Talk:Discworld

Motifs

The motifs column in the novels table is getting silly, and is now starting to include every external reference to anything in the books! Since each book has its own article, I propose deleting this column and adding a paragraph somewhere outlining common motifs within the Discworld series. That is, not only does it no longer list just motifs, but its largely irrelevant to this article what the motifs of each individual book are. Stephenb (Talk) 09:54, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

I see what you mean, though it is actually really useful to have that information presented in one place. If people feel this section is getting unwieldy, perhaps it could go to Discworld (List of Works)? Tubusy 10:53, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

List of works is a great idea as it will keep the info but remove the huge table from the article. --Nate1481( ^t/_c) 11:27, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

I disagree Tubusy - it's not that useful, since the list no longer contains true motifs, and "that information" isn't really pertinent to this article. If there were a list of common motifs for Discworld, a paragraph should suffice and be useful to the article; non-common motifs ought to be in the individual book's articles, they're no use in this one. Don't like removing the table altogether, either, even to a separate article, though I know some people detest lists in articles. Stephenb (Talk) 11:58, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

This is the paragraph I would propose to add. I think it sums up most of the column in relation to Discworld, and would mean that the column could be removed in favour of adding the specific "motifs" and references to the articles for the individual books: Stephenb (Talk) 12:14, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Themes and motifs

The Discworld novels contain common themes and motifs that run through the series. Fantasy clichés are parodied in many novels, as are various sub-genres of fantasy, such as fairy tales, witch and vampire stories and so on. Analogies of real-world issues, such as religion, business and politics, are recurring themes, as are music genres such as opera or rock music. Parodies of non-Discworld stories also occur frequently, including Shakespeare, Beatrix Potter and several movies.

Totally in favour. Daibhid C (talk) 23:43, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Under these circumstances, there should be (as I proposed further down) a separate page explaining distinct references to (or parodies of) "real-world" events or works of fiction in particular novels, like the "Misérables" (novel and musical) parallels in "Night Watch". But I don't think e.g. every single mention of "the strange things that happened to the fish shop in Dagon Street" requires a cross-reference to the Cthulhu Mythos, since this is more of a running gag throughout the series. -- megA (talk) 15:56, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Do you mean a new article such as List of parodies and references in Discworld novels? Stephenb (Talk) 16:14, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes. It should still be by-novel, but with the connections explained. I think many (like me) think when reading: Oh, was that a reference to...? -- megA (talk) 20:23, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

GURPS Discworld

...has been nominated for deletion (or possibly merging) Stephenb (Talk) 13:51, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Vetinari

There's a suggestion in the article that there is a consensus in fandom that Vetinari represents Machiavelli. Does such a consensus really exist? I don't know much about fan consensus, and I've never attended any meeting of fans, but a comparison with Lorenzo de' Medici seems more credible. Increasingly so in light of the recent Moist von Lipwig stories. Anyway, I'm putting in a marker, as I don't know about the existence of a consensus.Cmsg 22:53, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

The consensus is that he's "Machiavellian", which isn't the same thing. As far as I'm aware the consensus on afp at least is that he's a version of Medici (as in the Veterinary -> Medic pun). Off the subject slightly, but there's an interesting theory just cropped up on afp that Cosmo Lavish (who wants to be Vetinari and fails) is the exact opposite of Cosmo de' Medici, with his sister as a similarly negative counterpoint to Cosmo's advisor Puccio Pucci. 81.145.240.97 01:10, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Links

I'm having a bit of a link blitz... should all novel titles included in this article be linked to their page, or only the first time they're mentioned? Sabrage 17:13, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

I'd say that the only place that the novels need to be linked from are in the List of novels, and then it's not needed to link from any others on the rest of the page.  Doktor  Wilhelm  17:33, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Questionable addition

A user has added It's a Wonderful Life to the list of motives in Reaper Man; since I don't remeber having watched the movie, I can't comment on its inclusion, but it probably needs a better justification than: "Windle Poons" spelled backwards is "George Bailey" (huh?). - Mike Rosoft 15:21, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

"A user" being me, allow me to elucidate: the protagonist of It's a Wonderful Life is one George Bailey, a man who at a critical juncture in his life attempts suicide by jumping off of a bridge, but is rescued by an angel. In Reaper Man, Windle Poons similarly at a very critical juncture in his life attempts to die by jumping off a bridge (but since the body of "water" being bridged is the Ankh river, does not need rescuing so much as extraction).

Bailey's unique opportunity after his suicide attempt is a chance to view what the world would have been like without his being born when he was; Poons gets to experience what the world is like now that he has not died when he should have. Both story lines end with the character back at the same bridge with a new perspective on their life/death, and each gets to have a nice sum-up with an angel—although Poons' correspondent is a very special angel—and subsequently move forward, happier and wiser, with his life, or afterlife, as the case may be.

Or more succinctly: "Windle Poons" spelled backwards is "George Bailey".--NapoliRoma 18:05, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

• Thanks. - Mike Rosoft 08:41, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Tolkien references in "Thud"?

Um, in what way are "Lord of the Rings" and "Silmarillion" included as motifs in "Thud"? Besides the usual parody elements present in every Discworld novel? -- megA (talk) 20:51, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Oh, the motifs section is completely out of control, and now includes every vague reference anyone thinks they've seen to anything. Wipe the whole thing, that's my advice. Daibhid C (talk) 23:42, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

I concur it needs trimming down because is full of original research.--Svetovid (talk) 02:06, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Maybe there should be a separate page for the references/parodies (not the motifs, since "the achievements of revolution (or the non-achievements)" or "fatherhood" seem rather trivial in books about revolutions or fathers) where every reference must be explained. As I remember it, in, eg, "Night Watch", all references seem valid, except the "Battle of Cable Street", which seems to me like "yet another street massacre connected with a protest march". -- megA (talk) 15:50, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

I had a go at it and removed general and trivial references.--Svetovid (talk) 15:58, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

I think the prune may have been to hard, e.g. Lawrence of Arabia, & the Kennedy assassination were both in Jingo reasonably prominently (especially the latter) and the references in Thief of time are far more to martial arts films pop culture than the actual arts. --Nate1481( ^t/_c) 16:57, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Also the references should be kept unless it is a prelude to removing the whole column. --Nate1481( ^t/_c) 17:01, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Lawrence of Arabia was just referenced by the ending I think. Motif is an idea used more often.--Svetovid (talk) 19:11, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

I think we need both: a "motifs" column and a separate page (as I suggested above) with the pop culture references by novel named and explained. -- megA (talk) 20:26, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

If anywhere, that belongs to the pages of the novels.--Svetovid (talk) 22:46, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but how do you distinguish between a reference and a motif? --megA (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 14:58, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

<-With difficulty. Carrot as Lawrence is the more tenuous of the two but the multiple shooters thing is a whole plot line. To be honest the reason I was worried about the references going is that they are the best way to distinguish or it's all original thought. Draw the line there, if a source mentions it a motif it's in, if not then leave it to the article on the book. --Nate1481( ^t/_c) 15:30, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

For example: Night Watch: Cop Novels, Les Misérables,[12] time travel, revolutions This is really tough. I'd say "cop novels" come with every Vimes book, so this is not significant to this particular novel, Les Miserables is clearly a reference and not a motif, and if you include it you should also include the Peterloo Street massacre, time travel is more a plot device than a motif (The novel that actually deals with time travel is Thief of time), whereas, paradoxically, the "grandfather paradox" is a vital problem in Night Watch, and revolutions, well I think you might call it a motif. Or maybe not. This is very complicated. And philosophical. And many of the novel pages don't actually deal systematically with references. -- megA (talk) 12:05, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Cop novels is redundant in my opinon, as it is a 'cop novel' in it's own right, just set on the disk. --Nate1481( ^t/_c) 10:29, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Happly Hogswatch

COWER BRIEF MORTALS... erm, I mean... HO HO HO! May the Hogfather bring you what you want for Hogswatch, and may the sun rise in the morning! Blueboar (talk) 14:48, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Featured Article

I've put down a call to arms on Terry's Talk page to make the Terry Pratchett article a Featured Article. This will be have to improved too, as it's a sub article - it should consequently become more likely to be seen as potentially FA too, if it gets good enough. Please post ideas for improvement. --Matt Lewis (talk) 01:15, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Update: I've put a list of sub articles on TP's talk page. There are currently about 40, 11 of them Discworld novels. All will need to be up to a reasonable standard - any help is appreciated. --Matt Lewis (talk) 13:54, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Reading Order?

What happened to the Reading Order page? I used this often and rather miss it.Adverge (talk) 23:41, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Yeah me too! What happened to the reading order page? User:redsilkroute|redsilkroute]] (talk) 7 May 2008 (UTC)

--61.17.70.18 (talk) 06:44, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Discworld reading order. It was deleted per the reasons there Stephenb (Talk) 06:54, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

I see why it was deleted, but for those of us unfamiliar with the books it would be helpful in the "storylines" section to have a list of the book titles for each storyline - maybe in publication order?

Strata?

I've never had anything to add to a Wikipedia page, but this seems like a big gap.

Shouldn't there be a mention of Pratchett's book, _Strata_? It was (kind of?) a Discworld parody of Larry Niven's _Ringworld_.

Here's a link on Amazon.

http://www.amazon.com/Strata-Terry-Pratchett/dp/0552133256

---Norm. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.167.216.11 (talk) 04:06, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, but Strata is not a Discworld novel - the Strata world is not Discworld. Stephenb (Talk) 08:08, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

auditors == bureaucrat?

Sure, at some locations you can find words from TP, saying that. But after reading about the discworld-science … they arte the counterpart to our magic: we’re thinking of magic things, we’re superstitious … sometimes. We like such things, such thoughts. We need ’em. Not allways, not everybody — but: ask Terry! We just think of it while our world is a matter of physics. Discworld is based on magic and the auditors are the dreams there. Dreams of a world without magic. So I think, somebody should have an eye on this. (Me? Sorry, that’s no good idea. I’ve to fight with this words as I’m not english.) -- 87.163.122.30 (talk) 04:32, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

After reading Thief of Time I always thought of the Auditors as the personification of entropy - it explains their hatred of "life", and their predisposition to think of everything in terms of averages (isn't entropy the ultimate average?) and unbending absolute rules. -- 76.199.0.102 (talk) 05:18, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Table color-coding

I noticed a recent edit added row color-coding to the novel table for the various character "groups". The greys are a bit difficult to distinguish from one another, and overall it makes the table a bit messy-looking to my eyes. Additionally, some novels cover multiple groups to varying degrees. Considering the problems, I feel it's better to remove the colors for now, until some consensus can be reached, as (for one) leaving it harms readability in my opinion. Any ideas? --Fru1tbat (talk) 17:06, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Removed Section on 'Society'

I removed the section on society since as it stood it only contained a bunch of references to pratchetian in-jokes, without any explanation of the point behind them. This was completely out of character with the rest of the 'themes' section and would have been confusing to anyone unless they'd already read the books. I may at some point recreate the section with more fitting content. NetHawk (talk) 17:25, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Recent changes

In the Rincewind section, I changed "the novel, The Last Hero" to "The Discworld fable" as this is how the books describe themselves. I also added information on The Folklore of The Discworld. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.80.240.66 (talk) 01:11, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't think "fable" is really appropriate for the article. Regardless of how the books describe themselves, they're novels, and using a different (and non-standard) term will only confuse readers. I've changed it back to "novel". --Fru1tbat (talk) 16:58, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Discrepancy of History-Monks-Likeness

Here the article says "Taoism-like", in the article that is behind the Lu-Tze-link, it says "Buddhism-like". Which now is it. Being an expert in none of the two religions, I'd still say Buddhism-like since Lu-Tze is pictured in orange ropes on the cover of Nightwatch.

It could be both. The saffron-colored robes are a nod to Buddhism, but Lu-Tze is an obvious reference to Lao Tse, upon whose teachings Taoism is based.
Heck you could even throw in Confucianism in there and just state that it is inspired by Oriental Religions. Gr8moldy (talk) 21:21, 23 December 2008 (UTC)