

• "there are two peoples of Volga-Finns, the Moksha and the Erzya,which are discussed together as "Mordvins" in ethnological literature" Agree. But they are not groups. If Mordvins is an exonym ther is no room for two. Why not to use last period of time exonyms Moksha Mordvin and Erzya Mordvin. Exonym Mordvin for both Moksha and Erzya last time used as you noted in 19 c.
• we should keep a sub-stub of course. We could at least discuss sources on Moksha people discussion page. Please start checking those mentioned in Russian Wiki.
• Agree there were no references. Will add them. I insist on establishing these as standalone articles!
• Judith Latham? Well ok. I am Moksha beleive me Mordvin doesn't mean men in my language. It means nothing. --Numulunj pilgae 18:04, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Just a small correction to Dbachmann's comment: there are actually three peoples of Volga Finns, see Maris. Khoikhoi 23:39, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Mari people need much more larger article to be created in Wikipedia. Peharps make a link with combined historical facts with Ersas, Mokshas and Udmurts.

Yes, not turn this to eternal drama between the Finno - Ugrians

My meaning was not at all provocate anyone, just show some facts. I am keen interested to know when the separation between the Ersa and Moksha languages really happened. All available written sources before 1250 talk of Mordvas in various forms, not about Ersa and Moksha peoples. The names have always been problem for "outlandish" writers, such as Marco Polo and Plano Caprini. These are the only available western observers written sources. There are some notable describtions of the Varjags in Itil Bolgharia written by Persian and Arab travellers, but the mentions of Mordvas play a side role in their describtions. The Nestor Chronicle can be forgotten as a reliable source, because he and his fellow monks wrote down every lie which were told to them. Curiously, after this "First Kievan Chronicle" it took more than 700 hundred years before next notable Russian historian appeared in the scene. And he was Mordva as he described himself to his fellow members in St.Petersburg´s societies. And this is a written fact in history. At least I have never claimed that Ersas lived on the cource of Moksha River. The lived east of Mokshas who inhabited among others the course of Moksha from the confluence of Oka to its upper course in now a days Penza Oblast.

What I am missing in main article or sub article (just to be created) is the more detailed describtion in which were and are the Ersa and Moksha and Misär Tatar inhabited villages.

From other sources is well known that Shokshas (Russian way to write the name) were Ersas living west of Moksha River but east of Jertish River. Surrounded in north by Russian built fortificated places just like Sorminskij Majdan, Polhovskij Majdan, in west by Poljanki Majdan and in the middle of the area Sakajevskij Majdan. I can find the following villages and settlements;

• Takushevo, Vendenjapino, Nagornaja, Sadovyj, Star.Katsejevka, Beresovo, Feklusov, Nov.Katsejevka, Aleksandrovka, Telimerki, Krasn.Jar, Vjasga, Shelubej, Mokshanka, Bereznjak, Kurajevo, Narobatovo, Bajevo, Tengushevo, Bashkirtsy, Vitskidejevo, Atenino, Dudnikovo, Sakajevskij Majdan, Sakajevo, Kulikovo, Poljarnaja Zvezda, Shiromasovo, Shoksha, Mal.Shoksha, Melsetjevo, and Kolomasovo.

Which of these were Russian and Ersa villages? It is this kind of information the main article needs. Of course this is only my opinion, but in general little is known, too little, of Mordvins (which should cover all).

Then, Qaratai is newly formed Tatar language version. Older (in latin alphabets) is Karatai. At least I have never claimed that Karatais originate from Tatars. They are Tatarized (Ersa or Moksha?) Mordvins (in Finnish: Mordvalaiset are divided to Ersa and Moksa). There are wild claims presented that they originates from Hasaris and are of Moses religion in faith.

When just looked to maps I found these Karatai villages:

On the west side of Rava in Tatarstan; Zajevrazhnij-Karatai, Mordovskij-Karatai. Both population 101-500. East side of Itil; Mukshin-Karatai, and Zaj-Karatai, the former 101-500 inhabitants, the latter 1001- inhabitants. In addition there is a village Karashai-Saklovo near Tljantse-Tamak, but this might not be Karatai village.

Can we all agree that Terjuhans are of origin Mordvins (Ersa & Moksha) who speak Russian as their first language and have no knowledge of Ersa or Moksha language or just a little.

Could you just include in article a mention Saransk / Saran Osh was founded at the site of former Russian fortification Atemarsk in 1641. Town from 1651. Thank you. I will expand the article of Inäzor Purgas. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.113.117.248 (talk) 17:54, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Dear Contributor, I didn't mean you saying "This article is incorrect". I meant the article Mordvins. It is all very interesting you wrote about. Your information is very precise and seems you spent quite long time to pick up such details. Will try to check and comment on which exactly villages are Shokshan. Still thinking over all that information you provided here. Don't you have material to start article of Mokshan Prince Puresh? " Numulunj pilgae (Talk)

Some information is available of Inäzor Puresh as well, but not much. The main thing what made both Inäzors enemies was the control of the North - South trading route. Purgaz, who controlled the confluence of Rava and Oka collected taxes from traders from Bagdad Califate, Byzantium (East Roman Empire) and Persia when they passed Obran Osh. Puresh who controlled partly the Baltic - Black Sea trading route from Oka to upper Don wanted to share the whole control of the whole route not only the Baltic - Black Sea trade. But as far as it is known, both took part to prevent the Mongol army to enter to Itil Bolgharia in 1223 which they actually did in the Battle of Itil and Subutai had to retreat back to steppes. This short armistice did not last long and Puresh is said to be killed in the fierce battle of Bundaz (also known as the Battle of Ozuga) at Sura River at the site of now a days Zolotarjevka near Penza where Mongols killed all the defenders (both Mokshas and Burttas) and complete destroyed town of Ozuga. There is not mention of any kind in Russian old sources, but the Russian Princes did not participate in this battle in August 1237. Inäzor Puresh army stopped the Mongols for three whole months at Sura River. This battle is still full of unsolved mysteries. As late as in 1980´s there were found skulls with holes, armours of unidentified metal (mysterious Altai and Ural blacksmiths?), part of skeletons belonging to Mongol army having Syrian made krusifacs, spearheads, arrow heads etc. Even skeletons of war horses. Only after the battle of Bundaz the Mongols advanced to the gates of Räsan, the next town to fall. But this hard resistance offered by Puresh convinced Batu Kaani (Khan) to offer negociations with Inäzor Purgas and offer alliance to join the Mongol army what the Ersas did. I have not traced any information of Inäzor Purgaz death. Where it happened and when it happened from western sources. Plano Carpini travelled on his voyage to meet Kaanien Kaani (Khan of Khans) at Karakorum through Bundaz battlefield and he gives some information which peoples were under Mongol rule, but one have to be real expert to realise which name he gives means which people. He mentions also Sarasens which could mean the Mokshas. Magyars can easily be identified from the text. Ones before had the Mongols suffered a hard set back. The "devils from forests with magic powers" had stopped them somewhere in Siberia. Presumably the Evenki and Nenetsi (Samojed) warriors in wild forests. This defeat made Mongol War Lords to be afraid of forests. This saved most of the Finno Ugrians (and as well Novgorod) who lived in the conferious forest zone from Mongol attacks. The battle of Ozuga is detailed also on Russian web in a book by Professor Gennadij Belorybkin of Penza in 2001 and describtion should be also available Itugi.ru if it is believed to one Finnish web-side. ( I do not have Cyrillic) The battlefield is 16 hectares and was "discovered" again only in 1960´s.

Yes there are some information collected in old Finnish literature of "The Volga Finns on the Western Roads" consedering the period of Romans, Gothos, Markkomannis and Hunnis in Bohemia and Pannonia, even their battleshout in Pannonia is described from Roman sources to sound "Marha, marha". I give all details if there is any help to improve the article.

You have forgot one important and trustable source. The Estonian Tartu University Finno Ugrian Studies. They continued after the World War Two period up to 1991. Before that the Alexander University in Helsinki up to 1917, Later University of Helsinki 1920 -1944, and Debrecen University in Hungary, all three now "snakes nests" as described recently in Hanti Mansia.

Hi! You provided so much information useful for the article. Very much appreciate! As to Shoksha. They live in 15 villages/settlements in Mordovia Tengushevo (erz, Tenjgzhele) district: Baevo, Bereznyak, Vyazhga, Dudnikovo, Kolyayevo, Kurayevo, Malaya Shoksha, Melsetyevo, Mokshanka, Narovatovo, Sakaevo, Standrovo, Shelubey, Shiromasovo, Shoksha and in 5 villages Mordovia Torbeevo district: Drakino, Kazhlodka, Mayskiy, Fyodorovka, Yakstere Teshte (erz. "Red Star"). Total number 10.000. They are believed to have close relations with Muroma Finnic people in the past. They wear Mokshan clothes and call themselves Erzya. Saransk fortress is pretty far from Atemar and supposed to be founded much earlier than 1641 Numulunj pilgae (Talk)

Mordvins on Finnish compiled sources

I just checked out the list of the maps which are worth of publishing. As told earlier Eino Kuussaari has the best known collection of maps in his "Suomen Suvun Tiet". Map II shows whole are inhabited by Finno Ugrians in period to 400 BC. Map 8 shows the general outlook of different cultures in the area c. 1000 - 500 BC. Map 10 shows the expansion of Nenetsis to Siberia. Map 11 shows the situation of Finno Ugrians in Central Russia as described by Herodotos about 500 BC. Map 12 shows general outlook during the time of Scythians. Map 13 shows the the expansion of Finnish (and Volga) tribes from from Oka and Valdai to Gulf of Liivi and area south of Niemen in Poland. Map 14 shows the area of Proto Permia. Map 15 shows the movements of Hunns and its effects to the Finno Ugrian tribes. Map 16 based to map published by P.I.Jakobi (Russian Geographical Society´s Publications XXXII St.Petersburg 1907) of the limit of the area inhabited by the Finno Ugrians at Oka and Voronezh rivers. Map III shows the overall situation from 400 - 0 BC. Map 18 overall situation showing Europe by the time of Caesar Trajanus 98 - 117 AD. Map 24 shows the situation in 450 AD during the Great Peoples Wandering. Map IV shows overall situation of Finno Ugric peoples in c.400 AD. Map 27 shows the expansion of East Slavs c.400 - 900. Map 28 shows Livonia and Curonia with Finnish origin place names. Map 29 shows most important river trading routes in Russia. Map 30 shows how Volga Finns are becoming more and more isolated from Baltic Finns. Map V shows development up to year 600. Map VI Bolgars and Slavs are closing the Finno Ugrian settled lands. Map 36 Finnish related peoples trading areas and the effect with fur trade. Map 37 The wandering of Hungarians from Ural to Pannonia. Map VII The Finno Ugrians in 800 - 900. Etc up to map 65 Mordva Autonomous Republic 1934. Shows also areas inhabited by the Mordvins outside their admistrational area in nearby areas.

The wandering to west is loaned from Strabo, Tacitus, Polish historian J.Rozwadowski, Ptolemaios, Jordanes, Jacobi. The particiation to the Attila´s battle at Charlemange in 451 is described in at least 15 studies. Bohemia, Pannonia episode to the Roman historians collected by Yrjö-Koskinen. The question is of Limigantes as the Romans called them, which were Volga Finns. Episode of Herulis which wandered along Ostrogoths and returned back to Volga area in 512 is by Jordanes and Byzantium written sources.

Also intersting is an article in Carelia Magazine, Petroskoi Nr 4/2002 by Vladimir Afanasjev "Venäläiset ja suomensukuiset: saman kehdon lapsia" (Russians and Finnish kin: Children of same cradle.) For newer history Carelia Nr. 6/2000 Sergei Verigin: Karjalais-Suomalaisen liittotasavallan perustaminen ja "uusien alueiden" hyväksikäyttö. (The foundation of Karelian-Finnish Federal Soviet Republic and its economical use 1940-1941). There is published the Decision dated 28.05.1940 by Communist Party Central Committee to transfer 20.000 and in 1941 also 20.000 Mordvins, Chuvasis, Tataria to newly gained areas (from Finland) to Karelian Isthmus and Ladoga Karelia. I suppose nothing of this plan has been published in Saransk.

Maybe the Black Death 1347 - 1350 is worth of mentioning because it killed half of all population in Volga area. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.113.117.248 (talk) 21:01, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, are there sources proving POV Limigantes were Volga Finns? Aren't they believed to be Vandals or other German race people? Numulunj pilgae (Talk) —Preceding comment was added at 13:49, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Limigantes

Despite some Germans linking Limigantes and Vandals together, there is not reliable proof that they were same people. The Vandals upper class Germanized while stayed east of Elbe and started to use Deutsch, but main body of the people did not. They have interesting history, real victims of the Great Peoples Wandering, wandering through Western Europe, Iberian peninsula, Northern Africa, destroying as side show Roma and ending their days as slaves in Bosantti / Bysantti / Byzantium at Anatolian hills. Part of the most stubborn population took all their property to the backs of camels and horses and crossed Sahara ending to River Niger bend dissapearing from history. I can give a list of the place names there dating from 1912 which looks quite a lot of Finno Ugrian language. The habits looks quite common for us I think.

Inäzors Obram and Tyshtan

More unformation needed. Obram (also called Abram) seems to have been father of Purgaz who lost the battle against three Vladimir vojevods at Skirmish river just north of Obran Osh in 1220.

In some (Jewish) sources Obram is named Inäzor Abraham. The old Ersa story, transferred from generation to next generation, says that when the battle of Skirmish (name still uncertain) near Obran Osh happened in 1220, the women of (after Obran´s death?) Obran Osh decided to do mass suicide with treir children by drowing themselves to Rav. Purgaz decided to chance his capital to Arzamas. According to Russian sources he tried to capture back the newly named Nizhnij Novgorod in 1228. This period is unclear. When allied with Batu Kaani in 1237 one would think that Obran Osh was returned to Inäzor Purgaz family with Mongol assistance. This part of history is black in Russian history of Nizhnij Novgorod. Only what is mentioned is the yoke of Mongol - Tatars in 1238. Then suddenly Nizhnij Novgorod is from 1264 to 1350 part of Vladimir Suzdal vojevodi. Strange, if all the Russian Principalities except of Novgorod and Pskov were under Mongol Yoke. Or shall we understand that the Tatars were actually Ersas who recaptured Obran Osh in 1238 from Vladimir Suzdal vojevod who was killed in the Battle of Sit River on March 9, 1238.

Inäzor Tyshtan is either the son of Inäzor Puresh (who in Russian later added chapter of Bygone Stories of Past is nicely placed to kill unpleasent competiter Inäzor Purgaz) or another Moksha Inäzor who allied with half Tatar Muscovite vojevodi Dmitri of Don River. (Dimitri Donjokelainen). Which fact is true?

Some fresh new thinking may found from http://www.paabo.ca/uirala/uini-name.html published by Anders Pääbo, an Canadian with Estonian roots regading the old Finno Ugrian history from Uirala (Uirali) to Ueneti (Wenedi), Uitula and Uitruski (Etruski).

According to emiritus Professor Kalevi Wiik; Mordvins: The base culture was Gorodets culture, which in turn was borned from textile ceramic culture influence. This in turn was based to pit culture and line Volosovo - Pozdnjakovo. In Volosovo culture included Belanovo and Fatjanovo cultures in addition to element of Upper Volga culture (5000 - 3000 BC), thus the Mordvin includes also Baltic element. From 700 AD the Mordvins were partly influenced by Volga Bolgares. Dividing for two continued in 1200´s. At last in 1552 the both Mokshas and Ersas were under common (Muscovite) adminstration when the Muscovites conquered the whole area. In 1550 - 1795 and 1804 - 1810 occured the massive movement to the east. In 1600´s Mordvins had become a minority in their own lands. Moksha language has more Turkic influence from ancient Bolgarian language than Ersa (Erza) language. Agreed or not?

I suppose all know the Goroditse Culture with ancient Hillforts located to important confluences of rivers. These people were moving, according to Dr. James S. Gregory, toward west to Vistula Basin and Pannonia. In addition to Goroditsi, two other Finno Ugrian tribes are also mentioned, Anematski and Ojakovi on their western course.

• There is a POV there were no Mongols in Golden Horde, only another Russian empire heir to the throne of turkic origin. No chance Erzyas recaptured Obran one more time. But all seems dubious. There is no mentioning of Puresh son's name and it is not quite clear it was him or his son destroying Purgaz principality in 1229 and who of them swore allegiance to Jengiz and later been slain in battle in Germany. As to 700AD first it was Khazars and Alans who influenced Moksha (Burtas alliance) and it was Erzya who came under Bolgarian influence (both Khazars and Bolgars were turkic so it is not easy to separate even loanwords though the influence was not the same). Moksha and Erzya were different peoples in 1200AD. Probably never been an ethnic unity. I mean Turkic peoples for example speaking very close languages but no one is trying to find the date when Chuvashes separated from Tatars or vice versa. There is POV Moksha were closer to Muroma and Meshchera than to Erzya. There is even a POV Mokshas shifted to Finno-Ugric language (Muromian or Meshcheran) but they were not ethnic Finnic (of course it is not true). Even archeological data proves they had different traditions. May be they were in alliance long ago. 1552 is the year they both swore oath to Muscovites but still remains Kasimov khanate (till 1681). What is the work of James S. Gregory reg Gorodets culture moving? --Khazar II (talk) 06:02, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

According to James S. Gregory´s work (map in page 101) the more western hillfort area was mainly in old vähävenäläinen Malorossia (Ukraina) so called Romny Culture area, but a different type of hillforts were east of Oka as far east to Voronezh River and beyond, which was known to be inhabited by Finno Ugrians (see map published by Jakobi and its Finnish version published by Eero Kuussaari) connecting the hillforts direct to Finno Ugrian Metserä (Metserän mäkilinna) at the place of later Kasimov in Kasimovin Kaanikunta, and Muromis. These were linked with Meri (Russian Merja) people living north of them which were in turn linked with Vepsä (Russians used to call them Ves) people. The Kyrillic Vsevolod name drops out the original Vesevolod form. The hillforts appear even in Estonia and Finland on the same bases and built for the same purpose than Oka and Valgia (White) River hillforts. Because of the warning fires system the Scandinavian Vikings made only few robbing treks to Finland. The Finno Ugrians made so hard recistance than only one of such journeys have been recorded in Viking era sagas.

Some Finnish historians who had and have visited in Hakassia say they are Hukassis which in turn can be derived with hukka ie. susi (wolf).

The burial traditions

The kalma way of burial. The corps were placed onto platforms at sacred croves (kalmisto). The birds and other animals done the job to finish the corps, which in this way become part of the nature again. Compare to the Tibetan sky burial. The burning burials where the corp is buried and ash distributed to the nature. Both are old Finno Ugrian burial methods. Land burials become later with Christianity.

• All correct. That is why the early period lacks archeological data. Sacred grove in Moksha called 'repeshtä'. In old times they used bark/bast coffins for it hanging them on trees (sleeping beauty founded in crystal coffin hanging on a tree came to fairy-tales from Finnic burial tradition). Later Mokshas started using for dead bodies small wooden tombs made of four trees growing close. They cut them and made small blockhouse placed on four legs. --Khazar II (talk) 07:16, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Erzya and Moksha identity

Regarding the various discussions of Erzya and Moksha identity above, people working on this article may be interested in citing the essay "Erza We Are!" by the Erzya (Erza) poet Mariz Kemal posted on the SURI website (Soome-Ugri Rahvaste Infokeskus / Information Center of Finno-Ugric Peoples). [3] Peer Gynt (talk) 23:07, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Destroying the Barchin and Orna by Mongols in 1237

I found this describtion from Finnish transliteration of Plano Carpini´s classic work transliterated from old English. This suits well with the known facts including Moksha´s described as Saracens in 1245.

Barchin and Orna

Plano Carpini describing the advance of Batu Kaani´s Army as told by the Mongols themselves who participated Batu´s attack. "But a certain citie called Barchin resisted them for a long time. For the citizens had cast vp many ditches and trenches about their citie, in regard whereof the Tartars (Mongols) cuold not take it till they had filled the said trenches (sudenkuopat in Finnish, wolf´s pits in English transliteration). But the citizens of Sarguit hearing this, came foorth to meete them (Mongols), yelding themselves vnto them of their owne accord. Whereupon their citie was not destroyed, but they slue manie of them and others they carried awaye captiue, and taking spoyles they filled the citie with other inhabitants, and so marched (rided) foorth against the citie of Orna. This towne was uery popolous and exceeding rich. For they were manue Christians, Russians (should be multi ethnic Orosh), and Alanians (Hungarians?), with outhers, and Saracens (Mokshas) too. The gouernement of this citie was in the Saracens (Moksha´s) hande. It standeth vpon a mighty river (Sura), and is a kinde of porte towne, hauing a great marte exrcised therein. And when the Tartars (Burjat Mongols) could not otherwise ouercome it, they turned the said riuer (Sura) running through the said citie, out of the channell and so drowned the citie with the inhabitants and their goods. Which beeing done they (Mongols) set forward against Oruss (Russia ie. Slavic principalities), and made foule hauocke there, destroying cities and castles and murthering the people. They (Mongols) laid siege a long while vnto Kiow the chiefe citie of Oruss (Russia), and at lenght took it (Deciember in Lord´s year 1240) and slue the citizens. Whereupon, trauelling (Plano Carpini himself in 1245) through that countrey, wee found an innumerable multitude of death mens skules and bones lying vpon the earth. For Kiow was verie large and a populous citie, but it is nowe (1245) in a maner brought to nothing for there doe scarce remaine 200 housies, the inhabitants whereof are kept in exreme bondage. Moreouer, oute of Oruss (Russia) and Comania (Kumania), they (Mongols) proceeded forward against the Polonians and Hungarians and there manie of them (Mongolians) were slaine (in the Battles of Leginca and Mohi AD 1241) as is foresaid and had the Hungarians (Battle of Mohi 1241) manfully withstood them, the Tartars (Mongolians) had beene confounded and druiven back. Returning from thence, they (Mongolians) inuaded the countrey of Morduans (Ersas) being pagans, and conquerred them in a battle (Ersa uprising in 1242 or Ersa tribes in Pannonia). Then they marched against the people called Byleri (Bolghars), or Bulgaria magna, and vtterly wasted the countrey (1242). from hence they (Mongols) proceeded against the people called Bastarci or Hungarian magna, and conquered them also. And so going further North, they come vnto the Parasitae (Mari) who hauing little stomacks and small mouthes, ate not anie thing at all, but seething fless they stand or sitte ouer the potte, and receiuing the steame or smoke (traditional Finno Ugrian sauna) thereof, are therewith onely nourished, and if they eate anie thing it is verie little. (No mention of any Mongol victory over Parasitae). From hence they (Mongols) came to Samogitae, who liue onely vpon hunting, and vse to dwell in tabernacles onely, and weare garmets made of beasted skines. (sotisopa). (Again, no mention of any Mongol voctory over Samogitae.) From thence they (Mongols) proceeded vnto a countrey lying vpon the Ocean sea (Baltic Sea or White Sea during winter covered with ice), where they found certaine monsters, who in all things iesembled a shape of man, sauing that their feete were like the feete (short skies) of an oxe, and they had deede mens heads but dogges faces. (traditional Finno Ugrian head cover made of wolf of fox head skins). They spake,as it were, two words like man, but the third they barged like dogges. From hence they (Mongols) retired into Cumania, and there some of them remaine vnto this day (1245 - 1246).

I think there is nothing to comment over this describtion written by a neutral visitor of Pope´s delegation toward the Karakorum too meet the Kaanien Kaani (Khan of Khans). For the "offical" Russian history writing this story had remained totally unknown.

• Yes! Agree. I have read it. Moreover we may find it in ANNALES MONASTERII DE WAVERLEIA. Roger Bacon and Matthew of Paris mentioned "mordans" being Mongol army avant-gard. Kiitos! --Khazar II (talk) 22:44, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

• Now when you mentioned the Mordvin scouts in Poland it came to my memory to have read of them in one book (I cannot remember the name) written by one American of Polish roots decribing his home village in Zakopane area where the legend of these Mordvins still lives strongly, described to be the first members of Mongol army which were seen. They gave warning of the nearing Mongol main force to the villagers who had time to escape to the forests and avoid the passing Mongol army which did not enter into forests. This saved the villagers.

Pleasure to be of help. I read again the whole book. Some more interesting details were found. I add them in above text when have time. Some general thoughts came to my head. What was the importance of execution of the best 25.000 Mordvin warriors after the conquering of Kiow? Could it have been a most important thing to have 25.000 very hard soldiers more in the conquering Mongol army in the battles in Poland and Hungary. Is it so that these missing 25.000 saved the rest of the Western Europe. It is after all ten per cent of the total Mongol manpower.

Some warriors seems to have managed to save their heads and escaped back to Mordvaland. They told the fate of the others and this rised the general hate so much that the result was open revolt against the Mongols. Why the Mongols had to sent 40.000 soldiers and Subutai himself to smash the revolt and pacify the Mordvins?

Secondly, does someone a slightest idea why the Mongol army did not invade against the Lithuaninas and why they left Belarussian towns untouched. Was there a skirmish between advancing Mongols and Lithuanians which is not mentioned in history, where the Lithuanians offered such a resintance that it remained Subutai and others of the hard battle in Sura River.

Bear in Mordvin Mythologia

What importance the bear has in old Mordvin mythologia? If the answer is yes, please do describe in what meaning. It depends of this if I can open the locked door to Mordvin tribes in Phennonia (Pannonia). I cannot think bear in steppe zone to be generally celebrated. They do not like to be in open nature, the cover of forest must always to be near to avoid the people.

• Bear (moksha: ofta) is very important in most old layers of mythology and Moksha pagan tradition. It was believed you may not pronounce bear's name aloud. During wedding ceremony there is always an old woman in bear's skin (or at least in hairy fur coat) who gives special blessing to the married couple. In old Mokshan fairy-tales bears are always kind and wise. I don't know for sure if traditional Mokshan dish 'oftunj madä' (bear's paw) ever been made of real bear but now it is made of different kinds of meat (lamb, beef, pork, etc) and dried crusts used for claws. --Khazar II (talk) 07:38, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Thank you Khazar II. Now I can link with bear the ancient tribes in Phennonia (Pannonia) direct to Mordvin tribes, becuse I suppose the Wesstern Slavs did not respect bear such a way what all Finno Ugrian peoples did. Compare with the old Russian legends of sacred bears of Meri and Vepsä peoples connected with their pre Christian religions). Here is another prove, as you said, not to mention bear directly, but with other names which mean the bear. Otso (ofta), mesikämmen (honeypalm), metsän kuningas (king of the forest) and other. In Estonia even the main settlement of Ugandi was named (name in German) Oedenpah ie. Otsonpää (Head of the Bear or in form Bearhead). In modern Estonian language Otepää becouse of its shape like a bear in nature. There was an ancient hillfort there until 1200´s. There are many places named after the bear in Finland and Karelia, and when you look Russian detailed maps, you found a curiosity, they all are mainly inside the area of so called Finno Ugrian Russia. Also bear (karhu / otso / kontio) is common in Finnish and Karelian origin surenames. Also in those Karelian origin names which were, when the owner of the name was baptized, Russificated to Russian Medvjed.... Those Tihveri (Tver) Karelians (quarter of million) are described as Karhujoen kansa (People of Bear River). They have even today (2008) their own name I have heard of this old habit with the Maatar (Maaemo) plessing to the young couple when they started their common path, included also in Mishär Tatar´s wedding ceremony.

Then, born the Earth from the egg of Narsku (Sotka) in Latin Aythia, (Mordvins have eagle or some other mythologial bird?). The upper (sharper) part of the egg presents the Upper World (world of life) and the lower (lower) part of the egg presents the Under World )world of the death) which is invisble, but among the ihminen (living human) and nature with its maahinen population with fairies, demons, etc. The Upper World is the World of the Lightness, the Under World is the World of Darkness. Nearly every night the Upper World and Lower World spirits ie. good and bad are fighting in the northern sky so strongly that their clashes are shown in Revontulet (Fires of Revo / Rouan), in Latinized form Aurora Borealis.

Common sayings

Does the Ersa yakstere kel and Moksha yakster kiäl mean in deepist meaning same than Finnish ruskeakielinen and Karelian rusgie kielne. Color is different but the meaning seems to be the same. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.112.168.67 (talk) 20:59, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

jaksterä or jaksterj (I use Finnish spelling) in Moksha is 'red'. Jaksterj kälj is 'red tongue/language' You can say tobda/shobda jaksterj - 'brown (literally dark red)' --Khazar II (talk) 07:26, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. This explanes all. The most unfortunate, as said by all Hungarians, Estonian, and Finnish linguistic scholars, to write the Ersa and Moksha languages, is the adoption of Kyrillic alphabets insted of Latin alphabets in both languages because you cannot simply write the language as it is pronounced.

Common own name for all Mordvins

I am pretty sure it is still known, if not in Mordvin collectional memory, then it must live in either Tatar or Türkish languages or mentioned in Byzantium old written sources. If there were Ut-murt, Komi-murt, Mari-murt, Meri-murt, Maa-murt and Su-murt there must be a common word as Finnish ihminen for living human be. I have traced one name Murdasa (Murt-as) of Bulgal origin which might be originally As-murt or Mas-murt and turned to Jassi people in later days. But if the Mastor a common in both dialects for Earth then Mastor-murt (Land Living Human Be), or people connected to Earth. In later separated Baltic Finn languages you can see a mythologian Maa-emä (Estonian) and Maa-emo (Finnish) or if given direct feminine name then Maatar for feminine Earth. Emo / Emä is mother. Thus Mother of Earth. Usually hän is neutral he / she but when used to form separate the female version of adoult women from men then they become -tar / -tär in the end of the verb. Thus:

• rakastaja / rakastajatar (lover / mistress)
• omistaja / omistajatar (owner)
• metsästäjä /metsästäjätär (hunter)
• perijä / perijätär (heritager)
• kaupunkilainen / kaupungitar (inhabitant living in town)
• haltija / haltiatar (gnome / fairy)
• herttua / herttuatar (western duke / duchess)
• ruhtinas / ruhtinatar (eastern duke / duchess)

Basicly quite simple language developed from stone age language to now one of the richest language groups having equal number of words with Greek language, ie more than 10.000 in use. Usually all indo-european languages have much less words. (About 60 - 70 per cent of the Finno Ugrian languages). Many words cannot be transliterated directly in one word to indo-european languages. Or what of dialectic "mukkelismakkelis" = fell upside down in rolling position. When one add all the different dialects and synonyme loan words from other languages....impossible to understand for outsiders. Thus named dog language when spoken in quick tempo. I think Basque language is similar. Ones claimed to be nearly same than one minority language used in Caucasus. At least this Caucasian knjäz understod all when visited in Baskimaa and was able to communicete with local inhabitants using his own language during the time of Imperial Russia. Not much know fact.

Child has tongue in his / her mouth. He / she learns to speak his / her mother´s language in his father´s land which is his / her Fatherland. = Lapsella on kieli suussa. Hän oppii puhumaan äidinkieltä isänsä maassa joka on hänen isänmaansa. Simple or what?

Mordvin War Dress

There are several describtions showing the ancient Mordvins having, when going to their war paths, being dressed to black clothes and later to black painted armour separating them clearly from Mongols. They used night as a cover and were invisible for their enemies. Surely not at all the Mongol habit to conduct the battles. These black warriors being the most feared by the enemies in the Mongol army. Is it possible that the Ersas refused to continue after the Kiow, with the described result, but the Mokshas continued westward with the Mongol army. If this was the case the Russian version of the conquering the Mordovia by Mongols in 1238 - 1239 must be only the part which was inhabited by Mokshas, and Burttas, ie. western part of so called Great Mordvania which existed in c.600 - 1227. With this backround the theory to link Mokshas (dark heared) with Muromis and Metseräs sound logical and Ersas (blond and red heared) more to Udmurts and Komi Permjakkis.Please remember the Tula Finns are even mentioned by Lev Tolstoi living as his neighbours in Krasnaja Poljana located in the forest zone south of Tula. Also the Orjel (Russian version) could have had Finno Ugrian roots to Finnish Kotka (Eagle). Tshuvassi language has a direct transliteration of non Russian Tula being as "located far away" which could have been a tshuvassi version of Finnish Kaukola ie place located far away looking both from the north and east with Finno Ugrian population before the Russians wandered from south western direction in the area.