Talk:Darwin (operating system)

Untitled discussion

I've begun expanding the article with work that's been done on the OpenDarwin page. There is alot of misconception WRT to the Darwin (XNU) kernel, and the reasons why it was chosen by Apple as the basis for Darwin, and by extention, Mac OS X.

It is *NOT* a microkernel, although it is based on one. It is a hybrid, and so does not have many (if any!) of the performance degredations that were inherrent in Mach's implementation.

Portability was not in fact, the main reason for choosing Mach as the basis of the kernel. Was portability the main requirement, there is another BSD kernel that has been far more widely ported, and hence, more portable. Mach *is* portable, but it's not the only reason.

At the time that Darwin was first released into the wild, the existing BSD kernels had no kernel support for threading, whereas Mach did (and was quite good at it). With the exception of FreeBSD, the BSDs at that time had no support for SMP hardware. FreeBSD's was very basic at that time as well. Mach was agressively multi-threaded, and had a more mature set of locking primitives, which made it run fairly well on small multi-processor machines that Apple intended to start selling.

The use of Mach-O instead of the newer ELF binary format has been critisized by many (manly as it's an older format and not widely used in other systems), although (to my knowledge at least) it offers a few advantages over ELF, such as the ability to host binaries for different CPU architectures in a single file, easing the distribution of the system (for example to non-technical users, who might otherwise buy a product for a machine that won't support it).

But of course, the biggest reason that Apple chose to use Mach as the basis of their kernel, is because of the fact that they bought NeXT, who had already done much of the work that would eventually become Mac OS X.

24.226.122.241 19:25, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Proper perspective of Mach "kernel"

I have reorganized this article and added some language to put the Mach microkernel and characteristics of Unix-like operating systems in a more appropriate perspective. This is not a criticism of Macs or Mach, but just an attempt to correct problems that I seem to see often in writings by Mac users and enthusiasts. The previous article did not suffer from all examples or degrees of these problems, but here are some of them:

• Not enough attention to the portability of microkernel architecture
• The misconception that Mach is a kernel (as utilized in Darwin)
• The misconception that Apple invented kernels or microkernels
• The misconception that multithreading, symmetric multiprocessing, protected memory, and a multiuser environment are new developments made possible by the Mach kernel
• The misconception that microkernel integration is automatically a Good Thing
• The misconception that Mach integration is the most interesting and important thing about Darwin
• Neglecting to mention historical problems and barriers to adoption of microkernels

211.128.87.99 01:25, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

It may be nice to mention some of the above to both Mach and kernel. -- Taku 01:29, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)

I'll take a look... overall I think the subject of kernels and microkernels is well represented. Things don't seem to get confused except when people are trying to describe Mac internals.

Darwin as a functionally open source operating system?...

I know that the licence for Darwin is free software/open source, but how does this translate into the real world? Are there significant communities of users who run Darwin on their computers without the Mac OS X? Do people distribute Dawin distributions on CD or DVD with the Darwin kernel and a windowing system and application software and such?

Also, how easy is it to get most Mac applications to run on Darwin without the rest of the Mac OS X? Or the better question might be, how easy do people think it will be to run those applications on an x86 computer running Darwin once those applications are re-written for the new Intel Macs? For example, would I be able to install a free Darwin distribution on my computer and then get it to run Final Cut Pro?

If anyone knows more about this than I do, please expand the article. Blackcats 07:13, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

The fundamental question here seems to have been skipped in the rhetoric war below. Darwin IS its own standalone OS, and is freely downloadable, and already has a couple of flavors. You can get a Darwin CD ISO from Apple, or download the OpenDarwin variant from their website. But the only things you'll be able to run on it are the types of software that are run on *BSDs and Linux distributions (Gimp, OpenOffice.org, Mozilla, etc). You can't run FCP on it because it's missing the proprietary Apple GUI and I/O libraries, that are not open source, or free software. --JohnDBuell 23:58, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Darwin it's not itself an operating system, it's just the kernel that power OS X. Being Darwin opensource there is also it's open counterpart called opendarwin. The opendarwin community also develop the a GNU-Darwin OS that is a free-software only OS and adopt GNOME as a userland enviroment. Luxiake 23:16, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Pardon? I think the server I have in my office running Darwin 8.3 would disagree with you there. --bbatsell | « give me a ring » 22:56, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

What is the user interface in your server? As I suppose is Gnome or KDE. If you call it Darwin OS is because there are no other distros as it occurs for every BSD-like kernel (FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD etc..). By contrast linux has millions of distros so you can't say "Linux is an OS". Linux is the kernel, and every distro is indeed a different OS. Soo.. OSX and GNU/Darwin are two different distros of the Darwin kernel. But OSX is released as propietary software, being Darwin released under the APSL, that allows Apple to "steal" the free-soul of Darwin. Luxiake 23:16, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

In the world you live in, given that Darwin is a kernel, what is XNU? And what is the difference between Darwin and XNU? Also in which files can I find Darwin's "free-soul"? Also assuming you have read and understand the BSD license, how can you "steal" something that is given away freely? Also could you point out for us the page on the opendarwin website where they mention that they also develop gnu-darwin? Just wondering. AlistairMcMillan 04:41, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

Given that I do not know anything about programmming, I also think you should must be more respectful toward any other member of the community, even if you are mad about Apple and he is critizing it's products. Remember, we share, they make the money, the very big money. Given this necessary introduction I will answer your questions one by one:

1. As Apple states: "Darwin is the core of Mac OS X. The Darwin kernel is based on FreeBSD and Mach 3.0". What is a kernel if not the core of an OS? Do you think that Darwin alone could be sold and distributed as an OS or just being a Core needs indeed to be completed with other libraries and services?[[1]]

2. The original combination of FreeBSD and mach is no longer referred as XNU, but as a code it is now lost in the hybride structure of Darwin, being Darwin an attempt to give a monolithic identity to a mix of nanokernel, microkernel and monolithic kernel.

3. The free soul of Darwin relies in its free BSD portion that is nearly 70% of its microkernel.

4. Stealing comes from the act of making profit. The super-profit of Apple computer comes from the high quality code of FreeBSD that is an opensource project and aggressive marketing of course.

5. I already gave you the link to GNU-Darwin, you Mac-Maniac.

Luxiake 10:52, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

(1) Darwin is a complete operating system itself. Feel free to download an ISO and find out for yourself.

(2) Just plain wrong. [2] [3] [4] [5] [6]

(3) and (4) If the BSD portion is "free" how can Apple "steal" it?

(5) I was not asking for a link to GNU-Darwin. I was trying to point out that the OpenDarwin people (who are mostly Apple employees) have nothing to do with the GNU-Darwin people (who as far as I know only re-package Darwin with GNU software and haven't contributed anything else). AlistairMcMillan 02:21, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

White flag, white flag. I surrender. You're right. After some research and pondering, I was convinced by your argument. Everything is clear now. XNU is the kernel. Darwin is the OS. And OSX it's just a GUI and a collection of apps that allow every common user to have a smooth computing experience, in few words: just a distribution of Darwin O S. And being this GUI a proprietary software, indeed prevent full compatibility with the GNU-Darwin distribution. Now that the truth is shown, all we have to do is to rethink the OSX article starting from the very beginnig, where it's stated that OSX is an Operating System. And I want this do be carried out very urgently, being very unjust and unfair that OSX is sold as an OS and not just as a commercial distro of the Darwin OS. Plus, in the OSX article Darwin is referred as a kernel. Plus Plus, in rewriting the OSX article I propose to work in a group formed by a few of MAC enthusiastics, that are obviously biased toward Apple's job, and Jobs. Luxiake 19:18, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

Plus Plus Plus, here's a definition of Darwin a friend found in a blog: "Darwin is the fundamental, UNIX core of Mac OS X, which can also exist as an operating system in its own right. The standard Darwin OS uses a command-line interface, is open sourced, meaning that anybody interested can make improvements to the foundation of Mac OS X.[...]Darwin handles all the hardware management, interprocess management, and protocol management of Mac OS X."[[7]] Luxiake 14:56, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

GNU-Darwin...

...is NOT an operating system. It is a project to package software to run on Mac OS X or Darwin, similar to DarwinPorts or Fink. Again, it is NOT an operating system. AlistairMcMillan 12:15, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm currently discussing this on the GNU-Darwin talk page, but I don't see how it can be discounted as an operating system, or a distro of Darwin. In the GNU-Darwin FAQs, it is referred to as both a distribution and an operating system. – Mipadi 16:45, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

GNU-Darwin is described as porting open-source software. Since GNU is very strong emphasising free-software, and there is a difference, I'd expect GNU-Darwin includes only free rather than simply open-source? But I'm not sure if this is a correct assumption so I've not edited it. – Stuzart 00:01, 02 Nov 07

Darwin as a functionally open source operating system?...(postwar edition)

Darwin is released by apple as binary packages. How can be this regarded as a OS? It's only after the work of the Opendarwin community that bootable Darwin CDs are released. Darwin it's not developed by Apple as a standalone OS. They develop OSX and darwin as a unique OS, and then only after they release any OSX edition, they release Darwin to the DEVs. Tecnically speaking Darwin is a set of binary packages released by apple for any OSX release. This is not clear at all in the article.

I think this has to be put clear once and always in order to avoid usless editwar Luxiake 11:59, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Technically speaking Luxiake should find a subject about which he is knowledgeable and stop editing on the subject of Mac OS X and Darwin (a subject about which he is not knowledgeable). Try reading the Darwin page at apple.com. http://developer.apple.com/darwin/ Look for the entry headed Darwin 8.0.1 Installer CD, that says The Darwin 8.0.1 Installer CD is available. The one that has four links that point to downloadable ISO installer images. AlistairMcMillan 16:00, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm sorry if my statements weren't precise enough. I wrote that after reading this [8] and following. These guys are opendarwin developers who are speaking, so please read carefully. You can understand that Darwin itself is not developed with the goal of being a standalone OS. Or better they are complaining about that.

After that, please drop your scornful attitude toward me. I used in the past to discredit you personally, but I understood that this attitude isn't fruitful nor civilized at all. We are working to a common project, or we are fighting for opposite causes? With your discreting GNU-Darwin you show you are too much biased in favour of Apple, and being and Administrator, I don't think you can contribute fairly to the common goals of wikipedia, or better you are discrediting Wikipedia's whole organization. I regret to say I'm very disappointed actually by this. I don't know if who gave you the authority is aware of such behaviour, but if this is the case, I certainly will stop contributing or consulting wikipedia.

Luxiake 18:49, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

One (notable?) thing about the Apple Darwin releases is that ISOs of the OS are made available after every major OS X release, but that updates are indeed released just as packages. It's up to someone else to make a Darwin/OpenDarwin 8.3 ISO image (corresponding to OS X 10.4.3). Dunno if this warrants inclusion or not. --JohnDBuell 16:38, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Is Darwin Apple's "Sourceforge?"

I learned about Darwin since I'm doing streaming video and I found the Darwin Streaming Server. It has nothing to do with the kernel/OS. Is Darwin a "Sourceforge" style site or incubator for its open source projects? --Migs 08:57, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Darwin is not a website, OpenDarwin.org is. They just used the name Darwin on a couple of open source projects. AlistairMcMillan 09:59, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

References

This article need references throughout the article, if the facts in this article can be found in the Darwin Reference Library. Then the various statements in the article needs to be references to the exact page where this information can be verified.

Screenshot

Shouldn't the screenshot be of Apple Darwin (and whatever its gui is) rather than OpenDarwin? Theshibboleth 03:51, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

...does it not have a standard GUI? The article does not mention this if so, and it's a rather important pice of information Theshibboleth

Which mach?

The article doesn't mention anywhere that Darwin is built on the Mach microkernel. I would like to add this, but I don't know if it is based on normal Mach or GNU Mach. Can someone more informed mention this? Gronky 00:45, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

In the sidebar it does mention the kernel, which is actually XNU, not Mach. – Mipadi 00:52, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

As Mipadi just said, the kernel is called XNU, but XNU is partially built on Mach. They probably used the original Mach kernel, and definitely not GNU Mach. If they had used GNU Mach, Apple would be bound to the General Public License for their releases, but they release their code under the GPL-incompatible APSL. --Unsound 05:52, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Mac OS 10.4.8 has been released; I don't know what version of Darwin that this is.

Releases

Is it appropriate to list Darwin 8.8.2 and Darwin 8.9 under the ‘Releases’ section when there aren't actually any public releases beyond 8.8.1? Also, given that Leopard's version of Darwin also isn't publicly available, is it similarly appropriate to list 9.4 as the current ‘Preview’ release? To my knowledge, Apple doesn't make the Darwin components available to anybody (including ADC Premier members) until after the retail OS has been released. I don't think they shouldn't be mentioned, by any means, but it's probably worth differentiating between the releases that you can actually get freely and the versions of the OS that exist only within Apple. Nevalicori 15:18, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Okay, Darwin 8.9 has been released (yesterday, I believe), which would make its release date the 18th April 2007, in contrast to the Mac OS X 10.4.9 release date currently shown. I'm loathed to change the page, though, if it breaks continuity—are past release dates all listed as the corresponding Mac OS X release date, or are any of them actual Darwin releases? Nevalicori 12:06, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

AppleFileServer

I was curious about Darwin and AppleFileServer, but the article doesn't mention it. Is AppleFileServer included in Darwin? If AppleFileServer is a part of the open source Darwin, are there any differences between the AppleFileServer included with Darwin and the binaries included in Mac OS X and Mac OS X Server? Again, just curious, but perhaps this could be included in the article too. Indexheavy 07:23, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Who wrote it?

The intro said it was developed by Apple and released by Apple and maintained by Apple, but IIRC, Apple just took the FreeBSD code, made some changes, release what was convenient (what they wanted others to maintain) and kept the nice stuff proprietary, and the maintenance mostly consists of integrating the code which is still being written by the FreeBSD devs.

I've updated the intro to be a half-way between what it used to say and what I think it should say (because my memory isn't clear and I don't have time to research the history right now). --Gronky 11:36, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

YDRC. The XNU kernel, for example, isn't just the FreeBSD kernel plus "some changes"; the stuff under the osfmk and iokit directories, for example, is not from FreeBSD at all, and a lot of the stuff under the bsd directory is from Apple (the VFS layer was redone in Tiger, including the new authentication code). Libc does incorporate a lot of stuff from FreeBSD, but the memory allocator isn't from FreeBSD, nor is any of the getXXbyYY code. A lot of the Darwin code does come from various non-Apple free software projects - but not all of it does, and a lot of the important stuff doesn't. (Some of it comes from Apple free software projects, e.g. Directory Services, which is in the Darwin source, and launchd.) Guy Harris 23:22, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, I agree the current version is certainly better. --Gronky 12:30, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Portal:Free software: Darwin is now the selected article

Just to let you know. The purpose of selecting an article is both to point readers to the article and to highlight it to potential contributors. It will remain on the portal for a week or so. The previous selected article was Cygnus Solutions, probably the first big free software business.

For other interesting free software articles, you can take a look at the archive of PFs selectees. --Gronky 16:33, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Time to move on. The new selectee is free software licences - a general article about the requirements and differences in FS licences. --Gronky (talk) 14:27, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Mach version

"Darwin is built around XNU, a hybrid kernel that combines the Mach 3 microkernel".

Isn't it supposed to be version 2.5??? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.146.124.117 (talk) 06:44, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

The link provided at the end of that paragraph goes to Apple's open source web site, which says Mach 3. NeXTSTEP and Rhapsody used Mach 2.5, but presumably, Apple updated it to Mach 3 by the time it was forked into Darwin/OS X. --typhoon (talk) 01:34, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Release history table

This section is kind of a mess—with all the different versions of OS X these days (Darwin's weird, inconsistent versioning history doesn't help)—and not that interesting besides (all the Mac OS X point-point releases border on minutiae). I've boldly changed it up a bit by limiting it to major releases (1.0, 1.2 ... 1.4, 6.0 ... 9.0) and changing it to a table like the Ubuntu Linux page used to that shows the release version, release date, corresponding OS X versions, and a Features and Changes column that shows what's new in each release (so far, only for the last two releases, but I'll try to research the others).

I removed the "See also" link to Étoilé because, while interesting, I don't know what it has to do with Darwin (it's appropriate for the GNUstep page, though).

--typhoon (talk) 19:29, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

OpenDarwin

I merged the OpenDarwin page into this page. Its page was pretty short because there wasn't a whole lot to say about the project (it was founded, it was shut down), and it was unlikely to ever get much bigger since the project has been dead for two years. Feel free to tell me if you don't like the change, though. --typhoon (talk) 20:44, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

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Statement on the Use of the Hexley Darwin Mascot Figure

Please see http://www.hexley.com/license.html I think the picture should be reinstated.