Talk:Sōsuke Aizen

Hollow King

Would people please stop adding "Aizen is the hollow king" to every single article that mentions Aizen? Obviously, he is the hollow king, but we don't have enough information about what that actually means to really include it. Once we do have enough information, it will probably end up being a rather large section of the article, but for now, it's pretty pointless. --Tjstrf 21:36, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Does there have to be spoilers in the first two lines? I didn't know he was a bad guy...

First two lines of which, this talk page or the article? All we said was that he is the antagonist in the article, which is about as minimal as you can get while still identifying the villian. His primary definition is that he is the villian. --tjstrf 21:13, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

The article, obviously... and what exactly is what you said supposed to mean? You basically said he was the villain and restated it... I don't think it should be there. Maybe under something with "spoilers" over it. I'm on episode 35 and I was looking up the names of the different captains because I wasn't learning the names too well, and you come here and its like "pow". When does he become the villain? Is it soon or way later? I think if a character isn't introduced as a bad guy it shouldn't be included right in the intro. Most of the other character's intros on Wikipedia seem is if they were written with information given in their first episode they were in.

The article contains a spoiler warning at the top. There is very little else that can be done to warn readers that it reveals information. Wikipedia is not a promotional guide and therefore we can't just hide important plot information for the sake of readers not far into the series. Characters in Bleach series, although also containing spoilers, may be a better read for those who simply want to learn names. -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 10:47, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

It didn't when I came here, but I'm glad to see it now, thanks.

The opening credits for episode 97 of the anime feature Aizen in his new look holding the Orb of Distortion on his right palm. Guido MTY 14:11, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Aizen's "shining glasses"

I'm not sure if it's worth mentioning in the article, and I've only seen it in the newest anime episode 60 (because I didn't notice it until just now, so I don't know if it occurs in Aizen's earlier appearances). But, as he talks, Aizen's glasses often change between clear, when you can see his eyes, shining with lens glare, or a half-half appearance where one lens is completely clear while the other is obscured with light. This could be a clever little reference to Aizen himself, who enshrouds his real self (people often identify someone's gaze and eyes as something revealing a person's inner self) behind a good natured, kind personality (light) that blinds people to what he really is by using his Kyōka Suigetsu. --Mr Bucket 15:52, 8 December 2005 (EST)

While it is true that Aizen is often drawn with his glare on his glasses, you cannot say that it is intended to represent the way he conceals his true self. Unless the author either says so directly or makes obvious references that it is symbolic, it shouldn't be included. Basically, it would be personal opinion. --Tjstrf 10:36, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Understood. I feel it's still a possibility (especially the unshading as he says "no one understood...the real me"), but it's not something that can be proven. I'm new to wikipedia editing, so I'd like to ask...should all this be left up?--Mr Bucket 15:52, 8 December 2005 (EST)

The discussion? Of course. It becomes part of the archive when you post it here, and can't be permanently deleted anyway. --Tjstrf 10:51, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

The effect of Aizen's glasses changing from clear to opaque is a common effect found in anime. You might notice the same thing happens to Ishida's glasses as well. This even occurs in Hollywood movies like Sin City, with the character Kevin's glasses constantly reflecting glare. I don't think this really says anything except "the production team likes to use tried and true effects." --Brash 07:30, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Ever read Hellsing? They use virtually the same effect for characters who don't even have glasses, by making one of their eyes be in a shadow. I guess there's just something cool about having only 1 visible eye... --tjstrf 17:36, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

i love the shining glasses which make him different

Uses hypnosis in combat

There are differences in Aizen's fight with Hitsugaya between the anime and the manga. In the manga he can't be seen (and thus said) to have used hypnosis but in the anime he can. I was just wondering if the article could reflect this. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Casmith81 (talk • contribs) .

Good point. Distinction now present. --tjstrf 17:57, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Use of illusions and catching Ichigo's bankai

I know Aize is powerful, but in addition to the fact he uses his illusionary abilities in the battle agains the various captains shoudn't it also be noted that both Ichigo and Renji were both severely weakened from previous battles which may have been why he caught Ichigo's bankai. Or is that considereid to minor to mention?

It's not that it was a minor factor, it's that it's immensely obvious. --tjstrf 04:58, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Shouldn't it still be mentioned for those who haven't read it?

We don't want to spoil everything, do we? -- Seraphchoir 18:40, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Aizen Picture

Anyone disagree with putting the pic on the right as the main Aizen picture instead of his shinigami guise? -Gdo01

I disagree. That new one you've got there is rather ugly. I wouldn't object to the use of the second image in the present article as the main one, though. Also, I believe that having a picture of his original guise is important. --tjstrf 22:14, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

For the record Dark glaive replaced Aizen's main picture not me. Gdo01 02:37, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Honestly I would just go with this look --Bushido Brown 14:03, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

I think that no changes to Aizen's character page must be made until the Arrancar story arc from the manga starts in the anime. As far I'm concerned about Aizen's recently released picture, I'm not objecting against it but perhaps would be wise to wait.Guido MTY 14:05, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Aizen looks ridiculous in the first picture with glasses. This picture is soooooo much better, don' you guys love that curly hair coming down his face. Besides the the geek with glasses was a fake persona that he made up, this is the real thing. I think we should have two pictures somewhere on the page; one of them should be this anime picture and the other one should be the 18th page of manga chapter 244 where you get to see Aizen in his full hollow uniform. noman953

The first picture is his original form, less spoilery, and the one from the opening credits is just ugly. If you want a picture of him looking evil, use Image:Aizentrue.JPG. --tjstrf 22:51, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Who cares about spoilers. A picture doesn't give anything away so I don't what's the big concern with spoilers, because everything written on this page is a spoiler as it should be. Both the pictures on this page are ugly. The only good ones are the ones that I mentioned previously. Why do you want Aizen to continue looking ridiculous when both the manga and the anime have better pictures of him. noman953

Excuse me as I scoff the idea that he looks any less ridiculous in the new image than the old ones. Aizen is, to put it bluntly, ugly in pretty much all frontal poses. --tjstrf 05:52, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

We have agreed regarding Kisuke Urahara not to include a spoiler image at the top. Yes, the text is also a spoiler, but it has a spoiler warning at the top which is easily visible before reading anything. However, a spoiler picture is immediately in your face before you can heed the spoiler warning. It's fine to have spoiler pictures farther down where the user has to scroll down. -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 17:24, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

The picture depicting Aizen's power to create illusory bodies should be removed as it is non-canon. - Tsjirf 28, November 2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.243.223.25 (talk) 08:38, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

He has demonstrated that he can make illusory bodies. Remember the very first one that we saw when he faked his death? Thats an illusion.--Hanaichi 09:55, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

That has nothing to do with the picture depicting his use of this power. It could still misinform; Aizen has never before been seen to make such bodies of arrancar/hollows. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.167.47.93 (talk) 15:31, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, he has. He faked Ulqiorra's body in order to mess with some rebel arrancar. Or did you watch the anime? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.48.43.190 (talk) 07:17, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

So, what, you want a picture of Aizen holding a fake version of himself instead? ~SnapperTo 19:32, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Statement about illusions in battle

Why has this been taken out? I know it says he is stronger then a normal captain (whatever qualifies as normal), but until his is in an actual fight and doesn't use it how is that statment speculation?

"While turning Wonderwice Margera into an arrancar, it should be noted he states that the Orb of Distortion can be fully activated if only half awakened from hibernation by temporarily fusing with someone with twice as much spirit power as a captain-level shinigami, followed by him activating it. This determines that his spirit power is at least twice as much as that of a normal captain."

This is referenced and likely true. Gdo01 08:16, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

There is also the recent chapter where he brought down Grimmjow just by using spiritual pressure, and Grimmjow has got to be at captain level at least. -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 10:35, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

The phrase stop at nothing.

It doesn't mean you are omnipotent. It's a statement of intention, that you do not intend to be stopped. Compare the (not actually existant) United States Postal Service creed, "Neither snow nor rain nor heat nor gloom of night...". Obviously if there was to be a 20 foot snowfall, the postal service would indeed be stopped. However, the purpose of the statement is not that they are unstoppable, but that they intend to be.

In other words, "Aizen will stop at nothing to complete his goals" means "Aizen will not refrain from any action, no matter how extreme, to complete his goals", or alternately "Aizen intends to complete his goals, regardless of cost or extremity". It does not mean "Aizen is unstoppable".

This has been your idiom lesson for the day.--tjstrf Now on editor review! 20:12, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Both are true. Suigetsu

New Picture

wow we have the new anime picture at last but I wonder how long it'll be up there until spoiler fearing people decide to remove it. oh well I still feel the manga picture which shows Aizen full uniform would be better. Try 18th page of manga chapter 244 where you get to see Aizen in his full hollow uniform. noman953

~25 seconds from your message being posted here. --tjstrf Now on editor review! 23:02, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Interesting. Tousen and Ichimaru can have new pictures of themselves. Yet when Aizen gets a new picture its spoilerish. I think most of the editors want Aizen's new picture to be here, on the bottom of the page if not the top. noman953

200

So how do we feel about this picture? Gdo01 17:17, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

perfect. though I would prefer something with more of a body shot. but I guess this will do. noman953

I still don't understand why Noman so vehemently opposes the current anime picture from the end of the Soul Society arc, but I will also support a higher-res manga image such as the one to the right. -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 10:57, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

People already know that Aizen is an antagonist, I think we can put the picture of his new self up 18:45, 21 November 2006

I'm not opposed to replacing the 2nd image we have of Aizen (from his ascent) with the manga scanned one either. But all the other characters (except Komamura) have their original forms as the top image, not their "true" forms. --tjstrf talk 23:48, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

listen Ynhockey the main reason I oppose the old picture is because you have no problem writing story line spoilers but when Aizen's gets a spoilerish picture you go ballistic. where's the sense in that? ichimaru and tousen have new pictures at the bottom of their pages, yet Aizen doesn't. why is that? and why has the new picture been removed "again"? I'm compromising my views by agreeing to have a picture that doesn't really have much of a body shot and is included at the bottom of the page. But if that's still too spoiler-like for you than why do you allow ichimaru and tousen page to have the same luxury? (this is not the first time I asked this question)--noman953

Aizen's motives with Orihime

I have removed the following text from the synopsis:

It seems he wants to use Orihime Inoue to restore the "hogyoku" to the time before he began using it since it had become cracked due to being repeatedly used in creating more and more arrancar. Yet, from his unwavering smile and other facial expressions there are hints that this may not be the real reason he captured Orihime, and that he may in fact be well aware of her plan to use her power to undo the "hogyoku's" existence rather than repair it.

It can probably be inferred that Aizen wants Orihime to restore the hogyoku, but it hasn't actually be said, that part is debatable. His reasons for bringing her to Hueco Mundo have already been explained in chapter 240 - her abilities can give Aizen access to the very realm of god (or at least, probably breach that protection of the separate realm/dimension the King of Soul Society is in, stretching that a bit).

As for the rest, that Aizen knows of Orihime's own intentions regarding the hogyoku, that is purely speculative, and much to speculate on his smiles/expressions. If he thought as much, the LAST place he would be letting her be would be near the toy he's taken such pains to gain.

144.135.138.156 18:45, 20 December 2006 (EDST)

You totally misunderstood what he meant when he said she encroaches on the realm of god. What he meant was "her power is equal to that of a divine being", not "she can take me to the SS king's realm". I'm readding it. --tjstrf talk 07:54, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Whether anon here is correct or not, the whole section is still speculative. I don't believe it states anywhere what Aizen's motives are and what exactly he plans to do with Orihime. Even if he does, half the section is cruft (facial expressions?) If someone can provide evidence suggesting that Aizen indeed wants Orihime to restore the orb, please post it here and I will attempt to re-word the section. -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 18:51, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, looks like the usual can of worms. The translation I've read (and this may be a part of it?) of Ch249 has Aizen saying "It's the power to easily step over the horizon of events decided by god." and "It's the power to infiltrate the domain/realm of god." The former certainly implies divine power, but the way the latter is worded - Aizen's true motive revealed in Ch223(?) is to gain access to the realm of the Spirit King of Soul Society - do you see where I'm getting this from? The ruler over Soul Society, is this God? On the throne of heaven Aizen's going to seat himself on? Again, maybe translation is everything.

The Commander General in Ch223 talks about the Ou Ken, the key to the King's realm, and that Aizen looked at documents of the time about when the Ou Ken was made. Whether Orihime's powers would allow Aizen to recreate the circumstances of the making of the key or allow him to bypass the key altogether?

But I removed the original text (getting back to the point) because Aizen shows Orihime the hogyoku, telling her "the fact that I'm showing you this...think of this as proof of my trust in you". He doesn't actually ask her to repair the hogyoku, even if it is depleted he says "it's clearly going forward toward a complete awakening". It's never said anywhere that he wants her to fix/restore it, only that he wants her to use her powers for him. The rest is an awful lot of speculation about what's implied or not.

Maybe the best thing is simply add to the synopsis that he shows her the orb of distortion and asks/demands that she use her power for him? That much at least is crystal clear. 144.135.138.156 09:35, 21 December 2006 (EDST)

There is really no point at all in speculating on this as it is a future plot point. It's purposefully being left ambiguous so that when Orihime puts her plan into action Aizen's counter plan will be more surprising. Just leave it like it is at the moment or leave something generic like "Aizen has shown an interest in Orihime's powers". Jargon 03:24, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Aizen uses Kyōka Suigetsu in combat, in the manga.

In chapter 176, pages 9-11, Aizen clearly uses his illusions in combat. On page 9, Komamura sees Aizen next to Tousen. On page 10, Aizen is directly in front of Komamura. Komamura glances down, sees Aizen, thinks "impossible". On page 11, Komamura looks back up, and sees Aizen's illusionary copy which is melting away into the air. For those who wish to claim artistic error, Aizen confirms the deliberate intent of the drawn representation on page 13 of the same chapter, where he talks about how awesome the hypnotic skill is.

End of debate regarding Aizen's power use in combat, do not add any more speculation. --tjstrf talk 08:17, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Aizen, Gin, Kaname

I thought they were like Ichigo and repressed their inner hollows to become arrancar.

While it is logical to assume that they will become vizard to increase their powers at this point there has been no indication that they are vizards yet. Jargon 00:26, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Antagonist?

Does anyone think that describing Aizen as an antagonist is a spoiler? When he is first introduced, he is portrayed as Hinamori's hero not the enemy. 209.195.93.63 00:50, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

It's a definite spoiler, but I don't think we should compromise the integrity of our articles out of fear of spoilers. Anyone who doesn't want spoilers can refer to the main Bleach (manga) page or Characters in Bleach. -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 16:52, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

But people don't know that. The second someone who's watching the English dub (like me >_>), reads the unspoilered part and realizes he's the antagonist. Thank you Wikipedia for ruining the show. I am being overdramtic here, because I personally don't mind I've been spoiled, but I don't think others will be the too happy about this. I don't know how to change this, so the faster someone can change the top section the better.ArchKnight47 07:43, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Same can be said of a fansite. Wikipedia doesn't cater to spoiler freaks. Their fault for reading when they haven't caught up. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 07:58, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

On that note, I'm trying to start a discussion about what exactly in Bleach is (still) a spoiler, and would appreciate input. See WT:BLEACH#Spoiler warnings: to use or not use? --tjstrf talk 08:37, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Another new Aizen picture

I for one dislike that captain picture coz it makes him look like a dork...:( i prefere this one much more image:Aizen_Sousuke.jpg —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Marik248 (talk • contribs) 21:32, 11 May 2007 (UTC).

The one you wish to be posted as his article picture doesn't illustrate much. Besides, we already have a picture of him with slicked-back hair and no glasses, so having one of him before his departure of Soul Society would be best. // DecaimientoPoético 21:43, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Spoiler reason

Can someone quickly explain the compelling reason for including a spoiler tag here? Phil Sandifer 21:21, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

In addition to the reasons listed on the hidden comment? Simply put, there's a major plot twist involving him which has not yet been shown in the English anime version (maybe not in the English manga either, not sure), which is all that many of our current readers will be following. Once the twist has happened in the English anime I'll be happy to be rid of the tag.

The normal "readers should expect spoilers in character articles" reasoning doesn't apply, since to the knowledge of the English anime audience he is a murder victim, and thus not eligible to be doing anything at all.

So, since for a good chunk of Wikipedia's target audience this article describes what are as yet future events in the series, but (unlike the biographies of other characters such as Grimmjow who are still years from debuting in English) it is an article which they are likely to read if they are looking for information on events which have been shown to them, and reading it would spoil the current plot, I believe the tag aids the article. We have also received complaints about the page before, even when it was tagged. --tjstrf talk 23:57, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Fair enough - I'm persuaded. Could the tag get moved to cover the specific spoiler content, or is it something so significant as to need to be in the lead? Phil Sandifer 02:38, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm afraid not. He starts as a minor dead side-character and then becomes the main antagonist, so his important contribution is his antagonist role. If it weren't for the plot twist, he probably wouldn't need an article at all. As such, the spoiler and related content permeate most of the article, and not mentioning it in the lead would detract from the quality significantly.

I believe the relevant English episodes air this December though, after which point we can ditch the warning entirely. Irritating length of time, I agree, especially since people who follow the 1st release, the Japanese manga, learned the spoiler back in 2005. However, since there are four different releases of the series, with each successive one being increasingly mainstream to the English audience, we have to wait all the way until the last, biggest, group of readers finds out before we can de-tag it.

On the plus side we don't have many instability problems, since by the time material hits the US airwaves we've had the articles hammered out for months if not years. --tjstrf talk 03:19, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the concise reasoning. I was kinda wondering why there was a template right smack at the top of the page, but your reasoning makes perfect sense. Happy editing, David Fuchs ^(talk) 19:09, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Just to clarify: we're waiting for the English anime to reveal his true motives before removing the spoiler tag, correct? I ask because the English manga has finally reached this point in the series, so American audiences don't have much of a reason to be surprised anymore. ~SnapperTo 20:00, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

So what episode are the English audience on? Because we REALLY have to make sure that Aizen reveals his true motives.--Hanaichi 02:15, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

No more than episode 45, I believe. Last I remember, Tosen imobilized Uryu with his zanpakuto, and that was on Adult Swim's Saturday night block (which is currently further than its weekday airing of Bleach). // DecaimientoPoético 02:22, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

The episode list (ignoring the fact that someone is probably guessing about airdates), suggests that the English anime won't reveal his true motives until December. I take your question as meaning the spoiler tag won't be removed until then? ~SnapperTo 03:26, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

But what is the point of it in the first place? People who come and visit this page generally read the spoilers - finding out what is going to happen next. But if you insist on leaving it there, then I suggest placing a spoiler warning in Gin Ichimaru and Kaname Tōsen's articles as well, since they are the "traitors" which have not been revealed as of yet. σмgнgσмg 10:56, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

I have replaced the {{spoiler}} by {{current fiction}} to make it clear that the warning is temporary. Kusma (talk) 12:07, 13 September 2007 (UTC)\

Cool, thanks. σмgнgσмg 12:10, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

It doesn't work that way. I have reverted it. Its not a current work of fiction. Its more like we are waiting for english dub ( nobody watches it, its too lame) to reveal that Aizen is a traitor. The work came out a long long time ago, and if you count manga, it came out already. --Hanaichi 12:15, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

But then, couldn't we get rid of the template completely? σмgнgσмg 12:39, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Like I said, we have to wait for the english dub.--Hanaichi 12:54, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

The warning here is basically the only spoiler warning that still exists in Wikipedia, as you can see here. Perhaps it is worth re-evaluating whether this page needs to be the only exception (note that I generally oppose spoiler warnings, and have just rewritten the spoiler guidelines to reflect that). General comments about the use of spoiler warnings are welcome at Wikipedia talk:Spoiler (but we have been discussing there for months and most suggestions have been made a couple of times already, so be sure to check out the archives). Kusma (talk) 12:58, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Just because its the ONLY spoiler warning doesn't mean we still ditch it. I think we have enough reasons, bluntly put, "the english audience knows him as only a murder vitim, not the antagonist". I too don't like it, but as soon as the biggest chunk of audience( english dub anime watches) have found out, most likely in December, we can get rid of it. --Hanaichi 13:17, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

The {{Current fiction}} tag is much more specific, more accurate and will alert the reader just as effectively. Also, the article is devoid of third-party sources and reads as a fan-piece in in-universe style. Guy (Help!) 16:27, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Actually I've independently come to the same conclusion as Guy above, so I've replaced the tag with {{Current fiction}}. Hopefully this will be satisfactory to all, because it does in my opinion get to the heart of the matter: that the subject matter is new and unlikely to be widely known. --Tony Sidaway 01:28, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

However, this isn't current fiction lol. This piece of work came out a year ago or so, maybe longer. --Hanaichi 12:23, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Looks to have been 2005. Though I still don't see why the tag is needed when the English manga has already revealed his true self. After all, there isn't a {{current fiction}} tag on Albus Dumbledore so that people who only watch the Harry Potter movies won't be spoiled about the fact that he dies. The same applies to Aizen and people who only watch the anime. ~SnapperTo 18:52, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Blindness

"The only way to avoid the effect is to not see Kyōka Suigetsu at the moment of its shikai release, making the blind Kaname Tōsen the only person in Soul Society completely immune to its effects." Surely Tōsen isn't the only blind person? Shouldn't it say "The only major character" or something? --The last sheikah 22:06, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Apparently, he IS the only blind person in SS. It's mentioned sommewhere, and he looks like he can see in the most recent flashback chapter. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Oreichalcos (talk • contribs) 20:08, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't think he can see. His eyes aren't covered, but they look fairly blind. Anyway, I thought he was blind since birth? Or do we have a source for that? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.48.43.190 (talk) 19:28, 8 June 2008 (UTC) Tōsen is blind. And, he's clearly not the only blind person in Soul Society, but the only one in Seireitei.