Talk:Yggdrasil

Dramatic scenario

"The excellent level of preservation made it possible to deduce that he had been a prisoner of war sacrificed as a thank-offering after a victory. " No, this dramatic scenario is not warranted. I have substituted "The excellent level of preservation made it possible to deduce that he had been ritually hanged and respectfully consigned to the bog, not more than a hundred yards from where a ritually hanged woman had been found some decades previously." . --Wetman 20:32, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Irminsul

"It appears, then, that Irminsul may have been a material anchor for Yggdrasil" — is it just me, or does this make no sense? ('material anchor'??) dab (ᛏ) 07:59, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

A semantic term from cognitive linguistics. When you look at Christ on the crucifix, he is a material anchor for your concept of Christ. Churches and temples are full of such material anchors.--Wiglaf 14:26, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

You mean, Irminsul was an actual, natural oak? That was a `material anchor' for a `World Oak'? Would not that World Oak have been called Irminsul as well, rather than Yggdrasil, i.e. Irminsul is just the Saxon name for Norse Yggdrasil? (Apart from that, 'material anchor' sounds like a dreadfully postmodern way of saying symbol to me, but I won't dwell on that). dab (ᛏ) 14:43, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Well, yes AFAIK Irminsul was an actual oak that existed in real life, and which was destroyed by Charlemagne when he converted the Saxons. Go ahead and remove it if you don't like it.--Wiglaf 14:58, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

PS, symbol is a dreadfully polysemous word in semantics, but yes, it could be replaced by symbol and probably should.--Wiglaf 14:59, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Sorry, I don't mean to nitpick. I think I'll just slightly rephrase it. 'symbol' may be polysemous, but I think it would be correct to say that a crucifix symbolizes Christ. Christians will get angry if you desecrate it, but they will not think that you have damaged Christ. Idols are different: They are thought to actually contain a part of the deity's essence. These figures had to be 'recharged' in the main temple in the Ancient Near East. Probably nearer to a eucharist wafer: would you say that such a wafer, in the mind of a Catholic, is a material anchor, a symbol, or an idol? Difficult call. Much more in the case of the Saxons, because we don't know what they actually believed. Maybe we should just say 'represent' here. dab (ᛏ) 15:19, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Represent sounds perfect!--Wiglaf 15:20, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I've read (maybe in Jung or Campbell) that Yggdrasil may also be a representation of the mind, with the trunk, boughs, etc. representing consciousness, and the roots the subconscious part of the mind.Zarathustra2101 06:27, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

It's possible, but I doubt the Norse knew much about the subconscious, let alone model part of their religion after such a vague and somewhat modern concept as consciousness.

Hel?

I'm just trying to dab Hel, but where it says Hel in this article, it is refering to a place and not a goddess. Hel is the goddess of the underworlds, Helheim and Niflheim, in Norse mythology, so could the person who wrote the intro be refering to the underworlds ruled by Hel? BlankVerse 15:17, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)

In other words a "deamon"? Resembles the Hild character I know from the anime does rule "hell" or "underworld" and the serries are going parallel to the norse mythology I think. -- Cat ^chi? 09:16, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

Ok I am not going to hide, I am completely lost, there is a dual referance and I am confused. -- Cat ^chi? 09:20, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

Hel (goddess): In Norse mythology, Hel is the queen of Helheim, the Norse underworld.

Helgardh, also known as Hel ("house of mists"), shares a name with the goddess who rules it. In Norse mythology, Hel is one of the nine worlds, the abode of the dead, ruled over by Hel.

We are in disambiguation hell here. -- Cat ^chi? 09:20, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

I am not an expert but I am a fan of Norse Mythology. I have always been taught that HEL (Loki's daughter) rules HEL, also called HELHEIM. One point that the first paragraph in the article states is that Asgaard is the top and Niflheim is the bottom of the tree. This is, in my understanding, incorrect. Asgaard (home of the Aesir) is the top but Hel is the bottom. Midgaard (loosely Earth) is in the centre of the tree with Muspell and Niflheim at the same level. Muspell and Niflheim (fire and ice, respectively) joined/collided/came together and Ymir the frost giant was revealed. Odin and his brothers (Villi and Ve)kill Ymir (their father) to create Midgaard. The two worlds of the fire and frost giants still remain on the same plane (for lack of a better term) with Midgaard. Loki (a half or full giant depending on what you read) has several children one of which is Hel. Because of Loki's deceit, Hel and her brethren are banished from Asgaard. Hel is sent to the land of shadows (HEL), also translated as land of mists, etc... - Jan 07,2007 --Cjlaundrup (talk) 19:07, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Popular culture section

Yes, any number of things in any number of computer games and fantasy stories have been called Yggdrasil. I don't feel confident in judging which mentions are notable enough to keep but this is cluttering the article a bit, as often happens with mythology articles. Maybe we should break off the popular culture section into a separate article? - Haukurth 21:09, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

the "popular culture" section is getting out of hand. It is warranted to export them. We had to take a similar path with References to Odin in popular culture. Nobody is "disrupting" or "deleting" anything. dab (ᛏ) 07:51, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

Okay. I see that he has now moved the content to the disambiguation page, and that does indeed make some sense. The first time I looked at it, the content had just been deleted, and not moved anywhere else. That's why I reverted the change. -- Karl Meier 07:57, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

I realise anime/manga/comic/rpg/whatever freeks did not randomly pick the letters making up "Yggdrasil", I do feel Norse Mytholgy entries are fused with stuff that aren't related to the mythology aspect. The fact that lots of RPGs, and animes (most notably Oh My Goddess!) following the serries side by side makes disambigs difficult. I organised the disambig page to the best of my abilities visiting every individual page and etc. -- Cat ^chi? 09:14, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

I'll be working on more "defusing". I noticed the level of fusing while editing Skuld. -- Cat ^chi? 09:14, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

I also think Wagner is not Norse Mythology. I am not an expert but he came after the original stories and have had modified them somewhat making himself uneque (or else we wouldnt know about him). -- Cat ^chi? 09:14, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

The extra stuff in this section has to go. Elsewhere. I would have deleted it but it actually appears to make some sense so just deleting it didn't seem like the right thing to do.

Fakta

kan eg få fakta?

Sure. Which facts do you want? - Haukur Þorgeirsson 14:36, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Bellowing fire?

The bellowing fire will not scorch them…

Is this quotation correct, or should it be billowing fire? I don't know that it's wrong, just that it sounds suspiciously like a misquote. I haven't been able to find a reliable confirming source that isn't itself based on this Wikipedia entry. User:dodiad 21:40, 20 Aug 2006 (UTC)

I have no idea where that quotation is supposed to come from. The most important primary source is Gylfaginning, you can read a translation here: [1] It says:

"In the place called Hoddmímir's Holt there shall lie hidden during the Fire of Surtr two of mankind, who are called thus: Líf and Lífthrasir, and for food they shall have the morning-dews. From these folk shall come so numerous an offspring that all the world shall be peopled" Haukur 22:23, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Pronounciation

Could someone please make the pronounciation easier to understand? I don't know how to interpret dictionary-style pronounciation keys. Something spelled out, such as

Guten Tag = GOOT-en Tahk — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.7.243.100 (talk • contribs)

Yeah, could someone use English dictionary pronunciation? It doesn't do me any good to know how the Norwegians prounounce it.

ihg-dräh-sëll?

I could read that. I mean, for reals, ya'll, that's a weird looking word. TotalTommyTerror 15:53, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

It lists an IPA pronounciation, buts its wrong. it has a "y" but there is no "y" character in IPA (or at least there isnt on the chart on wikipedia). can someone provide a correct IPA pronounciation? Mloren 13:44, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

IPA [y] is a close front rounded vowel. Rhyolite (talk) 21:21, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

English

Ygg is one of Odins names; "drasil" or drasill could mean, "dragging towards ill" -- the place Odin did some bade things. It should (also) be read as a geographical description. The name is mention in Voluspá and Grimnismál:

[Vol: 18] Ash I know standing named (Ydddrasil) Oathill a lofty tree, laved with limpid water: Thence come the dews into the dales that fall. Stands always he green above Urd’s well.

[28] Alone she sat without when (Ygg) Oath there came, that esir-fellow, and in her eye he gazed: ...

[47] Trembles Oathill's ash yet standing, that aged tree, and jotuns leave.

[Grim: 29] Turtle and Wormt and Pottery's two these he wades Thor each day, when he to council goes at Oathill's ash; for the Asbridge is all on fire, the holy waters boil. Glad and Gild, Joybringer and Seahorse, Silverintop and Sinew, Hostage and Nitemple, Goldtop and Easyfat; on these steeds the esir each day ride, when they to council go, at Oathill's ash. Three roots stand on three ways under Oathill's ash; Hel lives under one, the second frostkin, under the third mankind. Rattray is the squirrel named, run on Oathill's ash; words from above from eagle carry, and beneath to Nidblow bring. Harts four, bite of green twigs, arch-necked, gnaw. Comatose and Dozein, Downbank and Dronebliss. More serpents lie under Oathill's ash, than ignorant ape know; Goodin and Moan, they are Gravewitness sons, Grayback and Digcanalout, Oven and Sofny always i think the branches ever lacerate. Oathill's ash hardship suffers greater than men know; a hart bites it above, and in its side it rots, Nidblow beneath tears it.

Ninum 11:01, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

What is the name of the Eagle at the top of the tree?

I would like to know. Presumably they had a name for him (or her). --128.135.24.230 00:29, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

The eagle is seen as a group of people or a clan living in the tree -- the eagle clan; they speak bird language.

[Hundingsbana II: 8]

It was the wolfkins' son's [the wolf-clan]

last achievement,

- if thou desirest to know -

west of the ocean,

that I took bears [the bear-clan]

in Brightgrove,

and the eagles' kin [the eagle-clan]

with our weapons sated.

See also [Hundingsbana I: 35, 45]

In the lay [Helgakviða Hjörvarðssonar] there was an earl named Frånmar. Frånmar had taken the form of an eagle, and protected them from a hostile army. In [Reginsmál: 26] Sigurd uses the seal of the eagle. In the lay [Fafnismál] Sigurd learn to speak the bird language. So, it's difficult to pin the eagle to a single name. Ninum 21:53, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Lingual error

Yggdrasil spelt as Yggdrasill as 'Old Norse' is wrong. The -ll is a newer form, currently used in modern Icelandic, of the older -lur masculine ending. Yggdrasill is correct spelling as of current Icelandic, but not in old Norse. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.149.24.225 (talk) 19:02, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

You have been misinformed. The -ll form is indeed correct Old Norse (and, incidentally, correct Modern Icelandic as well). It developed out of an older (unattested) -lr form. Haukur (talk) 20:26, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Runestone image

The Runestone image shown on this page displaying "Yggdrasil" is errnoneous; the Ockelbo Runestone is one of the Sigurd Runestones. It displays the tree into which the sword Gram was thrust by Odin at the beginning of the Sigurd story described in the Elder Edda and Volsungasaga. This image is misleading and should be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 136.242.118.130 (talk) 05:52, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

First sentence

In the first sentence, it is stated that "the extra -/ is a nominative case marker." That's great, but what extra -/ ? Eleven even (talk) 10:32, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

The nominative of the word is Yggdrasill, the accusative is Yggdrasil; hence the "extra l" can be viewed as a nominative case marker. Haukur (talk) 11:20, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Ash or taxus

The Dutch Wikipedia entry for this page has a section, unfortunately not listing any references, that claims that the tree wasn't an ash but a taxus. Anyone familiar with these views? Although as said not giving any references, it explains this claim in detail, with what looks at a first glance convincing evidence. Jalwikip (talk) 12:11, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Odins Crucifixion

Haelsa Bloodfox,

I am freyr-Ottar, you edited my comments on the basis that you assert Odin was hung - he wasnt.

Not one text anywhere says he was 'hung' eg with a rope - all the texts in fact relate to him being hung from Yggdrasil eg impaled with Gungnir.

This is why it says he was wounded to himself with the spear - the spear impaled him.

Odin was impaled on the tree as per so many northen gods eg Esus. The rope hanging story is a misinterpretation of the texts and symbolism by literalists not symbolists.

The word 'hung' relates to the fact that when viewed from Earth Cygnus/Odin on the summer solstice Odin appears upside down eg as the joker depicted on the tarot card.

This is what it says on the odin page of wikkipedia ;

Hávamál

In Rúnatal, a section of the Hávamál, Odin is attributed with discovering the runes. He was hung from the world tree, Yggdrasil, while pierced by his own spear for nine days and nights, in order to learn the wisdom that would give him power in the nine worlds. Nine is a significant number in Norse magical practice (there were, for example, nine realms of existence), thereby learning nine (later eighteen) magical songs and eighteen magical runes.

One of Odin's names is Ygg, and the Norse name for the World Ash —Yggdrasil—therefore could mean "Ygg's (Odin's) horse". Another of Odin's names is Hangatýr, the god of the hanged. Sacrifices, human or otherwise, in prehistoric times were commonly hung in or from trees, often transfixed by spears. (See also: Peijainen)

The fact he is called god of the hanged does not mean he was hung with a rope like mere mortals - he underwent a spiritual experience as a god through an impaling with his divine weapon ;

Rúnatal Rúnatal or Óðins Rune Song (Rúnatáls-tháttr-Óðins) is a section of the Hávamál where Odin reveals the origins of the runes, or of secret knowledge. It runs from Stanzas' 138 through to 165. In section 138, Odin describes his self-sacrifice (to himself):

Veit ec at ec hecc vindga meiði a netr allar nío, geiri vndaþr oc gefinn Oðni, sialfr sialfom mer, a þeim meiþi, er mangi veit, hvers hann af rótom renn.

I know that I hung on a windy tree nine long nights, wounded with a spear, dedicated to Odin, myself to myself, on that tree of which no man knows from where its roots run.[3]

Note ;

no reference to rope - but a direct reference to his spear wounding him - eg IMPALING him to the tree so he could absorb its essence by becoming part of the tree.

The wounding is an impaling.

Mortals and followers of Odin are hung with ropes - gods are impaled with a divine weapon upon a divine tree.

Odin was not hung with a rope - that is a misintepretaton.

Even if you insist he was hung with a rope that still means the star facts I have discovered are still correct as the symbolism relates directly to the astronomy.

Freyr-Ottar —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.205.228.234 (talk) 10:48, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Hello Freyr-Ottar, here is stanza 138 of the Poetic Edda poem Hávamál:

I know that I hung on a windy tree

nine long nights,

wounded with a spear, dedicated to Odin,

myself to myself,

on that tree of which no man knows

from where its roots run. (Larrington)

Odin quite clearly states that he hung himself. View this as you like, but we have a policy against inserting personal interpretations into articles: Wikipedia:No original research. :bloodofox: (talk) 11:16, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Haelsa,

It quite clearly states the opposite.

It says ' I hung' - which is no evidence at all of 'hanging' eg with a rope.

It means he hung eg was impaled and hung from the tree he was impaled upon.

Read this ;

http://www.englishrules.com/writing/2005/hanged-or-hung.php

Pictures can be hung, but people are always hanged.

It's an odd quirk of the English language. Here is a usage note on the word "hang" from the American Heritage Dictionary:

Hanged, as a past tense and a past participle of hang, is used in the sense of "to put to death by hanging," as in Frontier courts hanged many a prisoner after a summary trial. A majority of the Usage Panel objects to hung used in this sense. In all other senses of the word, hung is the preferred form as past tense and past participle, as in I hung my child's picture above my desk

In other words people are hanged with a rope and people are hung when a rope is not used.

'To be hanged' is a person suspended with rope and the wording would have to be ' I hanged for nine nights' if he had been suspended with a rope.

To be impaled is to be hung eg suspended from the spear. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.205.218.250 (talk) 13:46, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

If you have some issues with the translator's usage of past-tense verbs, I'd say take it up with the translators. I again direct you to Wikipedia:No original research. The notion of Odin hanging himself to himself is accepted across the board. If you're cooking up some sort of theory here, I'd say do it elsewhere, but first you may want to take into account that Odin is overwhelmingly associated with death by hanging through numerous sources, examples including his very names (See: List of names of Odin - direct references to gallows and hanging abound) to human sacrifices by hanging for Odin attested as far back as the 1st century (Germania chapter 9). :bloodofox: (talk) 02:33, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Haelsa,

The so called 'established' ideas are wrong ;

1) In direct relation to the language used in translation as I have stated above and in relation to linguistic logic and the derivation of the word 'hung' itself

2) In relation to the interpretation of the actual events eg the fact that impalement is mentioned specifically - 'wounded with my spear' - whilst nothing with hanging as per a rope is mentioned at all.

3) The references to hanging and odin in other sources all relates to victims sacrificed to him - not 0one of those references relates as per his experience as per the runic initiation. He is the god of the hanged BUT NOT a hanged god - he is a hung god - as the interpretation of the runes on this site states in black and white.

4) The names of Odin as hanged god relate to the victims, again, of sacrifice

5) finally if wikkipedia is not a site for 'original research' - then does that mean that this in fact a site for no new developments in the field - or for anything for that matter.

No original research - can you please explain what that means - would that mean if a whole new discovery on some facet of odinic research was made then wikkipedia would not mention it ?

That is an absurd position for a site such as this to state. That is in fact a declaration that progress in this field is finished !

Is that a correct interpretation ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.205.230.240 (talk) 15:16, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Please familiarize yourself with these core Wikipedia policies: Wikipedia:No original research, WP:PROVEIT, and Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. Yes, that basically means Wikipedia does not allow users to add their own theories. Wikipedia simply reports, it does not engage in original research. :bloodofox: (talk) 15:56, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Haelsa,

Actually I have to agree that you are right.

I have done some research and we are both right, and both wrong.

Odin is a hanged god, but he his not hung from the neck.

He is not impaled as no evidence confirms that as per a kenning for his name, though hints can be established but no direct reference to impalement.

It appears the wounding by the spear may be a symbolic wounding, such as the cuts that a shaman would inflict on themselves in order to release endorphins to achieve a higher state of consciousness.

Odin is not hung by the neck - The position he is in when he is hung is that he is hung by the foot / feet upside down.

I assumed the reference to the hanged god, was a reference to being hung around the neck - and this had to be wrong as it conflicts with the astronomical symbolism as Cygnus is upside down - and therefore Odin had to be upside down.

This meant he could not be hung BY THE NECK, and he had to have been hung up by his feet or foot in order for him to hang upside down.

The fact Odin was hung upside down is confirmed here ;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hanged_Man_(tarot_card)

Where it states that Odin was hung upside down by the foot - so he was a hanged god, but not a god hung by the neck.

This fits in precisely with the required symbolism of the astronomy.

Take your planesphere and set it for midnight on the summer solstice , JUNE 21ST.

Odin as Cygnus is due South

He is depicted with his arms outstretched HANGING UPSIDE DOWN in the sky. The Milky Way is Yggdrasill from which he hangs.

Therefore we now know the following ;

1) He was not hanged by the neck but by the foot - this fits in with the linguistic requirements that he 'hung' ( had not been though the experience of being hanged by the neck as per that of an execution )

2) That he was a 'hanged god' as he is a person (only people can be hanged, objects are hung) but that the hanging was not that of a physical description of a stereotypical execution hanging - the hanging upside down allows both linguistic terms to be satisfied - he was hanged as he was a person and at the same time he hung from the rope, which describes the physical position of the rope as not being around the neck.

He was both hung and hanged.

3) That Cygnus correctly depicts Odin in the right position - him being hung upside down with his arms splayed out and head down.

4) That he was wounded with his spear, but that more evidence is required for impalement (my theory).

5) That this proves Cygnus is a representation of Odin

Thanks for getting me to look deeper into this issue as by so doing you have confirmed that the theory of mine - Yggdrasill is the Milky Way - is correct as the Cygnus symbolism can now be said to be in accord with both the requirement for Odin to be hanged, but that he had to be hung upside down in order to fit the astronomical requirements.

Your scepticism has proved to be most useful.

Freyr-Ottar —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.205.230.240 (talk) 16:59, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

More proof - human sacrifices were made to Odin up until the 10th century A.D. (by hanging them upside-down from gallows in a fashion similar to Odin's own self-sacrifice ).