Talk:Creationism

See also: Creation science.
Until that article acknowledges the existence of proof, please do not claim it exists.

Revert by Ec5618

Ec5618 just reverted added text. I just wanted to state that in addition to the reason given for reverting I was about to revert the new text as commentary and not factual. - Tεx τ urε 22:03, 26 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Why aren't there any illustrations of people riding dinosaurs in the article? I saw them at a museum and know they are real, otherwise they would not have been there. It's obviously been overlooked. Somebody should remedy this immediately!--Blockhead 23:07, 26 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Religious context

"Liberal theology considers Genesis a poetic work, that human knowledge of God expands over time and that the early biblical stories show only the most primitive understanding of what was to become known as the Christian deity. In a Christian context, comparing the God of the early Jewish tribes to the God revealed in the figure of Christ clearly depicts how much theological understanding developed in between the writing of the various books that came to be collected in the Bible." - It is refreshing to see that such schools of thought are not deterred by the many references to the God of mercy (Deuteronomy 7:9, I Chronicles 16:34,II Chronicles 6:14, Psalm 86:15, Psalms 118 and 136, Psalm 145:8, and Isaiah 55:7 for a non-exhaustive list) and the demand for the treatment of strangers equally as Israelites (Exodus 12:49, 22:21, Leviticus 19:10,33-34, 23:22, 24:22, Numbers 15:15,19, Deuteronomy 24:20,21, and I Chronicles 6:32-33) in their theory of primitive understanding. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.32.122.241 (talk • contribs)

The paragraph seriously over-reached. I've re-written it. — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 16:47, 27 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

intro explanation

I've removed the second half of the opening paragraph for discussion. I don't understand what it means by equating "literal" with "physical", who it's supposed to be describing, what the metric is for determining what is "general", what the "spiritual nature" of human beings is supposed to be as a "foundation", or what it means by "declaring other views" ignorant and materialistic. So, I'm assuming that this is a point of view.

While the belief may be interpreted "literally" (i.e. in physical terms), religious discussion is generally limited to a spiritual meaning. Hence "creationism" simply emphasizes the spiritual nature of human beings, claiming such spiritual nature to be the foundation of all nature, and declaring other views to be materialistic and ignorant of spiritual concepts.

Also, the demiurge idea really doesn't belong in the introduction, does it? Especially the intro practically equated creation from pre-existing chaos with demiurge, which strikes me as very odd. — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 17:40, 27 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

NPOV

Whether Intelligent Design (ID) should be considered Creationism is questionable. As a theory, ID is intended to simply detect design among biological information. The philosophy behind it and the nature of the source of intelligence(s) is beyond the scope of ID. From Guillermo Gonzalez, assistant professor of astronomy, Iowa State University, Ames, "Creationists seek evidence to prove a particular interpretation of the book of Genesis in the Bible. They start with a specific set of prior religious commitments and seek evidence that conforms to those commitments. ID theorists start with the evidence of nature and remain open to possible evidence of design. This approach is no different from the approach taken by many of the founders of modern science." See these: http://www.discovery.org/scripts/viewDB/filesDB-download.php?command=download&id=526 http://www.discovery.org/scripts/viewDB/index.php?command=view&id=2834&program=CSC&callingPage=discoMainPage http://www.discovery.org/scripts/viewDB/index.php?command=view&program=CSC&id=2824&callingPage=discoMainPage

--Swmeyer 23:10, 29 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The links you provide are to the Discovery Institute, whose "Wedge Document" (a leaked internal memorandum) makes it clear that they intend their advocacy of "intelligent design" to be an entering wedge for specifically Christian theistic doctrine. (That's sometimes misquoted as "theocratic", but that's an error.) See our article Wedge strategy for discussion of this, founded on many many citations from creationists/IDists.

ID is accurately described as the second generation of "creation science", or attempts to dress creationism in scientific terminology ... whilst denying or ignoring scientifically-gathered evidence against it. --FOo 00:03, 30 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Really? Let's deconstruct it:

Design:verb

1. to sketch an outline for; plan

2. to contrive

3. to plan to do; intend

4. to make original plans

Design:noun

1. a plan; scheme

2. purpose; aim

3. a working plan

4. pattern

5. arrangement of parts, form, color, etc

6. artistic invention

Notice something about all of these definitions? All of the verbs are active, involving someone carrying something out. All but one of the nouns assume purpose as well, someone to plan, scheme, aim, arrange or invent. Definitionally speaking, the word "design" implies a "designer". Design as used in "intelligent design" is a euphemism for creationism. You have to hand it to the creationists... they've evolved.

Foo's right, the Discovery Institute claims it isn't creationism as part of their Wedge strategy. FeloniousMonk 00:13, 30 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

FeloniousMonk, I found no mention of claims of not being creationism in the Wedge strategy document linked.

First, the wedge strategy has been made into a conspiracy when it is clearly not.

Second, the methods used to detect design in fraud and in SETI are those employed in ID, specifically applied to biology. There is science behind it, and it is being ignored and described just as you both do. Here's a description of the method for detection: specification.

I could go into more, but check these out first. --Swmeyer 01:22, 30 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I'm already very familiar with the DI's response to the Wedge document. I consider Phillip E. Johnson statements on the Wedge made extemporaneously to carry significantly more credibility than a policy statement about a document that calls for dissembling and obfuscation as a matter of policy.

"So the question is: "How to win?" That’s when I began to develop what you now see full-fledged in the "wedge" strategy: "Stick with the most important thing" —the mechanism and the building up of information. Get the Bible and the Book of Genesis out of the debate because you do not want to raise the so-called Bible-science dichotomy. Phrase the argument in such a way that you can get it heard in the secular academy and in a way that tends to unify the religious dissenters. That means concentrating on, "Do you need a Creator to do the creating, or can nature do it on its own?" and refusing to get sidetracked onto other issues, which people are always trying to do." [1]
"Our strategy has been to change the subject a bit so that we can get the issue of intelligent design, which really means the reality of God, before the academic world and into the schools." [2]
"This isn't really, and never has been a debate about science. Its about religion and philosophy." [3]
"The objective (of the wedge strategy) is to convince people that Darwinism is inherently atheistic, thus shifting the debate from creationism vs. evolution to the existence of God vs. the non-existence of God. From there people are introduced to 'the truth' of the Bible and then 'the question of sin' and finally 'introduced to Jesus.'" [4]

The cats already out of the bag on this, it's too late to try to deny the obvious. FeloniousMonk 02:49, 30 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

FeloniousMonk, if you are familiar and willing to hear them, then I'm surprised you did not consider these points as legitimate. I hope you know I'm not trying to deny anything. I agree that the wedge document exists, that Johnson is the self-proclaimed strategist behind it, and that there is a strategy to attempt a reverse of the naturalistic/materialistic assumptions existent in modern science/modernity. What I don't see is the conclusions that (1) anything they say to the contrary should be rejected on face and (2) the merits of their research/arguments should not be considered. I will post a rebuttal of your interpretation of the wedge strategy over there. Here I will address the sources you site.

Your first citation comes from the Touchstone interview. If you look at the context, this is right after he said he started to think of this like a political campaign or litigation because people would not listen to the evidences. Of course, this is a characterization. When he says "How to win" he is saying this as if he was in the characterization. Nevertheless, I admit there is strategy involved here, what he calls the "wedge strategy." If you look at the components, they are (1) stick to the basics--that no mechanism exists in Darwin's theory that could result in the buildup of information, (2) do not go into Genesis so as to avoid the Bible-science conflicts, and (3) to avoid discussions of theology that would otherwise not allow for entry into the secular community. If you look at these three items, with a great deal of suspicion it is possible to see this as a conspiracy for religion to undermine science. I offer you an alternative--it is good strategy that is intended to put to the forefront what he saw as worthy of consideration without getting caught up in less significant things.

Your second citation comes from an online article that sites Johnson from a unnamed radio show--not a very good source. It's secondary and without mention of the context of this statement.

Your third source is a quote from Johnson printed in World Magazine in 1996. In context of what Johnson has said elsewhere, it is clear he is saying the same thing--philosophical naturalism is what was always at issue. In fact, I heard him say this exact thing in 2000 elsewhere. Around minute 21, he lays out the skeptical case as an extrapolation from minor changes discovered in evidence to assert that everything developed thusly. At 23:21 of the MP3, he says, "There's been a tremendous amount of debate about all of those propositions in the skeptical case (which he just laid out). Most of that debate has centered upon the philosophical issues rather than on the accuracy of any particular piece of scientific information." He continues on to explain why he thinks so--a precommitment to naturalism that cannot handle the data. Thus, he is properly (in his view) funnelling the debate down to issues that are not about science. (Note he sees a precommitment to philosophical naturalism like a religion--you can see an example in his mention of Dobzhansky on page 34 of your fourth source).

Within your fourth source I do not find the quote you mention. I did a word search for objective (8 hits), convince (14), inherently atheistic (0), debate (15), shifting the debate (0), Jesus (5--all by Michael Ruse), Bible (7--5 by Ruse, 1 by Johnson that was irrelevant). In summary, no place in this source does he say this.

In summary, your sources show that Johnson understands the debateand his strategy seems solid.

Swmeyer 05:44, 30 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Yup. There really isn't any doubt that "Intelligent Design" is just another way to spell "Divine Intervention", and should be treated as such in this and other articles. Its proponents' words speak for themselves.

Dembski's work isn't science; it's a poor & fraudulent imitation of philosophy of science that seems to fall apart as soon as anyone asks him to define his terms. See these refutations by actual nonfraudulent scientists and philosophers of science: [5] [6] --FOo 02:55, 30 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Subheader

I have to say that I believe ID is inescapably connected to religious explanations of origins for several reasons.

First, the basis of ID, that because certain characteristics are too complex to have evolved without direction, i.e. natural selection, there must have been an intelligent agent responsible, relies the assumption that there can only two possible explanations for the origin of these biological mechanisms: either undirected natural forces or intelligent intervention, which is in itself a logically invalid explanation because it precludes other explanations.
Second, that an intelligent intervention is assumed as a possibility is not scientific, for it can not be empirically proven. For example, why is the possibility of the universe itself being naturally "intelligent" in a way so as to manipulate the creation of such characteristics implicitly deemed impossible? Further, why is it also implicitly deemed impossible that primitive life could not have acted collaboratively to evolve these mechanisms? I say that these possibilites are implicitly precluded because my first point about ID, that it is assumed there are only two possible explanations, implies that no other explanations are even possible, and that by process of elimination, intelligent intervention is the only other possibility.
Third, one cannot use a lack of explanation for certain phenomenon as evidence for a theory. Ignorance does not translate into knowledge. Thus, a lack of evidence is used as evidence to prove the theory. This logic risks becoming a fallacy because it is dangerously close to, if not, the fallacy of insufficient sample and the fallacy of circular reasoning.
Fourth, 'William Dembski, one of ID's leading proponents, has stated that the fundamental claim of ID is that "there are natural systems that cannot be adequately explained in terms of undirected natural forces and that exhibit features which in any other circumstance we would attribute to intelligence."' His statement implies that intelligence itself could not have arisen naturally, using the idea that intelligence could not have arisen naturally and using it to prove that natural "intelligence" could not have caused these characteristics, because it cannot arise naturally, etc. I see such a statement to fall into the category of circular reasoning. While William Dembski may perhaps not represent the entirety of proponents to ID, being establisher of the Michael Polanyi Center at Baylor University and a Postdoctoral Research Fellow at the Discovery Institute's Center for Science and Culture, it is reasonable to accept Dembski as an authority in ID.
Fifth, because ID does not propose any hypotheses, is not verifiable or falsifiable, lacks empirical evidence, does not apply a heuristic, etc., it is therefore pseudoscience and thus not valid as actual science and not valid as material to be taught in a science classroom.

In conclusion, I think that ID is a pseudoscientific tool to justify creationism as valid among scientists. Its connection to creationism is undeniable, as it falls under the condition of being claimed a conspiracy to suppress a theory (evolution through natural selection) due to ulterior motives (promoting religion in general, creationism especially). However, if we perceive ID as valid, then also must we accept FSMism as equally valid. As such, it would be wrong in the principles of education to teach ID and wrong in the principles of science to accept it as a valid, scientific theory.

I look forward to your thoughts of support or rebuttal.

--ZendarPC 05:56, 30 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

ZendarPC, I appreciated the tone of your critique. However, I think there are solid reasons to think otherwise.

On your first point on the assumption that there can only two possible explanations for the origin of these biological mechanisms, Darwinian evolutionary theory (DET) puts forth randomness as the explanatory mechanism without any possibility of design. Many ID proponents actually hold to various perspectives that include randomness as well as design. They are not holding these views as mutually exclusive in all cases. However, what is an either-or is (1) either randomness accounts for what appears to be designed (admittedly so by Dawkins) or (2) there is something other than randomness (antonym of random is with purpose) that is necessary to account for what appears to be designed. In that sense, it is an either-or. But in the bigger picture, the interaction of randomness and design is a perfectly viable option. For example, forensic science, history, and archaeology all sometimes theorize about agency to account for particular data.
On your second point, design is detected through Dembski's explanatory filter. It is scientific in that it puts forth rigorous methods to detect complex specified information and, using statistical methods, determine that it is more reasonable to infer design than attribute the existence of that information to natural selection acting on random mutations. For more info, see this and this and this and this.
On your third point, ID does not claim to use DET's lack of explanation for certain phenomenon as evidence for ID. Rather, many ID proponents see DET as lacking, which requires another theory to make sense of the phenomenon. This requires rigorous research to see if alternative theories offered can make sense of the data better. There are methods, as I pointed you to above, that actually are in support of detecting design.
On your fourth point, it is reasonable to accept Dembski as one authority on ID. However, I'm not sure I see the circular reasoning in what he was saying. I interpret your quote to say that there are phenomena in natural data that we would call intelligence in any other system and that it cannot arise from random mutations and natural selection. Can you elaborate on your point?
On your fifth point, while I do not agree with all your claims, I am undecided on the issue of whether ID should be included in classrooms. However, what I am sure of is that if ID should not be included because it is not actual science, then naturalistic interpretations of scientific data that underlies DET as taught in classrooms should not be taught, either.

Please get back to me on your fourth point or any pushbacks you may have.

--Swmeyer 21:08, 7 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Swmeyer. On your rebuttal on ZendarPC's first point:

There are not just two concepts. ID's focus on 'irreducible complexity' suggests it does accept that biology exists, as a field of study, and is not merely an elaborate ploy to keep us for seeing the truth. In another concept we are living in the Matrix. All you see is computer generated.

On your rebuttal on the second point:

When I use a lowpass filter on my holiday snapshots I am using a scientifically devised tool. I am not engaging in science. That Dembski (and others) use scientific tools to do their 'studies' doesn't mean they are engaging in science. Assuming a supernatural explanation explains everything, and therefor explains nothing. It just creates logical paradoxes (who or what designed the designer?, for one).

On your rebuttal of the third point:

Most arguments I have heard ID advocated make are along these lines: "Evolutionary theory is just a theory, and its lacking. Oh, and which do you find more realistic; that the world came about by chance, or that it was created by the supernatural and allpowerful supernatural entity you already believe in?" In other words, "evolution is incomplete, so there's no shame in denouncing it. Believe in us."

On your question regarding point four:

1. This (item) shows signs of intelligent design (it is irreducibly complex, meaning no-one can imagine it coming about by chance).

2. It must have been designed by an intelligence.

3. That intelligence is therefor irreducibly complex.

4. Return to step 1.

On your comment regarding the fifth point:

Science is naturalistic. There was time when the church encouraged scientists to use only naturalism, as science was supposed to compliment religion, not supplant nor blindly follow it (which is, apart from being an interesting bit of trivia, neither here nor there). To science the supernatural does not exist. And be thankful for that. Because science would not accept the supernatural explanation that disease is caused by demons, research into diseases has yielded powerful antibiotics.

Evolution is naturalistic, and falsifiable (though it hasn't been). And no matter how hard people try (many people have tried to uproot evolution) they can never find a single fossil in the wrong layer of rock. Imagine, a single fossil of a newborn human baby or a schnauzer in a layer of rock we've always assumed to be from a time in which dinosaurs ruled the world. Such a find should have been found, statistically, if the Earth is young. Unless we're being purposely deceived. -- Ec5618 23:42, 7 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Ec5618, I'm not going to do any more pushbacks because my original point is that ID is not creationism. There are a number of points that are beyond my expertise to make, but I know they are to be made. I'd suggest giving the guys at Discovery a chance. Hear their explanations and arguments. They are not out to enforce their religion on anyone. It's not a smoke screen. They really think they are onto something.

Swmeyer's NPOV template and NPOV objection is baseless. Advocates of intelligent design argue that their ideas are not necessarily religious or creationism, yet in their statements to their constituency they don't deny the obvious. Is intelligent design fundamentally creationism in a new suit? Read its leading proponents claims:

"... intelligent design should be understood as the evidence that God has placed in nature to show that the physical world is the product of intelligence and not simply the result of mindless material forces. This evidence is available to all apart from the special revelation of God in salvation history as recounted in Scripture. ... To be sure, creationists who support intelligent design think it does not go far enough in elucidating the Christian understanding of creation. And they are right! ... Even so, there is an immediate payoff to intelligent design: it destroys the atheistic legacy of Darwinian evolution. Intelligent design makes it impossible to be an intellectually fulfilled atheist. This gives intelligent design incredible traction as a tool for apologetics, opening up the God-question to individuals who think that science has buried God" -- William A. Dembski [7]
"And another thing I think we need to be aware of is that not every instance of design we see in nature needs to be directly attributed to God. Certainly as Christians we believe there is an angelic hierarchy - it's not just that there's this physical material world and there's God. There can be various hierarchies of intelligent beings operating, God can work through what can be called derived intelligences - processes which carry out the Divine will, but maybe not perfectly because of the fall." - William A. Dembski. Address to Fellowship Baptist Church, Waco, Texas, March 7, 2004
"My colleagues and I speak of 'theistic realism'-- or sometimes, 'mere creation' -- as the defining concept of our [the ID] movement. This means that we affirm that God is objectively real as Creator, and that the reality of God is tangibly recorded in evidence accessible to science, particularly in biology." -- Phillip E. Johnson. Starting a Conversation about Evolution

If the only NPOV objection is that ID is not a form of creationism, then I'm taking the template down. His objections have been thoroughly rebutted and largely now dismissed at the ID related articles, and his private campaign to redefine ID and mitigate any criticism of it is apparent, being watched, and going to stop. FeloniousMonk 23:10, 7 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

FeloniousMonk, I can see you haven't looked at anything I've put up here because you are already dismissing what I've said. Context of discussions are signficant in your out of context quotes above. If ID was creationism, then why would agnostic scientists think there is something to it? Answer that question sufficiently, and you can take the NPOV off. Until then, I will hold to the opinion that your campaign to cloud ID with creationist tones is unfounded. Your conclusion that it must be is your own theological/philosophical conclusion. It does not necessarily follow from ID. Implications and motivations aside, ID is not creationism, and those who know about it such as Ronald Numbers agree.

--Swmeyer 02:05, 8 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Doctrine of Creation

This page has little to do with the doctrine of creation, which is concerned with much much more than origins. The Doctrine of Creation should NOT redirect here. These topics are related but not identical. Kiwirad

Recently removed from this article: Creation Dates

Different historical cultures and religions believed that the earth was created on different dates. Many historical calendars were based on these dates.

Jewish - 25 September or March 29 3760 BCE
Christian - Sept/Oct 4004 BCE
Maya - August 11 or August 13, 3114 BCE
Byzantine Empire - September 1, 5509 BCE

Could we move this list somewehere else? Origin beliefs perhaps? It seems a waste to just delete it. One question though: on what are these dates based? Are they clear from scripture, or have them been deduced by scolars? -- Ec5618 14:14, 1 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

It is somewhere else: Dating creation. Joshuaschroeder 14:20, 1 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Geocentrism

...and a few even support such ideas as geocentrism.

I am not familiar with any Creationists who are believers of geocentrism. I thought we all knew by now that the Earth revolves around the sun, etc. This almost appears to be condescending to Creationists in general. Can we just omit the statement? Salva 22:41, 4 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I'd change it to 'a very few'. It's hard not to be condescending to creationists. Dante 02:28, 7 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Talk:Creationism

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