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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 94.99.58.164 (talk) at 09:10, 6 January 2009 (→‎2008–2009 Israeli invasion of Gaza). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

This page is for the move debate only, for all other issues use Talk:2008–2009_Israel–Gaza_conflict

Requested move

2008–2009 Israel–Gaza conflict → Multiple options — Lets discuss in an organized fashion. — Cerejota (talk) 05:30, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Tone

This discussion appears to be getting rather heated. Please remember WP:EQ when posting. Couchcommander (talk) 06:15, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.

Add your own proposals if you do not like the current ones using the same format.

Proposals

As of January 5th at 12:36am UTC, 7 out of 9 users supported the name "Operation Cast Lead" and 4 out of 7 users opposed the current name. I think it is fair to say that it needs to be seriously considered at this point that "Operation Cast Lead" be the new name of the article. Please continue to state your proposals. Coreywalters06 (talk) 00:38, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
This conclusion lacks any methodology, and is another manifestation of the serious rewinding-function illness that some users are suffering from. The count of users dedicating themselves to the support of a doctrine of thought is unsignificant as long as there is a good deal of worthy criticism against it that is not (in any way!) refuted. No consensus can at all be reached in this environment of mediocre communication! People just repeat what they just said over and over again with no addition or further argumentation, and no ability whatsoever to know whether someone has refuted their argument or as how to systematically refute others' argument. This title has a very clear and a very well laid out neutrality problem. How do you respond to this? (briefly and convincingly please, and don't tell me like one other guy said that Israel "itself" named it such).
Now at least we understand why some people repeat the same thing again and again. Brevity is the key, and saying the same thing a thausand times doesn't make it sound more conceptually compelling. Working that way is not correct, you do not literally "plan" results and then dedicate yourself to enforcing them while flooding the discussion page like this. Ideas will have to interact, and the final results must benefit from this interaction of ideas. Amongst all the titles laid down below -regardless of the count of the "dedicated supporters", the only one that qualifies at this time for not having any standing, serious complaints is the "Israeli Offensive in Gaza" title. However, I would like that users work more on criticizing it so that we may be assured of its appropriateness (By either explaining why the current defense is not valid or by providing further solid criticism, not by repeating the same things over and over). Orwa diraneyya (talk) 07:58, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
2008-2009 Israel-Gaza conflict

Currrent name is fine. (If it's fine, why are we debating the name?)

  • Oppose - The situation has escalated with the ground incursion and the name is to vague. I always held it as a temporary placeholder and one of the conditions has changed.--Cerejota (talk) 05:41, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Support - Even though the ground invasion by the Israeli forces is currently underway, Hamas is still launching rockets at many Israeli cities the past few days. The title should remain as it. Even I read CNN was labeling this conflict as Crisis in the Middle East, which I think is too vague. --Roman888 (talk) 21:17, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
    • How the "Hamas is still launching rockets at many Israeli cities" related to your argument here? Is this for example, related to the "It involves two parts so it's a conflict" and "As said, it involves two parts so it's a conflict" argument? That is, is it that some feel that getting any closer to declaring the notion of an attack gives incomplete (aka unfair) picture? If that is the case, then I would honestly argue that this is not true, and wholly subjective (a dislike rather than an opposition that is ought to be considered). An "invasion", "airstrike" or "attack" are all merely descriptive (describing the form of an act), and contain no indication whatsoever to the "intent" or the "motive" of the attacker. Hence, there are no perceivable grounds for your opposition. Moreover, someone cannot in the same time invade, attack or bomb while opposing the most ordinary way of describing his acts, this is both unacceptable and misleading. Long story made short, until a "global name" of this historical event is fabricated, a descriptive title is the only way to go, and for a descriptive title of this sort not to have any indication of the very nature of the event is absurd, and totally not understood (while assuming that people are trying to make a point). Avoiding this objective and necessary indication is inconsistent if the wording was appropriate, but I doubt it. I doubt that the phrasing is what creating the problem here. People here will have to be honest, objective, and consistent (for example, not once saying that "it involves two sides so it's a conflict" and once bouncing back to that "this is its name! Israel named it such", which are two arguments that follow totally different premises -different constitutions of mind as to whether hamas participates in the making of the event or not). Orwa diraneyya (talk) 19:48, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Support-It involves two side so it is a conflict.--Tomtom9041 (talk) 16:06, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Support - As User:Tomtom9041 said, it involves two sides, so it is a conflict. And while there is battling between the two sides, it isn't a War because War would traditionally be fought by 2 countries/states. It might be "a war on Hamas" from Israeli POV, but objectively looking at the issue, it's definitely a conflict between the two sides. -Nomæd (Boris A.) (user, talk, contribs) 17:20, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
    • In the world POV, it's an "Israeli Offensive in Gaza" that is motivated and is the result of a running conflict between Israel and Hamas. This conflict isn't new and had many manifestations, amongst them are the long-running rockets. Hence, we may have an article on the rockets (we already have!) and another article on that offensive in Gaza. In the world POV the first manifestation of the conflict is "rockets launched on southern Israel" and the second manifestation is an "offensive in Gaza", things are simple, and the argument is, with all my respect, invalid. The rockets in the incident of this event plays the role of the "(advertised) motive" of the attack rather than an "alternative point of view". Orwa diraneyya (talk) 20:22, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Oppose - Not only is the current title very long, but it is also seems to be an understatement. Hamas has pledged a fight to the death and Israel has called for "all out war" against Hamas. It is not appropriate to call it the Israel-Gaza war because Israel has not declared war against Gaza; they have declared war against Hamas. This is not a conflict, its a huge military operation and a war. I think that Operation Cast Lead is much more appropriate as it is what Israel itself has called this operation and is much more commonly used in media. You don't see people on CNN saying "And now, more breaking news on the 2008-2009 Israel-Gaza conflict. Coreywalters06 (talk) 21:51, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
    • It's indeed underestimating what is going on. However the problem with the IDF operation name title is that it isn't neutral since it's the name given by one of the two "conflicting" parties to the event. That is, Israel "itself" calling it something doesn't mean that this has become "the" name of this historic event. People collectivley will reach consensus on the name later after the attack is finished. This problem with the IDF operation name title is inherent and cannot be fixed. Hence, we have for the time being to resort to a descriptive title, which is the current context of the conflict word. I think that this word underestimates as well as obscures the very nature of the event. 94.99.58.164 (talk) 05:17, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Oppose It was never the right title for what is happening, this is not an "escalation" this is an air, sea and ground attack of unprecedented ferocity. RomaC (talk) 23:03, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Oppose for now at a later date we could consider using this title, but at the moment I recommend we refer to it as "Operation Cast Lead", which is (IMO) the most neutral and unambiguous description we can use.
  • Support most neutral name.VR talk 02:11, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Support - Only neutral name suggested so far. --Omrim (talk) 02:44, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Oppose The word conflict is meant to emphasize a state of disagreement that is more predominent that its sparse manifesting events. This article is not about the conflict between any two parties or any two organizations. It's about one specific, massive military manifestation of one long-running conflict. Any descriptive title resorted to at this time for the lack of a common name approved by the press (a neutral name, not an operational name given by one of the two conflicting parties), will have to indicate this very nature of the event, that being of an attack. Refusing to have this basic, fair and objective indication is questionable. 94.99.58.164 (talk) 04:43, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Oppose Imposes an artificial symmetry between the victims and the aggressors. To call a slaughter a "conflict" is grossly misleading. NonZionist (talk) 09:28, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Oppose - 1. As we all have read an seen, this not a simple debate and just simple 1 or 2 per daye bombings to call it conflict! Palestinian death toll passes 500 as Israeli army moves on Gaza City [1] so it's a real invasion to a homes, home towns and not a country or even armed city. so we face a complicated situation. we have the act of "invasion", on the other hand, Gazza is not country or even an armed city. so 10 years later, when People look at history, deah tolls and what's happening now, can't name it a conflict. 2. Israel had 2 gaol by attacking Gazza, First az it's said by its officials, It's against Hamas and a war to the bitter end. Second, they are attacking and killing civilians on Gazza and they want to capture Gazza.Morosoph00 (talk) 17:02, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Oppose - This isn't the name of the conflict, but a description. Saepe Fidelis (talk) 16:58, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
    • This was necessitated by the lack of a common name approved by all parties, and is the very reason why we can't take the "Operation Cast Lead" or the "Black Saturday Massacre" as neutral, equally-approved names. Until such a name is available, someone will have to resort to such a discription. The issue now however is coming with a word or phrase that is more definitive, reasonably accurate and less misleading that this "conflict" word. What do you think? Do you think that this article is about the long-running conflict between Hamas and Israel in Gaza or do you think that it's about one military manifestation of such conflict? Orwa diraneyya (talk) 19:55, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Strongly Support - It is neutral, and there is no problem with it. "Conflict" as a word can be used for any issue ranging from politic issues to wars; Note: that replacing "issue" with conflict in the previous statement would make it much better, right ? One last pharaoh (talk) 17:45, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
    • Yes but the question is why, why not to state the obvious? You must at least be able to say in brief why you avoid a whole class of descriptions. That is, you wouldn've elaborated on the applicability of this general word while there are many other objective and more definitive words to pick without a reason. Don't convince me that there is no single word that expresses the factual side of what we need without judging the attack morally, is the English language that limited? Orwa diraneyya (talk) 20:10, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Support Neutral title, should satisfy both sides. --Hillock65 (talk) 19:09, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
    • You misunderstood, this is no voting, saying that it should satifsy both sides will not make it satisfy both sides, people have to reply to others' arguments, not repeat themselves and repeat others. Please do not take it as a rude reply, I am a nice person in actuality, but I keep on seeing this flooding behaviour and I realize how it lessens the efficiency of this discussion and prevents it from reaching consensus in the supposed way. Orwa diraneyya (talk) 20:10, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
2008-2009 Israel-Gaza War

Sources do use this in their headlines, and it has significantly jumped in use since the ground invasion started.

  • Oppose for now - Are we really in a rush to change the name? "2008–2009 Israel–Gaza conflict" is a descriptive title and not the proper name of an event. But Israel-Gaza War is a name. So it seems inappropriate to unilaterally label this the Israel-Gaza War on Wikipedia until a significant number of published sources start calling it that. 72.66.67.46 (talk) 06:39, 4 January 2009 (UTC)


  • Oppose - I agree with the above argument, Gaza in itself wields no sovereign power, and despite what it will be called 10 years from now, at present it is prudent to abide by logical and well founded definitions of a "state". --Nerd.cubed (talk) 21:12, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Oppose for now - until both fighting parties start calling it that way.--Omrim (talk) 13:48, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

  • Oppose -The Israeli parliament, the Kenesset did not formally declare war against Hamas run Gaza territory, it was labeled a military operation, with Hamas firing back the best description would be an armed conflict between Israel and Hamas in Gaza. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.12.187.241 (talk) 00:14, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Oppose The labeling of a military conflict as a "war" is a politically-charged issue in Israel, as seen in the debate in that country over whether to call the 2006 Lebanon War a "war" or not. This conflict has not been officially designated a war, and nor is it correct to speak of a "war" against Gaza. Gaza is a territory, not a political entity or armed group. Calling it the Israel-Hamas war would be no better because other armed Palestinian groups are involved apart from Hamas. Using the name of the Israeli military operation avoids these problems. -- Noung (talk) 00:31, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
Let me see if I understand this right: you oppose "War" because it is politically sensitive to the Israeli public. However, you support an option that is politically sensitive for the Palestinian public. Did I sum it up correctly? I will wait for your answer. --Cerejota (talk) 07:54, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
No. The key issue is not offending Israeli sensibilities, it is a point of fact. Operation Cast Lead is the name of the operation. That is a fact. Palestinians cannot deny that they are the subject of a military operation called Operation Cast Lead. It might offend their sensibilities, but that does not matter. Calling it a war is factually inaccurate and does not even have the benefit of being the official, factual name. I include the point about Israeli naming of wars merely to support the point that it is not called that, not because of sensibilities. Their sensibilities are as irrelevant as those of the Palestinians; what is relevant is that the history books will know this event as Operation Cast Lead. -- Noung (talk) 08:16, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
2008-2009 Gaza Offensive/Israeli Offensive in Gaza

Perhaps this is the solution.

  • It is non POV
  • It is being increasingly used by news reports eg. 'Israel continues its offensive'

Jandrews23jandrews23 (talk) 12:11, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

  • Support It's descriptive (originally factual I modified it), objective, and reflecting more upon the very nature of the event. Israel did attack Gaza in an attempt to destroy Hamas. 94.99.58.164 (talk) 12:58, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Oppose - one sided. Israel didn't woke-up one shiny day and decided to attack. Such title depicts Israel as the aggressor here - an issue which is highly controversial. Even the EU presidency called it a "defensive" action. --Omrim (talk) 13:46, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
    • Counter-argument: Apparently this is what you feel upon reading the proposed title, but that is not necessarily what it means. This is a factual description, i.e., it has nothing to do with whether the offensive (the aggressive attack) is justified or not. It's an attack, and it's admittedly aggressive (250 people killed in the first day). What this title tells about Israel is that it's the initiator. Note that it can still be the "good guy" while being the one to "take the offensive". It's not one-sided, it's a neutral, objective title that is not as "high-level" or as vague as the conflict title (conflict must refer to a continuous state of disagreement that is more predominent than its sparse manifestation events, rather than one massive military manifestation of a long-running conflict). 94.99.58.164 (talk) 14:30, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
      • Does that mean we have to change the Yom Kippur War to "Arab forces assault to Israel", and the six days war to "Israeli assault on arab air fields"? Also, this "assault" has a name (operation cast lead), this is also very factual - why not use its real name? Why not call it "asaullt on Gaza in response to rockets attacks"? (also factual). Bottom line: "conflict" also depicts facts, but without resorting to POV.--Omrim (talk) 15:47, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
        • You can't refute a good argument in an article only by bringing examples of other articles that seem not to conform to the stated criterion. The Wikipedia is so free that it isn't even restricted by its own content (for reasons other than consistency and notation, which still can't stand in front of a good argument). Hence, please stop citing meaningless examples... If you have a point then state your point directly. I didn't say it was an "assault", since the word assault most often has some implication with regard to the morality of the act (moral correctness). Offensive only means "aggressive attack" (when used as a noun), which is how it's very different, it's only descriptive. Saying that "Operation Cast Iron" is factual (aka discriptive) is absurd... I do not understand how you didn't see that. 94.99.58.164 (talk) 04:18, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Oppose - one sided and thus POV. NoCal100 (talk) 15:35, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Oppose - What people feel it means is what it means. If you get a different vibe from it than someone else, it isn't a good title because it's not neutral enough. A truly neutral title would give every reader the same feeling. Whether such titles actually exist I have no idea, but we should still strive for it. The discussion here indicates that different people are getting different vibes from the title. Kari Hazzard (T | C) 15:40, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Oppose - Agree to "What people feel it means is what it means." If you get a different vibe from it than someone else, it isn't a good title because it's not neutral--Tomtom9041 (talk) 16:25, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
    • The only requirements in a nominated decriptive title is that it be accurate and do not judge the attacks morally (be neutral) which is why the word offensive was used. The word offensive, as a noun, which is derived from the following meaning of the adjective: "(a) aggressive, attacking. (b) (of a weapon) meant for use in attack", means one of the following: (1) An attack, an aggressive campaign or stroke (2) aggressive or forceful action in persuit of a cause. With all my respect, these feeling-oriented complaints aren't of any value. Saying that the word is not descriptive enough and that it involves judging the attacks can always be verified. 94.99.58.164 (talk) 05:28, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Oppose - very one sided. okedem (talk) 17:36, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
    • Please stop echoing each other's argument. Repeating an argument a thausand times doesn't make it sound more conceptually impressive. Plus, if someone had to refute this he will have to do it only once, so why repeat and repeat and repeat... 94.99.58.164 (talk) 04:18, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Support - The attacks are one sided. The Allied Forces didn't "wake up one day" and decide to bomb Dresden, but nonetheless the article is called "Bombing of Dresden," because that's what happened. We can't frame this how we want to we have to reflect reality. RomaC (talk) 23:00, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Oppose per POV concerns, also it's a bit too long. Master&Expert (Talk) 00:02, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
    • In your world this counts as ... "argument"?? Plus, I am quite embarrassed to note this out, but the "/" is used to separate two distinct proposed titles, that is, not the whole line is the title. Given that this is clear, how can the "2008-2009 Offensive on Gaza" be "too long"? Especially that the 2008-2009 part is expected to be replaced with a better temporal qualification when the attack is finished? 94.99.58.164 (talk) 05:39, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
That's your Anti-Israeli POV, not anything neutral (and considering your username, I don't need to explain anything further). -Nomæd (Boris A.) (user, talk, contribs) 10:12, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
    • I agree on that it's not a good idea, at all, to have such a username while working in the context of encyclopedic edits, where someone is generally supposed to distant his editorial decisions from any unproven beliefs that he may believe in. Plus, it makes it much more difficult for the others to believe that you will ever be fair to them. That is, I would like to know why is this title better than the other ones in your opinion, saying only that it's more accurate doesn't add much, honestly, and replicates the behaviour of the other guys who are echoing each other's arguments over and over without adding much. Thanks. Orwa diraneyya (talk) 10:54, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
Would it be better if I cloaked my opinions behind some misleading username, e.g., "IsraelFan" or "WikiLover"? Better to be honest and up-front. Clarification: Zionism is an ideology, not a country. I do not subscribe to this ideology -- that is what the "NON-" prefix means. I am, essentially, anti-Fascist. Does that disqualify me from participation here? It would, if this were Germany in the 1930s. Fortunately, we have not regressed to that level yet.
The "offensive" or "assault" title is accurate, because that is just what it is. There is no parity between the occupier and the occupied, and no parity between a nuclear-armed regional superpower and people armed with makeshift rockets. If we can't see that, then our objectivity is so far in doubt that we are not qualified to write a cookbook, much less an encyclopedia page. Put ideology aside and open your eyes to the obvious! NonZionist (talk) 20:31, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Oppose - Non neutral, very one sided. Israel is not assaulting Gaza or its people, but in a military operation against terror attacks from Gaza, against Hamas organization and all the terrorizing factions, as a defensive maneuver of a democratic state against an military organization. -Nomæd (Boris A.) (user, talk, contribs) 10:12, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
    • Whatever, in either case, it's attacking the whole Gaza strip while trying to do such, that is, while trying to defend herself, and to destroy Hamas and the rockets. Defense here is the (advertised) motive, that is, you can't use it to define or describe the act. This motive is very well stated along with the operation information at the very beginning of the article, whereas the motive of Hamas is not as clear. I think of no way to describe this incident that will not contain the notion of an attack. Refusing this super-fair indication is again, very questionable. I don't understand why would someone commit into something while believing in it and then supress heavily like this the most-ordinary and objective expression of it. Orwa diraneyya (talk) 10:54, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
      • actually, there has not been a single instance of carpet bombing. unless you have reliable sources to support the claim of all out attack against the entire territory, please refrain from wild accusations. regards --84.109.19.88 (talk) 14:25, 5 January 2009 (UTC)


I don't really agree that Offensive is a non-neutral word. I think a lot of Israelis would be happy with that as a description of the operation. OFfensive is simply a military description. I'm sure I've even seen situations where armies have described their operation as an offensive. From Wikipedia Offensive: An Offensive is a military operation that seeks through aggressive projection of armed force to...gain an objective or achieve some larger strategic, operational or tactical goal.Jandrews23jandrews23 (talk) 14:43, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

  • Oppose - I we're going to refer to this as the Israeli offensive, shouldn't we use the name given to it by Israel? Saepe Fidelis (talk) 17:00, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
    • This has been refuted, the subject of the article is the historical event, which is both conceptually distinct and of a broader scope than the IDF military operation. Naming the historical event after the military operation is not neutral since there are a number of parties that participate in the making of this event other than Israel, including (but not restricted to) Hamas. Orwa diraneyya (talk) 20:52, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
Why should we use the name given to it by Israel? Military codenames are typically chosen for reasons including propaganda value, morale boosting of domestic troops and population (eg. I'm sure the Iraq war article isn't titled "Operation Enduring Freedom"). As such Operation Cast Lead would be a non-neutral title. "2009 Israeli New Year offensive in Gaza" will probably be the shorthand most historians will use.--Chikamatsu (talk) 00:13, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
2008-2009 Israel-Hamas conflict
  • The "Israel-Gaza" is a POV title because it implies that Hamas' claim that this operation is against the people of Gaza (or Gaza itself...) is true. The operation was started as (and still is) an offensive against Hamas, and (almost) all sources agree on that. Actually I support "Operation Cast Lead" but it seems that it's too controversial, so I suggest this as a temporary fix. PluniAlmoni (talk) 18:49, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
    • From what I know Hamas is active in Hebron, yet there's no war in Hebron, so this wouldn't be very accurate.VR talk 20:08, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
      • True, Hamas is also present in the West Bank. That doesn't mean that there isn't a conflict between Hamas and Israel - a conflict (and even a war) may happen even only in a single front. PluniAlmoni (talk) 20:19, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
And Israeli-Hamas conflict is the one-sided POV that the Israeli offensive is against Hamas and not against Gaza, most sources I have seen describe it as an Israel-Gaza conflict. Nableezy (talk) 20:30, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
Which antisemetic "sources" have you been reading?(Raphmam (talk) 04:26, 6 January 2009 (UTC))
This is a hard topic, but the Prime Minister of Israel has said that they are targeting Gaza's government, Hamas, not the people of Gaza. So if by Gaza you mean the government, thats fine. If by Gaza you mean the people, thats different. People say POV this, POV that...I say that the casualty rates show that this is not an attack on the Gazan people, but rather on the Government. If it were an attack on the people we would see much less discretion on Israel's part and there would be many more civilians dead. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Coreywalters06 (talk • contribs) 01:11, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Support The terms Israel and Hamas both denote organizations of people whereas the term Gaza refers to a place. A place, being an inanimate object, cannot be involved in a conflict as that would require it have some form of sentience. "Israel-Gaza conflict" is not proper English, long story short, regardless of its frequency of use. Couchcommander (talk) 22:13, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Question: Isn't the Islamic Jihad, a group distinct from Hamas, also involved in the conflict?VR talk 23:02, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Oppose As VR points out, Hamas is not the only group involved in the conflict on the Palestinian side; indeed, once Israeli forces enter Gaza we have no way of knowing the organizational affiliation of those firing on them. This problem can be avoided by using the name of the military operation, as below. -- Noung (talk) 23:05, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Oppose POV, the attacks are against Gaza, not against a political party. This is framing for a particular POV, when already we know that perhaps half the Palestinian dead are civilians. RomaC (talk) 23:09, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
By saying that the attacks are against Gaza you certainly show your POV. The facts however go to show that it is against the Government, Hamas, not against Gaza. The Israeli Prime Minister has made it very clear that their goal is to obliterate the Hamas terrorist group. If Israel was targeting civilians, we would not see the discretion of Israel's rocket targets and civilian casualties would be much higher. Also, Israel dropped leaflets to warn civilians to leave. So how can you say that they are targeting them? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Coreywalters06 (talk • contribs) 04:37, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
Of course I have a POV, but I edit to make Wiki articles that are NPOV. I think some editors are confusing NPOV with an ideal of "balance," especially when I see comments like "it makes Israel look bad/aggressive." Facts are facts, this is an assault by a military superpower against one of the most densely populated areas on earth. And whether we like it or not, Hamas is the elected government of that area. RomaC (talk) 01:35, 6 January 2009 (UTC)C
Like you say, you clearly have a POV but the problem is you are having trouble seperating your POV from facts. Yous stated that this is an assault even tough according to most facts it is a military retaliation against a terrorist organization known as Hamas and coming straight from your words "And whether we like it or not". Yes- Hamas is a terrorist organization viewed by the majority of the world as so and that is FACT.(Raphmam (talk) 04:24, 6 January 2009 (UTC))
  • Oppose pr Noung above. Master&Expert (Talk) 00:01, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Oppose Is this article about the long-running state of disagreement between Hamas and Israel? At least for the length of time of the Gaza blockade (eighteen months)? No. Rather, it's about one massive military manifestation, or one major consequence of this conflict. Refusing to state the very nature of the event (that of an attack) is questionable. 94.99.58.164 (talk) 04:58, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Oppose Imposes an artificial symmetry between the victims and the aggressors. To call a slaughter a "conflict" is grossly misleading. Gaza has no ability to make war. NonZionist (talk) 09:28, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Oppose - Only a description of the conflict, not the conflict's actual name. Though I prefer it to the current title. Saepe Fidelis (talk) 17:01, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Oppose - Agree with Noung above.One last pharaoh (talk) 17:27, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
  • oppose - This article is referring to a current situation which may change over time, and maybe in time there will be more conflicts between Israel and Hamas, thus this name can become inaccurate. It is also misleading because even though Israel is (allegedly) declaring war agains Hamas, civilians are obviously being involved, the conflict is not as simple as Israel vs Hamas Maxipuchi (talk) 00:04, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Strongly Support because it is clear that the conflict has nothing do to do with Gaza as either of the opponents. Israel and many countries have clearly stated numerous times that they are fighting a war (or conflict) against Hamas- a terrorist organization. Israel has done as much in its power to minimize civilian Gazan deaths. Gaza only happens to be the location or setting in which this conflict is occurring. The conflict could be taking place in the Sahara dessert and it would still be between Israel and Hamas, the belligerents. A conflict is defined by the two (or more) sides- NOT by the location in which it is occurring. (Raphmam (talk) 04:16, 6 January 2009 (UTC))
Operation Cast Lead

Major events like this take place among the background of constant conflict between groups in Gaza and Israel, but the notable aspect here is the major Israeli military operation. In my opinion the article ought to be named Operation Cast Lead and their ought to be a separate article Israel-Gaza conflict to which articles like this are subsidiary and which contextualize them more fully. Naming it after the Israeli military operation is not POV, it merely represents the fact that this was the most significant event - it was, after all, what precipitated the creation of this article. Operation Cast Lead is also by far the most widely-used term in the media to describe the event, and is its official name. Naming the article 2008-2009 Israel-Gaza conflict makes it sound like the article is going to be a description of the entire conflict in the period 2008 - 2009, which presumably it is not. That belongs elsewhere. -- Noung (talk) 16:41, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Please read WP:MILMOS#CODENAME. That the editors at Operation Hot Winter disregard that guideline means they have a problem, it doesn't mean we should emulate their ignoring the guideline. Thanks!--Cerejota (talk) 02:52, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Support - For reasons above. It is also much easier to say and understand. "2008-2009 Israel-Gaza conflict" is way too long. Also, this is not a conflict between Gaza and Israel. It is a conflict between Hamas and Israel. Israel's objectives are to take as few civilian lives as possible and destroy Hamas. Some may even argue that this operation was started by Israel and therefore, anything else that happens as a direct result is a counter-attack to Israel's "Operation Cast Lead". That is why I think we should use this title. Coreywalters06 (talk) 21:57, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
Please read WP:MILMOS#CODENAME. It addresses all your points, speaking against them.--Cerejota (talk) 02:55, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Support - As noted above. As a side note, the Israeli operation is clearly against Hamas and not Gaza, otherwise we'd see 500K casualties rather than just 500 (Mostly Hamas affiliated). Still, The operation is supposedly against Hamas but there are other "resistance" (read: martyrdom seeking) groups like Palestinian Islamic Jihad - so the best title would be 'Cast Lead' as it avoids the entire Arab claim that the attack is on the civilians and the Israeli claim that they are doing their best to focus on Hamas alone. JaakobouChalk Talk 22:11, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
    • So you admit to clearly WP:POVFORKing? You support the name change because "it avoids the entire Arab claim that the attack is on the civilians and the Israeli claim that they are doing their best to focus on Hamas alone". That you feel so emboldened as to make such a transparent attack against neutrality is sad commentary on the state of WP:NPOV in Wikipedia today.--Cerejota (talk) 02:55, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Support I now agree this is the most accurate title that's possible given the complicated nature of this affair.Jandrews23jandrews23 (talk) 22:14, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
Please read WP:MILMOS#CODENAME. There is no reason we cannot find in the RS/V some other title, In fact, I proposed one that is mentioned more that the Operation name, which is "War". Thanks!--Cerejota (talk) 02:56, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Oppose Still not what most media are calling it, also using the name used by one side is POV-pushing. RomaC (talk) 23:06, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
    • I disagree that using the name of the military operation is POV-pushing. Whatever your opinion on the situation, no-one can deny that the IDF has launched a military operation called Operation Cast Lead. That is a fact. We enter the realm of opinion as soon as we try to assign a different name to this series of events because we then have to justify this name in some way, and this justification involves our opinions; using the given name of the operation is as NPOV as can be. Especially if the background and contextual events are fleshed out elsewhere. -- Noung (talk) 23:11, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
      • Yes, that its why Operation Cast Lead redirects to this article and should continue to do so. It happened, it continues to happen, no one denies it. However, it is one side of the conflict: this operation is against someone, isn't it? So you are saying we should *ignore* the peopel against whom this operation is, and provided an inherently biased view, based on the fact that one side started it. That makes no sense whatsoever. And since the media is giving it much more names than the operation name, which they have overwhelmingly ignored, we have other options that recognize the fact of the Operation Cast Lead, you are basically calling for a WP:POVFORK. Thanks!--Cerejota (talk) 02:08, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
    • Yes I understand that however Wikipedia has clear precedents for using what most RS are calling an event rather than what one involved party is calling it. RomaC (talk) 23:27, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
      • But this is not just calling it what one involved party is calling it, it is referring to a historical fact. The IDF launching Operation Cast Lead is now historical fact, and no-one on either side can deny that the IDF launched an operation called Cast Lead. It happened, and it precipitated the creation of this Wikipedia article, of which it is the main subject. And for this reason it seems to be the firmest basis for an article name, to me. -- Noung (talk) 00:39, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
    • Actually, Noung, I am now leaning to the creation of a whole new article called "Operation Cast Lead" which will actually focus on the specific attacks. As it is, the largest Israeli assault on Gaza in decades, which has been top page news for over a week, does not have a Wiki entry. The current article is a synthesis and blatantly original research. RomaC (talk) 03:02, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
    • Little re-orientation You started by saying that "Israel launched an operation called Cast Lead in Gaza", and that this is a historical fact, which is true, then you jumped, implicitly and mistakingly, into the conclusion that this should be name of the historical event brought by this Israeli military operation, in which a number parties are involved. This is incorrect, the notion of the historical event is conceptually distinct than that of a military operation. Arguing however that this is plausible (naming the historical event after the operation), because it's the main cause that started the whole thing, is clearly one sided. This refutes your argument. Orwa diraneyya (talk) 04:28, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Support The description of this as a two-way conflict has been far too problematic without an article titled "Operation Cast Lead". We can make this a sub-article of the larger Israeli-Gaza conflict, and move some of the background into the parent article. I have already explained in previous discussions why I don't think this particular name is "point-of-view", but I will add that the name of the operation ("Cast Lead") is vague enough to not be problematic (i.e. not something like "Operation Kill Terrorists"). -- tariqabjotu 23:50, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Support per Tatiq above, though I'm not sure if I would support or oppose making "Operation Cast Lead" into a sub-article. Master&Expert (Talk) 00:00, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
    We already have a parent article Gaza–Israel conflict. -- tariqabjotu 00:13, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
    Oh, I thought you were referring to making this into two different articles - one for the airstrike, one for the invasion. Master&Expert (Talk) 01:40, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Oppose -POV. Operation Cast Lead is a term used by one side of the conflict which is Israel, The other side which is Hamas, Palestinian administration (PNA) and the Arab world calls it "Israel agression" both are POV and thus not neutral terms. The best term is conflict.
    • Disagree as above. -- Noung (talk) 00:39, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
    • Also Disagree. Of course they're going to call it aggression. The best term is what Israel has called it. There is no "point of view" about it. It is what it is. Its absolutely asinine to say otherwise. Operation Cast Lead IS the operation. I don't understand what is so "POV" about it. If the United States launched an operation called "The Manhattan Project" you wouldn't argue about the point of view. The Project IS the Manhattan Project. Its not that complicated.Coreywalters06 (talk) 00:46, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
      • INVALID EXAMPLE ALARM: Manhattan Project was not a military Operation, but a scientific one. A more relevant example would be Invasion of Grenada, for which the Operation code-name Operation Urgent Fury is a redirect. If you read that article, you will see that teh reason for the naming is not even neutrality, its RS/V issues.
      • This is not for us to discuss Also, be advised that in fact WP:MILMOS#CODENAME counsels against naming articles for the Operation name of one side of a given situation, unless Historians commonly use it, precisely because it has the effect of potentially causing the article to focus on that side's point of view to the detriment of the other.
      • Lastly, calling people asinine is not exactlly civil behavior. Please reafrain from doing so. Thanks!--Cerejota (talk) 02:30, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
I believe that your personal opinions are interfering with your judgment. I never called anyone asinine. I simply said that it was asinine to think in such a way. You need to learn to differentiate between the two. Thanks! Coreywalters06 (talk) 04:24, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
Oh, hai, sophism is asinine. BTW, what are my "personal opinions"? --Cerejota (talk) 04:39, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
Cerejota, I'm done arguing with you. You think you're all high and mighty and the best. You're a stubborn, ignorant fool. And in computer terms that you might understand, your opinions are "read-only"; no one could possibly try to use logic or ethics to change your mind. Thanks! Coreywalters06 (talk) 05:07, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
        • I request the above statement be deleted for it is in violation of Wikipedia civility polict-thanks
I am always willing to talk and be convinced. Just not by people who call my ideas "asinine" out of the blue. --Cerejota (talk) 05:40, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
      • From your statement above "The best term is what Israel has called it" this is exactly what POV is, Isreali POV. Also Manhattan project has no resemblance to this issue neither in nature nor in this context.
  • Strong oppose - If we are going to wipe our asses with the WP:NPOV policy and impose systemic bias, might as well call it Black Saturday massacre, which is the Palestinian name for it. Israel called it something, the Palestinians call it something else, and the media has given us plenty of options. To continue to insist on this name is to continue to impose a point of view over the other. Period. I can't believe the blatant disregard for one side of the conflict I am seeing: regardless of what side you take in your personal opinions, we must write a neutral encyclopedia. Thanks!--Cerejota (talk) 02:02, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
    • Wiping our asses with NPOV? Sorry, I didn't realize you were the arbiter of what's neutral. If you can be realistic for a moment, certainly you can see how "Black Saturday massacre" is far more sensationalist than "Operation Cast Lead". Your repeated hints that this has something to do with the political opinions of certain editors is unfortunate and unproductive. We tried the WP:MILMOS suggestion of describing the where and when of the conflict; it's not working. As I said earlier, MILMOS appears to be written with the assumption that it will be applied to locations where conflicts don't this frequently and indiscreetly. That's only the case here if we talk about the Gaza-Israel conflict since 2005 (which, as you can see, uses the location formula). But, when we start to get more specific, we get titles like the current one, that just don't make sense; from the title alone, someone who is familiar with the ongoing operation may have no idea its referring to this particular operation rather than the longstanding Gaza-Israel conflict. Changing "conflict" to "war" just isn't going to fix that. -- tariqabjotu 03:49, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
      • I agree the "masacre" name is more melodramatic, but my opinion is irrelevant. If Hamas wants to be more melodramatic than the IDF, their problem. Am nto about to start giving them PR tips. What is relevant is that it is one of the names of the conflict, given by one side of the conflict.
      • I am not an arbiter, its common sense: There are two sides, Side A, and Side B. Ok? Side A calls the conflict "X". Side B calls it conflict "Y". The media in general calls it N, M, P, Q, and to lesser level X and even less Y. Neutrality and non-bias eliminate X and Y as possible titles, but we still have N, M, P, and Q to choose from. Your position is like advocating calling the conflict X, which would take the side of Side A, wittingly or unwittingly.
      • I haven't questioned people's motivation except when they make them an issue themselves y their comments (for example, Jaakobou, up here). I hate soapboxing. With a passion. From wathever side. If I wanted to discuss these topics in depth, I would go to a blog somewhere. But I want to write an encyclopedia, call me crazy.
      • As to trying MILMOS, I disagree we have tried hard enough, there are many alternatives that reliable sources provide and we either don't accept them or insist on the codename. We want to sacrifice neutrality in the altar of shortness. And while you do have a reasonable point on the assumptions of the MILMOS people why don't we ask them? Perhaps they have a solution? That said, if someone unfamiliar with the conflict, doesn't know this article includes Operation Cast Lead when reading the first sentence of the lede (regardless of title, well, they deserve to go back to school, and I am putting it midly (are you serious? This is by far the weakest argument I have heard supporting the operation name, and you tend to be solid.) If they know the operation name, if you google search this article is the first hit for it, even before the IDF's own website. That is a thriumph, because while the IDF's website will never be neutral, this article has to be neutral.--Cerejota (talk) 05:36, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
        I said someone familiar with the topic, not unfamiliar with the topic. The title does not describe what the article is about, and even if someone knowledgeable about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and what has been happening in Gaza were to visit an article with this title, they might be surprised by what they're reading about. The title does not match the content.
        There are a variety of things that go into the name of an article, and neutrality is only one of them (especially if the argument for bias is as weak as it is here). That why we get names like the Yom Kippur War. Perhaps this is less than ideal, but until the world decides on a more polished name, I think this is best we can do. I'm not going to explain again and again why I don't believe "Operation Cast Lead" is biased, but your statement that it is so, as if that is self-evident, is off the mark. -- tariqabjotu 06:31, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
        • I do not simply asserted it, I explained it using an abstract example (ie Side A v Side B). I know what you have argued in the concrete, but what is wrong with my logic, in the abstract? I am really illogical? I do agree we shouldn't be repeating ourselves, but these arguments will continue to resurface, so it is inevitable. The title does not match the content. on that, we agree absolutely. In particular including 2008 (just four days!). However, I can live with it, specially with the redirects, until the world decides on a more polished name. Which, if my crystal ball is right, they will any time soon. --Cerejota (talk) 07:36, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
          • [Please defend here] The weaknesses of the current title should not be brought in support of one specific title, while naming it the "only way" to get over an obstacle. Having said that, I ask Mr. Tariq to defend his argument in front of Cerejora. Tariq frequently noted that he explained somewhere else why this title is not "one sided", that is, that it doesn't convey a single point of view, however I failed to find something that really answers that, Cerejota on the other hand provided a very simple, and a solid argument regarding this. Can you Tariq please defend your argument here, even if you will have to repeat something you said? (It's not really correct that we are only repeating ourselves, some are responding to others with meaningful arguments whereas others are just repeating what they or others just said). Orwa diraneyya (talk) 04:54, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
          • there is a fallacy in your argument.

1. the article IS about the operation. you disregard that simple fact.
2. the Y name is a reaction, while the X name is the original tag. that does not necesitate neutrality, but in current context it does reflect the actual content of the article.
X is just a tag. as such it is neutral. Y is not a tag, it is POV reaction to what tag X simbolizes. regards - --84.109.19.88 (talk) 14:15, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

          • There are fallacies in your argument against his original fallacy, but only one fallacy I will discuss because the other is based on it: The article is NOT about the military operation, people here other than me has also made this clear distinction between a historical event and a military operation, a historical event has a number of involved parties that participate in its making, whereas the notion of "parties" is irrelevant to a military operation, an operation only has "targets" (hello "one sided"! -why I say is this is that because assumedly we have "two sides so it's a conflict"). Regards! Orwa diraneyya (talk) 05:11, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
        • I would also like to add, on the issue of precedent, that numerous other military operations launched by the IDF in Gaza, the West Bank, and Lebanon use military codenames because it is the easiest way to differentiate the article's precise content from the many other articles about the conflicts involved. Are we going to rename Operation Days of Penitence "September 2004 assault on Gaza? And Operation Hot Winter to "February 2008 assault on Gaza"? And will Operation Autumn Clouds be renamed November 2006 assault on Gaza? And what about Operation Accountability and Operation Grapes of Wrath in Lebanon? There again, the articles concern single campaigns in long conflicts, and wisely use the military codename to differentiate them from the conflict as a whole. Otherwise we will end up with a tangled, confused mess of articles. As for why this is not "NPOV", I do not think there is much more that can be said. I do not see how this is a problem if we include the background and more detailed information on developments on the Palestinian side prior to the operation in a separate article, and I am not inclined to simply adhere to WP:MILMOS#CODENAME where there are so many examples of it being violated fruitfully elsewhere. -- Noung (talk) 06:44, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
          • So because those articles disregarded rules, we should do it too? To a certain extent, this is the best argument (ie, organization - I am always up for it!), however, those where relatively minor events (maybe Grapes of Wrath wasn't, but it was truly unilateral, and with no ground component to speak of). This here is a major event (and water gets us wet! ;). This is 2006 Lebanon War (aka Operation Just Reward) level history. Or 2006 Israel-Gaza conflict (aka Operation Summer Rains) level. Not routine mop-ups like the others, but game changing stuff. The confussion issue is much lower in a historical context. And of course, I just shown you two equally fruitful examples of respect for policy, that directly apply here. BTW, as to your suggestions, don't give people ideas. :D --Cerejota (talk) 07:36, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
            • I would also support the farming out of 2006 Israel-Gaza conflict to Operation Summer Rains and Operation Autumn Clouds (for some reason the latter exists as a separate article and the former does not) so long as there is a separate article on developments over the year as a whole, so we will just have to agree to disagree here. I maintain that the way we are going, we are going to end up with a load of similarly and ambiguously-named articles called something like "2008/09 assault on Gaza" when there are perfectly good names that differentiate them more heavily, which seems the most important factor to me. Whatever happens we need to avoid the ambiguity evident in the title 2006 Israel-Gaza conflict, which is actually an article about Summer Rains and Autumn Clouds (and mainly Summer Rains), not the Israel-Gaza conflict in 2006 as a whole. -- Noung (talk) 07:56, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
            • Also, I posted this Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Military_history#2008-2009_Israel-Gaza_conflict.--Cerejota (talk) 07:36, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
            • when the rules do not apply, there should be room for change of rules. I have not seen a particularly strong argument why this particular rule in the current context is advancing NPOV more than codename tag. I have seen many good arguments why no other title is appropriate. most noticebly - the content of the article, which presumebly the title should reflect. regards --84.109.19.88 (talk) 14:15, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
              • The article is not only about the Operation Cast Lead. The events described by this article began with the Operation, and the Operation is par tof this article. But you have repeated the mistaken impression that this is about the operation only. This not supported by the sheer volume of the RS/V narrative, which sees, for example, Hama's escalation of the rocket attacks as a distinct, descrete parte of the same conflict.
              • This is why I argue this title is a POVFORK: it is essentially re-purposing the article to
              • Lastly, I sugegst you guys see the evry interesting discussion the MILHIST guys are having around this, who to a single person have said the Operation Name is really not advisable, pretty much for the same reasons I have argued. ANd yes, many of them, military history freaks, want to rename things like "Operation Barbarrossa" or "Operation Overlord" and others. I was suprised both by the overwhleming response, and the unanimous nature of their voice. I expected some debate. Apparently it turns out, they have been having these debates for years, over articles less politically significant, and have slowly come to realize why naming articles for Operation Code names makes no sense when writting a neutral encyclopedia. Basically for the reasons stated in WP:MILMOS#CODENAME. Right now, seeing the arguments, all I have is the sudden feeling to stick beans up my nose. --Cerejota (talk) 04:10, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Oppose - that would mean that this article is about Israeli attacks, and not preceding Palestinian rocket fire. I don't think we can look at the article from only the perspective of the Israeli military operations only, which is what "Operation Cast Lead" implies.VR talk 02:14, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Oppose - I admit that when I'm looking for this article I type "Operation Cast Lead" into the address bar of my browser, but that's mainly because it's easier to remember than the current title. I don't think "Operation Cast Lead" satisfies NPOV, though and do not think it should be the actual title of this article. Kari Hazzard (T | C) 03:05, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Support per Noung, and it just creates too much confusion when we need to draw a line between articles like 2006 Israel–Gaza conflict, 2007–2008 Israel–Gaza conflict, and 2008 Israel–Gaza conflict (which is likely to be merged) and the more general Gaza–Israel conflict. This article describes what Israel finally does to stop Hamas from attacking it, within all this conflict. Tim Q. Wells (talk) 03:19, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
    • This article describes what Israel finally does to stop Hamas from attacking it This action is niether the first nor the last in the series of actions Israel has taken and will take in the future, so it doesn't qualify as final, also it is not known at this point if it will stop Hamas or not. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.12.187.241 (talk) 05:08, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
      • I never said it was either the first or last, and did not mean that Operation Cast Lead is the absolute final thing Israel will ever do to stop attacks from Hamas. Whether or not it is certain that it will stop Hamas has nothing to do with what I said. Tim Q. Wells (talk) 05:32, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
      • For some reason someone has to repeat this with every breath, even with no one denying it around them. It looks to me as if they on the very inside don't believe it, which is why they need to defend it in front of themselves every 30 seconds. Otherwise why would it make anyone feel bad if we called the event an "attack"? it can still be a good thing! but for some reason it makes them feel bad. I say, this is their problem to have felt bad, the article isn't about them at the end. Moreover, the ones arguing in favour of the Cast Iron title are exactly the same ones whose top favourite complaint is "one sided" and "very one sided", which is very inconsistent, actually, because this is one main, inherent problem with this title. 94.99.58.164 (talk) 05:49, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
        • "Cast Lead". Whatever the main argument is (one sided, etc.) I think that any other title is not accurate enough and does not represent the article sufficiently. PluniAlmoni (talk) 07:15, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
          • This proves that you are, with all my respect, unqualified for participating in the discussion, to have planned a target and not know how to refute the argument of others. Saying that "whatever your argument is, I don't care, what only I know is that this is the best way to go" doesn't stand, and is totally unacceptable. You will have to resolve this neutrality issue and then elaborate on the benefits of such title. Thanks. Orwa diraneyya (talk) 07:57, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
However, if "assault" and "offensive" are ruled out as "politically incorrect", then this would be my third choice. It puts the responsibility squarely on Israel's shoulders, which is just where it belongs. This is Israel's baby, from start to grisly finish, so let's tie an Israeli name to it. NonZionist (talk) 21:02, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Oppose - NPOV. It is the name of an Israel military operation. It might have worked if it were Day One. By now, few reputable international news agencies refer to it by this name. I just checked BBC News, and it said "Middle East crisis" and "Gaza violence". For CNN, it's "Gaza Crisis". Al Jazeera calls it "War in Gaza". Fox News/Sky News doesn't refer to the conflict as Cast Lead, either. - Mailer Diablo 11:15, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Strongly Oppose Basic neutrality issue should be resolved first, mentioned by Cerejota above, then any side benefits of the title can be enumerated (assumedly to support it). Here is another, more comprehensive treatment of this "neutrality issue":
  • The article here is about the historical event created in the region by this military operation, rather than about the military operation itself, which is why the humanitarian situation in Gaza is covered, the effects of the continuing blockade at its time, and the reactions of the whole world. Moreover, if other parties were involved in the future in this event, hypothetically fighting next to Hamas for example, then their intrusion will also be covered comprehensively in this article, as they now have become a part in the making of this historical event. Now the question of whether the historical event should be named after the military operation leading into its initiation is bound to the whole world, and not to the Israeli party, which is only in control of its operation but is not in control of the historical event created by it. I think that one reason of why this distinction MAY not so clear in this case is due to the fact that here, an army is launching a massive military operation on a bunch of amateurs, making it look like one sided, allowing someone (on the unconcscious level) to think of this initiating party as the one MAKING this historical event, alone, hence aiding the propagation of this ambiguity. However, Hamas is still thought of as a considerable existence that can alone justify the launhing of this massive operation, which is contradictory, treating Hamas once as not participating in the making of this historical event and once as justifying the whole military operation. What this implies is that both parties are equally participating in the making of this historical event and an article dedicated to this event cannot be named after the the military operation of one of the involved parties. Note that the fact that Israel initiated the whole thing doesn't play any role here. You can't at one time complain about indicating this initiation aspect because it assumedly makes Israel look "like if it were the aggressor", and then unconsciously use this fact to assume that she is alone making this historical event, and hence it can name it, alone. Orwa diraneyya (talk) 13:32, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Support - This is the name of the operation. All the other proposals I've seen are just descriptions. Saepe Fidelis (talk) 17:03, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Strongly Oppose - The article includes the actions of both sides, besides the Hamas killing of the Egyptian Border guard officer. The current name: "2008-2009 Israeli-Gaza conflict" is neutral, and not indicating a specific part of the conflict, yet covering the whole subject of the article which is the conflict itself.
    • Not neutral: because it uses the name of the conflict for only one side.
    • Incomplete: because it indicates the Israeli operation, and not all the actions.
    • Just move on and forget about renaming the article, it really does not need to. One last pharaoh (talk) 17:22, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Oppose This title is non-neutral. This conflict is way more than an israeli operation. --Hillock65 (talk) 19:11, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Oppose as per Hillcock65 above. --Chikamatsu (talk) 20:25, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Support: if we dont move the "2008-2009" page to the name of the operation, we should rename, among others: Operation Opera (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Opera), Operation Orchard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Orchard), Operation Barbarossa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Barbarossa), how should we name then Operation Wrath of God (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Wrath_of_God)?, and Operation Entebbe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Entebbe)? what about Operation Wooden Leg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Wooden_Leg)? Keep reading, theres more to come: Operation defensive shield (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Defensive_Shield), how should we rename that? What about Operation Rainbow (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Rainbow)?, what about Operation Days of Penitence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Days_of_Penitence)? And Operation warm winter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Warm_Winter)?

I see coherence naming the offesnives of the IDF under the english translataion of their hebrew names... To those who oppose naming it Cast Lead, well: how should be all those pages be named, then? (Dont make fun about barbarossa being an IDF offesnive, should we also change "operation overlord"?) Gumuhua (talk) 23:11, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Please this discussion here Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Military_history#2008-2009_Israel-Gaza_conflict. I won't repeat myself as similar points have been raised before. I will mention that if the naming of a given event for the name one side gave to it is not transparent biases, then we need to all sit down and define bias as a word. :D --Cerejota (talk) 04:14, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
Very meaningful. I also suggest that we try to define what "too complicated", "too long", "too one sided" and "makes Israel look like if she were ..." sorts of arguments actually mean, and look into their validity in the contexts in which they seem to be used. Orwa diraneyya (talk) 05:44, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Bringing examples of other articles that do not conform to the criterion that your opponent is offering is hardly making any point, and is hardly saying anything about he validity of what you say. Wikipedia is so free that it isn't even obligated to conform to its own content, and believe me, you don't want us to chime in there and start arguing about the basic validity of this naming policy (given that the articles there were not about the military operations themselves but rather like here, about the historical event laid by them, in which a number of parties were involved). If you can use these titles to make a point, then please do so, otherwise this shall not convince anyone. Orwa diraneyya (talk) 05:37, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
Winter 2008/9 Israeli Assault on Gaza

More Google news hits for "Gaza assault" than "Gaza conflict." "Assault" is a more specific term therefore more encyclopedic.

  • Support Winter 2008/9 is the time; Gaza the place; and air, sea and ground attacks are what has happened. RomaC (talk) 22:55, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Oppose as not quite NPOV. Master&Expert (Talk) 23:57, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
    • Believe it or not, the world point of view now is that Israel is involved in a wide assault on Gaza, can you believe that? (By the way, hundreds of civilians are dead already, so unfortunate you missed the party) Orwa diraneyya (talk) 21:41, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Oppose The word Assault makes Israel sound like the aggressor (POV). Also, the Israeli attacks are targeted towards Hamas, not Gaza.
    • 80 kids were murdered, and hundreds of civilians killed, unintentionlly. The Gazans are now as involved in the "attacks" as Hamas is, with or without their will. I am wondering however if we may say that Hamas is responsible of killing these, because at the end you know, Israel is not the aggressor here. Orwa diraneyya (talk) 21:35, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Oppose This phrase is one sided (POV) there are two parties to the conflict 1) Israel Defence Force, IDF and state of Israel 2) Hamas and Palestinian militants any phrase should mention both sides. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.12.187.241 (talk) 02:45, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Oppose Not only one-sided, but not really supproted by RS/Vs. If we are going to be one sided, lets get Operation Cast Lead over this any time. Thanks!--Cerejota (talk) 04:37, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Oppose per NPOV concerns. We're also assuming here that the conflict will only last the duration of the winter. While a lot of people would like that to be the case, and there is historical basis for Israeli operations only lasting a month or so, I think writing that assumption into the title is shortsighted. Kari Hazzard (T | C) 04:46, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
    • Kari, I think you can "support" with a condition that the word "winter" is dropped. Maybe "winter" is not necessary, I thought it would specify the time, as the current title could imply a two-year period. RomaC (talk) 01:23, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Strongly Support as I said before, Gazza is not an armed city o even a country and they didn't declare war. Israel attacked Gazza by air and ground forces and now start invasion in the city.Morosoph00 (talk) 17:15, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Opposing only a word - it is simple, neutral and clear. If only it was "2008/9 Israeli Assault on Gaza", i would have agreed. One last pharaoh (talk) 19:48, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
    • Pharaoh, If that's all I would hope you could "support" with a condition that the "winter" is dropped. Maybe "winter" is not necessary, I thought it would specify the time, as the current title could imply a two-year period. RomaC (talk) 01:23, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Support I have been indulging others' sensibility so much (let's say blindness), having said that "assault" may might and could give the indication of judging the act morally. I feel responsible today to say that I no longer think this is true. If some people think that such title makes "Israel look bad" then that is their problem, we can do no more than let every entity be defined by its own actions. It is an assault; whole civilian families are getting killed at once, with hundreds of civilians killed so far and slightly less than a hundred child murdered. If Israel thinks it had to do this, and was brave enough to say it and to accept the consequences, then be as brave and stop denying the obvious. Orwa diraneyya (talk) 21:29, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
    • Orwa, thanks for the well-reasoned opinion I think we can get editors to see this if we remain calm and present the facts. I also agree that arguments such as "it makes Israel look aggressive" or not balanced" should possibly be challenged, as opinions and even numbers of editors should not trump Wiki policy. This is an assault by a military superpower, most RS use "assault" or "attack" we have to respect that instead of framing the event selectively so as not to offend some editors. RomaC (talk) 01:23, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
2008-2009 Israeli bombardment of Gaza

Just throwing this out there, because some of the other Wikipedias appear to have used something equivalent to this. No opinion on it at this point (except that the year disambiguation is a pain in the butt). -- tariqabjotu 13:11, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Well since it has now included a ground-invasion, I don't think we can do this.VR talk 14:57, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
2008–2009 Israeli invasion of Gaza

I reckon «2008–2009 Israeli invasion of Gaza» is a good article name which should cover most aspects. --Eivind (t) 00:43, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Discussion

Any additional comments:
Why does conflict start with a non-capital c, while war starts with a capital W? JVent (talk) 06:13, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
Usually, "War" is a given name, while "conflict is a mere description. Thanks!--Cerejota (talk) 06:25, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Please read WP:MILMOS#CODENAME - the much more experienced editors at WikiProject Military History have some interesting things to say around using operation names. I offer we should listen to their experience, which transcends the A-I and I-P conflict.

On forking-

There is a difference between a WP:POVFORK and a WP:SUMMARY fork. Please read it. Be careful because what you might be suggesting might be against policy. Thanks!--Cerejota (talk) 03:01, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Okay. We get it. You don't need to keep linking to arbitrary guidelines and policies. -- tariqabjotu 04:08, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
Why are they arbitrary? They are central to this discussion, this article being part of the Military History project and all. What we can't do is arbitrarily ignore them, and push them aside because our opinion doesn't match them. --Cerejota (talk) 04:21, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
And yet you're allowed to push our viewpoints aside? I understand the Wikipedia Guidelines. But thats what they are. GUIDELINES. Guidelines don't always apply and I think that at many times such as this, they are okay to be broken. Stop acting like a Wiki-Nazi and let everyone share their opinions without being slammed with 20 guidelines and policies. You clearly have your own opinions as well and they are greatly interfering with your discernment during this time. Why did you ask us to share our thoughts on other titles when you have shut every single one down? Once again, I know your profile says that you "act like an administrator even though I'm really not". Well its really starting to tick people off, so unless you're going to be fair and stop letting your opinions interfere with what you say, stop telling us to do so as well. Coreywalters06 (talk) 04:51, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
Godwin's Law *yawn* --Cerejota (talk) 09:53, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
Googletubes test

Search for allintitle:"Operation Cast Lead" - 28 hits, with 20 uniques and 8 of them repeats or variations mostly from rightsidenews.com (which is a right-wing blog).

Search for allintitle:"Gaza War" 136 hits, with only 44 uniques and 92 repeats or variations, including partisan sources such as the Die Jüdische

Doesn't prove anything, but it is interesting that even after more than a week, the "Operation Cast Lead" name doesn't seems to catch on with the RS. I really do not understand the arguments for using this name, over policy, over RS/V, and over common sense.--Cerejota (talk) 04:31, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Search for allintitle:"Gaza Assault" 1,491 hits. Again, I strongly suggest we respect Wiki policy and call this what the great majority of RS are calling it. RomaC (talk) 05:12, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

    • I really don't think this proves anything. The media are calling it the "Gaza assault" because it is an assault on Gaza; that is a shorthand term which they can use at the moment because everyone knows what they are referring to because the event is happening right now. But we are an online encyclopedia, not a news organization. Future generations are not going to talk about "the 2008/09 assault on Gaza", they are going to talk about "Operation Cast Lead". Are we going to rename Operation Days of Penitence "September 2004 assault on Gaza? And Operation Hot Winter to "February 2008 assault on Gaza"? And will Operation Autumn Clouds be renamed November 2006 assault on Gaza? And what about Operation Accountability and Operation Grapes of Wrath in Lebanon? There again, the articles concern single campaigns in long conflicts, and wisely use the military codename to differentiate them from the conflict as a whole. Otherwise we will end up with a tangled, confused mess in the name of "objectivity", when in fact we are avoiding the use of the only truly "objective" name available. -- Noung (talk) 06:37, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
      • Ok, since we are crystal balling, let offer you that the people in the future will refer to it the way the most people refer to it now, which is how the media is calling it. In Israel, it will be called Cast Lead. But in Palestine it will be called a "massacre". Outside, where people really give very little thought to this it will be called whatever the media calls. And this goes exactly into the lopsided WP:BIAS stuff I speak about all the time: on what authority do you think that people are going to call it "Operation Cast Lead" and not the "Great Gaza Massacre" (I am not suggesting the name, nor do I agree with it)? Seriously man, it is transparently taking a POV other than a NPOV.
      • I mean, we both pulled out our crystal balls (ouch!) and came out with different results. The funny thing is, we we don't have a deadline and the reality is NEXT TO NO ONE today is calling it by the operation name. Even "gaza conflict" gets a higher googletube score. If in the future that happens, then we changed it THEN. But crystal balling is a futile excercise when faced with overwhelming evidence in the NOW.
      • Interesting point tho calling it the "Gaza assault" because it is an assault on Gaza; that is a shorthand term which they can use at the moment because everyone knows what they are referring to because the event is happening right now. So why don't we slap in a year, and there we have our identifier? I mean, you think our readers are really so dumb that when reading the first few lines they won't know what this is about? I am sorry, but I respect our readers more than that: I assume them to be minimally intelligent. --Cerejota (talk) 08:55, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
        • I do not think our readers are dumb and I can't see how you can draw this inference from what I have said. Let me state my point differently: imagine you are a student studying this event in the future. All the history books are going to call it Operation Cast Lead. All the military analyses published will call it that. It is, irrevocably, the official name of the Israeli military action. It is the only name possible which could not ever refer to any other event than the one we are writing about. There can be dozens of "Gaza conflicts" and there could be dozens of "Gaza massacres" but there can only, ever, be one Operation Cast Lead. Sure the media call it "Gaza conflict" now. I'm sure they called Operation Barbarossa something like "the war between Germany and the Soviet Union" at the time and they called the American Civil War "the American conflict" at the time. This is hardly the point. -- Noung (talk) 09:02, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
        • I understood the point the first time around. I got it. Thing is, 1) How are you so sure all the history books are going to call it Operation Cast Lead? Specially if the only people calling it right now is the IDF? 2) There can only be one "conflict" that spanned 2008 into 2009 in Gaza. Or for that matter, there only was one 2006 Lebanon War. The title is not ambigous to the point of crisis, to the point that a fairly smart, but ignorant of the topic, cannot quickly place themselves. That hypothetical, crystal balled (poor thing!), student of the future, s/he will have no trouble finding this. Furthermore, there are nav boxes that connect the articles, categories that allow their listing. Furthermore, this being a wiki and all, if by the time the historic books have a name for this, we haven't change the article's name, then we suck. I mean, this is a wiki, right? --Cerejota (talk) 10:04, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
          • But it is not true that "There can only be one "conflict" that spanned 2008 into 2009 in Gaza". Does that mean this article is going to be about everything else that happens between Israel and armed Palestinian groups in 2008 and 2009? Or is it going to be about Operation Lead Cast? Because right now it is about the latter. There have been numerous "conflicts" and even "invasions" into Gaza by the IDF in 2008 and there will be more in 2009. This isn't about them. This is about Operation Lead Cast. Furthermore, one thing we can be sure of is that the name Operation Lead Cast will remain relevant to our future student, because that is the event's name. It will always be a valid name for the event. It is the only title at our disposal with this advantage. -- Noung (talk) 10:09, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
            • In response to your first objection (regarding the years), I will repeat a comment I made on a previous discussion: No, no, it doesn't mean that at all. It means there was an event that transcended 2008 and 2009. Much in the same way the [previous title] did not mean the event happened throughout most of December 2008. Or that 2004 Indian Ocean earthquake indicates that the event happened throughout most of 2004. Or that Cretaceous–Tertiary extinction event suggests the extinction occurred throughout most of the Cretaceous and Tertiary periods (which encompass 144 million years)... -- tariqabjotu 14:25, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

This event is an assault. I have nothing against putting it into context, that is the strength of Wiki, hyperlinks to other articles lead to fuller understanding. I'm sure many of us have spent much time floating off on Wikitangents and discovering new things. Anyway, the events of Dec 27 - present are an assault/attack on Gaza by the IDF. The matter of precipitating events should and will be dealt with, but RS/V overwhelmingly describe what has happened as an attack/assault. A few editors' votes in a talk page cannot trump Wiki policies. RomaC (talk) 04:50, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

On POV

arbitrary break for length All names are POV. This is impossible to avoid. Someone will always be able to devise a way to see a word or phrase -- "offensive", "Operation Cast Lead", "bombardment", "conflict" -- as biased. Or maybe it's biased that one side is doing most of the work. Or maybe it's biased because Hamas is shooting rockets too. Or maybe it's biased because it says Hamas, instead of Gaza (or vise versa). This is really just a waste of time; we'll always get a quorum of editors who find bias. -- tariqabjotu 14:42, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

But not really. "conflict" is neutral, the problem has been that it is "non-descript" or "just merely descriptive". BTW most of the MILHIST guys seem to like "conflict", and some want to rename even Operation Barbarossa to something else (wait until they get their dirty hands on Grapes of Wrath)!
But we have an out: since everything is biased, then nothing is biased, to paraphrase the old philosophical rant. Hence, all titles being equal in the non-neutrality, the next thing in the checklist is RS/V and what they tell us, with a stress on the V. So what we do with that?--Cerejota (talk) 18:32, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
File:Pears-Soap-barbox.jpg
Among the things that Wikipedia isn't, there is the soapbox. So do like the soap in the picture, and get out of the soap box. Besides, is better when you are neekid™.
The term "conflict" imposes symmetry on an assymetrical situation. It is dishonest, because it erases the divide between aggressor and the victim. Would you call a "rape" a "conflict" between the woman and the man? There is no parity between occupier and occupied, no equivalence between a nuclear-armed regional superpower and people armed with makeshift rockets. If you think aggression is not an issue or not relevant, then the people who presided over the Nuremberg Trials would beg to differ with you.
The use of the title of John Steinbeck's great novel to name a sordid military operation is obscene -- but no less obscene than the use of a children's toy to name a slaughter in which many children are killed. Truly diabolical! NonZionist (talk) 20:53, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
There is such a thing as DEGREE of bias: Some things are more biased than others, unless you think there is no difference between saying "Hitler was a devil" and "Hitler was a saint". We don't have an equivalence of bias: We have an equivalence of pressure from partisan camps and self-blinded ideologues.
As I wrote to Tundrabuggy yesterday (archived), we are trying to create a product that is acceptable to two radically incompatible philosophies. At the same time, we are supposed to pretend that these ideologies do not exist -- that we're all just friends. And we're not supposed to dialogue about the ISSUES and reach POLITICAL consensus. So the only possible result is a lowest common denominator -- i.e., ZERO. Because we do not DIALOGUE and develop an understanding of one another, the only thing left is to annihilate (cancel) one another. After days of effort, we end up with mushy platitudes that are of no help to anybody. NonZionist (talk) 20:53, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

I fully empathize with the positions you express. However, I then ask you to reconsider your participation in Wikipedia. When we joined, we all agreed to abide by certain five fundamentals, the Five Pillars of Wikipedia. These fundamentals tell us, in terms of content, that we must be neutral. Neutrality, in practice, means in most cases precisely to write in ways that imposes symmetry on an assymetrical situation.

Now, the truth of the matter might be that a colonialist European effort on the part of Ashkenazi Jews that both uprooted the Palestinian Arabs (including Palestinian Jews) and created the State of Israel, and that this State has been engaged, since its founding, in the active displacement, and cultural genocide - to the point of denying the existence of the historic and present Palestinian other -, and has engaged in wars of aggression and expansion on behalf of its allies, principally US imperialism. All of this might be true. Equally truthful is that the European Jewry, not attached to the land for centuries, in the middle of the European re-definition of the Nation-State in the 19th Century, recognized that the way to survive as a People was to return to their ancestral land, and that the petty-crime of displacement of a people who could as well go an live in Jordan with out much ado was a small price to pay to stop the total annihilation of the Jewish people. They are fighting for their survival, and regretable excess will happen, but like a drowning person who scratches the skin of the lifeguard, it is all worth the survival of the Jewish people, as a Nation among Nations.(I think Benny Morris actually argues a variation of this). This all might be true...


But, we are guided by a principle that expressly calls upon us not to tell the truth. The truth is irrelevant. What is relevant is what the reliable sources verify. If the reliable sources do not agree on an overwhelming narrative, then we most neutrally present the different narratives, with due weight considerations.

One of the reasons I support WikiProject Bias is because it closes a loophole on this policy: by ignoring reliable sources in other languages (ie Arabic) and cultural contexts (for example, English speaking media in South Asia or media with no professional internet presence but that is nevertheless reliable) this verifiability can become compromised. I find it all the time in AfDs around Latin American articles: it infuriates me that we are full of useless Poke-cruft, but a well known, influential, yet minor Poet gets deleted "because notability cannot be established via reliable sources".

In the case of this article, this is illustrated in the fact that the dominant media source in Gaza was bombed out of existence, hence, we are robbed of the reliable voice of one side of the conflict. This is what I call bias, which is different from neutrality: bias is claiming AL-Jazeera is not a RS, simply because it is from a different cultural context. Or that the PNN is not reliable because it is partisan and then wanting to use tje equally Partisan RightSideNews because it comes up in Google News. Or saying Jerusalem Post is not reliable because it is in Israel.

The reason I address your position, rather than the content, is because I feel your interventions are not productive: you insist on a reality that is not verifiable by any RS (and offer no sources), your edits are not productive, and you are filibustering productive dialog in order to eliminate one perspective. You are bordering on the disruptive. That said, you are a smart, thinking person. You can surely understand that the place to make your narrative dominant is not Wikipedia: it is on the streets, on the blogs, and maybe even by going to Gaza yourself. But here? It is futile.

We are a bunch of geeks stuck to our computers, who pretty much already got our opinions on this matter already figured out: you are either preaching to the choir or trolling Zionists. Both are things better done somewhere else. Here, we are writing an encyclopedia. Or at least trying to. As I have said before, I do not expect neutral editors, I expect a neutral article. Common sense tells us this can be better achieved by keeping out of the soapbox, and sticking to the content. Even if once in a while a rant (like this one) is warranted. Good day. --Cerejota (talk) 01:54, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Dude stop projecting please. There are many other editors who have very different backgrounds and bring very different qualities to the Wiki project. That's why Wiki has policies, if we follow them things generally work out. RomaC (talk) 04:50, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
  1. ^ http://ww4report.com/node/6625
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