Talk:Progressive metal

Alright Then,

What ever happened to the Tech Metal and Math Metal pages? There is a huge difference between bands like Psycroptic and Opeth then Dillinger Escape Plan and Behold .... The Arctopus. Now whenever I search for "Technical Metal" or anything of the sort, I'm lead here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.195.5.177 (talk) 03:46, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Therion

I'd like to ask, WHY are Therion listed under important artists for prog metal ? I hardly see how they fit into this genre in anyway. If no one disagrees with me I will be removing them.

Because they playing in prog vein. Listen to all albums from the Symphony Masses, Ho Drakon, Ho Megas, there's a pseudo-classicaly complexly technical riffs, hammond organ keyboards and even syncopated/polyrythmic drum-work. There's also many SOURCEs, that were cited Therion as progressive metal: meaning they probably should be added. And i probably believe, that many, many metalheads here disagree with you.

Cultural Origins & Tool

I submit that we include "Great Britain" in the cultural origins box to the right of the article, since King's X and other American pioneer prog metal bands cite Yes, King Crimson, the Beatles, and other Brit bands as major influences. Besides, Yes and King Crimson were heavy at times (and for the times) in their own right (Hello? KC's RED album? Yes's DRAMA?).

Secondly, I really think that Tool needs to be excluded from the "list" of artists. I know I'll catch flak for this, but there seems to be some disagreement on where Tool fits. I propose nu-metal. Tool has all the criteria:

1. Syncopated drum track with heavy open chord guitar crunch in between downbeats of most measures (see most of Aenema)
2. Lyrics usually centering around youthful frustration or focusing on shock value alone ("Stinkfist"...?)
3. I don't know who Tool cite as their influences. Can anybody help there?

Finally, I wonder if Mastodon should or shouldn't be included in the list. I actually feel they are more accurate and deserving than Tool. Let's kick around this idea and see what we come up with...--Mikepope 03:05, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, the statement about "lyrics usually centering around youthful frustration" is downright false. And they cite King Crimson as their biggest influence. Other than that, yeah, they are alternative metal (or "nu metal", although I don't know what that means anymore), but they're also prog metal. Like how Symphony X is both prog metal and power metal.

Oh boy, you are not ready to undertand Tool. Keep trying and listen to a lot of music.Dexter prog 03:58, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Oh boy, you have no idea how much you just unintentionally parodied the stereotypical Tool fan. So what, you're, like, smarter than everyone now? Please. Ours18 17:36, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

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Tool in my opinion are closer to math rock than anything else and just happen to have a heavy influence

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You should check Arguments About Tool's Genre & Categorization, i think it's best that Tool stays on the list, even if it isn't categorised just as prog metal. Refrigerator 21:35, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Firstly I'd like to say I do not think that I'm "like, smarter than everyone now". I think tool should be on the list, saying that their lyrics are "usually centering around youthful frustration or focusing on shock value alone" is biased. When you say "youthful frustration" I assume you mean Angst? Tool are not angsty, their lyrics may be frustrated but they are a lot more introspective then your average nu-metal band & I do not believe they ever write lyrics for the sole purpose of shocking people. Also I have never heard "Syncopated drum track with heavy open chord guitar crunch in between downbeats of most measures" cited as a characteristic og Nu-metal but I have heard many prog-metal songs that could fit this description. Finally, they have cited King Crimson as their greatest influence but prog metal bands borrow just as much from other styles as Nu-metal does, just in different ways. I certainly can accept they have elements of Nu-metal but they have a large element of prog metal in their sound too.--Fukhed666 10:11, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

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I dont know if its just me, but I consider than as Experimental Metal, and not prog

Tool, again, and Silent Lucidity

Ok, Tool deserve a mention. And in the article it is stated that it is only a fringe prog metal act. But I wonder why they are introduced in the third paragraph in a verbose way, saying why they are not really prog metal, but could be seen as such. They are no typical prog metal band and should be mentioned further below.

Theisorder of jazz is claimed to have anything to do with the extreme and perfect (if infinitely complex) order of progressive metal. Likewise quotes are heard all around. Many musicians do cite some jazz-labeled artists as having some influence, but the reverse is much more likely. Blades 19:00, Dec 31, 1969 (EST)

You're kidding, right? Ask any progressive metal musician, and chances are they'll list at least one major jazz influence. You might prefer progressive metal as a style, but there's no arguing the fact that jazz has had a profound impact on the genre of progressive metal. --Plattopus 16:40, Jan 5, 2005 (UTC)

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I don't think that Skid Row belongs under in the category of prog metal. I would put them under either glam or thrash. TimothyPilgrim 03:29, Feb 21, 2004 (UTC)

I don't think Tool, Skyclad, Vintersorg, Children of Bodom, King Diamond, and a bunch of other bands are progressive metal, I don't even understand how some of these bands would have made the list.

I would definitely say that Tool are deserving of a mention, but I agree that those other bands do not belong in prog metal.

Tool might deserve a mention, but I'm not sure that that mention should be in a progressive metal list. Does the use of odd and unorthodox time signatures qualify a band as prog metal? If so, then I have dozens of bands to add to the list. It seems to me a lot of people want to see their favourite band as something new and different and add it to the list - progressive metal or not. —Quirk 14:49, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Tool also uses a lot of interesting lyrical themes, many of which other groups in this genre don't go near. It's progressive, but I don't know if progressive metal is the right term. --Spartacusprime 19:15, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

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Do we really need the list of progressive metal artists in this page? Perhaps create a List of progressive metal artists page to house them? --Plattopus 16:19, Jan 9, 2005 (UTC)

Yes, the list is way too long. However, I think that there should be some examples on this page as well. --Jannex 09:41, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)

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I don't think Tool should be listed in the list of important/influential bands. I think the band should rather be mentioned somewhere in the text above, stating that it's not a prog metal band but draws some influences from the genre. Possibly instead of that the band X Japan could be added. The band had some major progressive influences which can be heard, for example, in their song "Art of Life" which lasts 28 minutes and invented an own style of band which is highly popular in Japan today. 213.157.1.88 19:49, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Tool are far, far more influencial to progressive metal than 90% of the other bands in the world. They may not fit squarely into progressive metal as a genre themselves, but they have had a major influence on most prog bands in the world today. X Japan, while definitely a prog band themselves, are hardly "influencial" or "important", since they had almost zero commercial success. plattopus^talk 00:36, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Hmm I still fail to see any "major" Progressive Metal Band to be "influenced" by Tool. They possibly influenced bands of other genres but no Prog Metal band. X-Japan on the other hand even created their own "style" of music which is really successful in Japan and slowly starts to be accepted over here, too. 213.157.7.178 18:05, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Dream Theater is one just off the top of my head. Portnoy is constantly talking of Tool are a major influence of the latter DT stuff. plattopus^talk 11:15, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

The Mars Volta?

Are these guys really prog metal? I wouldn't think so, but they've been edited out and back in, now. —BenFrantzDale 15:24, Apr 25, 2005 (UTC)

I put them back in... because I see them as eligible for inclusion in both the prog rock and prog metal articles. Sure, they're not Opeth... but metal is a big part of their sound. plattopus^<smal>talk 15:33, Apr 25, 2005 (UTC)

The Mars Volta is progressive rock, but not progressive metal. From what I've seen, they do not dabble enough in metal to warrant this classification. Spartacusprime 18:54, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

no, they are not metal

--- THEY ARE NOT EVEN PROG, PLEASE!

Rhapsody

Hey these guys need to be mentioned. I know some of their stuff turns almost 100% classical, but in 5 albums they have possibly the best 8 or 9 songs in the genre. Listen to dawn of victory, flames of revenge, and holy thuderforce if you dont believe me.

Rhapsody are in no way progressive metal, and definitely not an "influential or important" band. plattopus^talk 02:38, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

they are more symphonic metal than prog though it is somewhat similar... panasonicyouth9

Rhapsody is prog/power metal. Deimoss 23:19, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Opeth

Sorry guys, but Opeth ain't "black metal." If you want to hear black metal, listen to Burzum, Mayhem, Emperor, Immortal, Darkthrone, etc. They do not sound like Opeth at all. Opeth borrows much more heavily from the death metal genre, particularly the band Morbid Angel. Listen to the vocals for a start, which are not high pitched and screechy like in black metal, and instead are deeper like those found in death metal. Also listen to the song "Masters Apprentice" to hear some clear Morbid Angel rip offs.

• Response to above comment*

Woah, woah.... True Opeth are death metal: to get technical Progressive Death Metal/Progressive Folk, and of course theyre are nothing like te previously mentioned Black Metal bands, but their very earliest work, for example their debut album, "Orchid" does touch on the style of Black Metal. Search enough and you will be able to find the first Opeth logo, which has a much more grim appearance and an inverted cross on the stem of the "p". Ever wonder why that was? Mikael Åkerfeldt grew up listening to Bathory and other classic Black Metal bands, and it was only about the time of Orchid being released that they started to take a more death-like approach.

Chöm

I agree 100% with the above... People who think they were rooted in death metal (On their first 2 albums) should look up the songs, "Where dead angels lie" By disection (The full 5:50 version), "I Sang for the Swans" By Ved Buens Ende, and "I Troldskog Faren Vild" By Ulver...Then look up the bands Cannibal corpse, Obituary, and Nile. Then tell me which bands Opeth sounded more like. Opeth were not in the vein of Classic black metal, But they fit in with the second wave in the mid 90s, (Sometimes called Post-Black metal...)Though there was still obvious prog influence, Just listen to the weird passage near the end of "Under a weeping moon". But also their sound was rooted in classic metal bands like Iron maiden and Metallica to a degree. I personally don't think they are progressive death metal, Especially now when the singing and roaring is about 50 50, Prog death is more along the lines of a band like Death or Akercocke.Spydrfish (talk) 20:30, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

From My arms, Your hearse on death leanings were definitely present considering bands like Morbid angel ...But now they seem more like a prog metal band that roars though, It is still right to call them prog death, but maybe it is worth mentioning the black metal leanings in the first two. Spydrfish (talk) 07:15, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

The Black Mages

Who added this japanese prog band? i havent heard of them before and their influence usign video games hasnt been a big influence. im gonna get rid of it un less someone tells me other why this band is so influential on prog metal? panasonicyouth9

I saw that they remade the FF7 Boss Theme, but thats about all i saw. I would say just get rid of em. Deimoss 23:22, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

The Black Mages perform Final Fantasy songs live, and are led by Final Fantasy's music composer. They aren't prog or metal. --Terminus-Est 00:34, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Actually listen to them. They are 100% metal, because they are not just "performing" Final Fantasy songs but rearranging them so that the songs are "metal" in the end. I also feel that they are "progressive" because every of their song includes usually just "a bit" original FF music and the rest is usually jamming showing of the virtuosity of the bands members. Should definately be added. 213.157.7.178 18:02, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Listen to me

If you want to realise what's true Progressive Metal, listen to Dream Theater. That's what I call "ProgMETALL". All other bands imitate Dream Theater. If you like to contact me, I'm waiting... Aeternus (new member of Wikipedia)

Symphony X is prog metal with "balls" (a thing Dream Theater only show with the Train of Thought album :-). Pain of Salvation is prog metal, and very different from Dream Theater, much, much more progressive! But don´t get me wrong I really love Dream Theater and I have all their albums, including live ones. I just don´t want to see someone make such a silly comment on a genre that is very prolific, and by it´s own progressive nature, very very diversified. Loudenvier 13:02, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

DT has had plenty of songs with balls, TOT was just an album of nothing bu those, symphony x has plenty of soft songs too --E tac 07:04, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

What about DTs album "Awake?" Dream Theater is both Prog Metal and Prog Rock.

Removed Nightwish reference and Symphonic Metal

I´ve removed the Nightwish reference because it is not a prog metal band. It´s a very straight foward power metal band with some symphonic elements (the voice of Tarja alone do not make it a Symphonic Metal band, as it was wrongly stated on the before-mentioned and removed from the article phrase :-). I think this kind of argument around Nightwish and Scandnavian bands being or not progressive to be misleading. Regards Loudenvier 13:06, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Good edit. marnues 00:24, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, you're definitely right about Nightwish not being prog. But if you think that they are not symphonic metal, than you probably have not heard many of their songs, "Ghost Love Score" for one. They are definitely a symphonic metal band.

'METAL'

First off, Tool aren't metal. They (and King Crimson, their gods) deny the prog label as well. Lamb of God aren't progressive, they are metalcore. Mars Volta are not metal. At all. Period. Metalheads would kick the shit out of you if you wore a Mars Volta shirt to a show. Why don't I just put Beethoven and Radiohead on here? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gatesofawesome! (talk • contribs) 21:18, 21 June 2006

Lamb of God isn't metalcore. They're extreme groove metal. Or something. But not metalcore. Not prog metal either, though.

• Explain how Tool isn't metal, please. Spartacusprime 19:16, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Near-total lack of metal instrumentation, different intent, no real metal historical backround (ie, they didn't evolve primarily out of metal) the consensus of the metal community and if that chart on Tool's talk page is any indication, there's something near a consensus among established music sources that they are more rock than metal. Ours18 14:16, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

"Near-total lack of metal instrumentation"...um...you mean guitars and drums? Tool use guitars and drums. "Rock" and "metal" are not exclusive terms, in fact, if you are a "metal" band then you have to be a "rock" band as well, because metal is a form of rock. Even the most out-there metal bands like Cynic are still rock. And, the "consesnsus of the metal community" clearly doesn't include major music publications, such as Revolver (Tool was listed around #11 or #12 on their list of the "heaviest things ever" in the cover story of last month's issue) and Rolling Stone (who describe them as metal in their reviews). You have a right to your opinion, but please never assert that there is a "consensus" that your viewpoint is correct when you have no evidence of this besides a poll on a wikipedia talk page. And, to respond to the original topic starter, Tool do not deny the prog label, they embrace it.

Lamb of God

Why is Lamb of God listed as an influential artist in Prog metal? They make decent enough metal music, but their sound isn't really prog at all; it's mostly just a mix of thrash and hardcore.

 They are Prog-Death metal? maybe?
 Deimoss 05:07, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

They were grindcore, now they are metalcore. see LoG article for sources.--  LYKANTROP  ✉ 09:10, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Edge of Sanity

Hmm, shouldn't there be some mention in here of EoS's Crimson albums (the original Crimson in particular, probably the first single-song concept album in the death metal arena) ?

Progulus

I added a link to Progulus.com for the external links portion. It was removed, but I feel it should be there. What better way to learn about Progressive Metal than to listen to it. I'm not an owner or DJ of progulus either, btw, just a fan.

I added it again, we'll see if we can get this on. It's neither spam nor advertisement. This is not a comercial website, it's a listener driven site for the exploration of the progressive genre. UniversalMigrator 22:34, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Dropped D reference

I'm sorry, but I'm fairly sure the reference to King's X "creating" Dropped D tuning is wrong. Isn't it used in some classical music with violins or similar instruements? Even if it isn't, isn't it used on Led Zep's "Moby Dick"? Even if it is right, is it really necessary to include that part of the article? GrantRS 15:15, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

   dropped d sucks anyway, I think it should be taken off cause its an embarassment to prog

Dropped D was created by the first person to tune his low E string to D. Duh! (Okay, no more joking.) Spartacusprime 18:56, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree Dropped tunnigs SUCK, but this is not a valid statement for removing it. As you may know, Dream Theater (creators of Prog metal. Yes they created the genre) have a song called Home which is in drop D an it is an excellent song. -- Dexter prog 19:16, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

"Creators of prog metal?" Fates Warning and Queensrÿche anybody? And how is drop-d an embarrassment to prog metal? It's just a tuning. Ours18 19:48, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Queensrÿche is just a GLAM metal band and Fates Warning a heavy metal which later on started to use some progressive influences. -- Dexter prog 20:57, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Dexter prog, you are wrong. Anyway, I've been attending a course originally entitled "the guitar in popular music" and the fact is that drop D tuning not only pre-dates progressive metal, it pre-dates the electric guitar. So all the argument about whether "dropped D sucks" are completely irrelevant.GrantRS 11:17, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Concept albums?

Just because a band has ONE concept album, i don't think that counts them in as prog. Prog usually has a technical instrument attribute to it also, and it shouldn't apply to only one album. Queensryche is pretty diverse too, im suprised they're not on the power metal list also, thier queen of the reich stuff was power metal.

Nightwish is not Prog metal and a new band

And they never will be.

Ok there is also a new band out there called To-Mera. They are Progressvie metal and are being added to the list.

Depite the lack of any arguments concerning Nightwish from your part, I tend to agree. However, To-Mera should NOT be added to this list since it is solely for influential or important progmetal artists. Please add them to List of progressive metal artists instead. Also, why don't you consider registering with wikipedia? Petergee1 11:40, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Nightwish are a strictly Operatic/Symphony Power Metal band, there music is almost all played in 4/4 and it's all pretty straight-forward.

Coroner's influence on modern Progressive metal,

The article makes no mention of it, though it's undenieable that Death and many other's took a huge influence from them.

How did Coroner influence Death?? Hello, Death & Coroner had released a CD at the same time(1987). I mean, I can see how they utilized the blues with some lite growling but I don't think that makes them Progressive. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.34.108.105 (talk) 15:19, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Concerto Moon

Removed 'em. First of all they are not "really" prog but sound more like Japanese Rhapsody of Fire with somewhat virtuosic solos and second they are hardly influential at all. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 213.157.1.115 (talk • contribs) 13:11, 3 December 2006 (UTC).

DELETING A BAND

Guys, if you don't know a band, do not delete it saying it is not progressive metal. If you can't find the band anywhere try http://www.metal-archives.com/, although they are sometimes wrong (they are humans) -- Dexter prog 22:35, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Dexter, the point of this list is not to be comprehensive and to list each and every progmetal band. It's for important and influential bands. There is another page called List of progressive metal artists. Add those bands there. Thanks Petergee1 18:49, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

but there is people who is constantly deleting influential artists. -- Dexter prog 19:58, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Dexter, the fact that I removed some bands is NOT vandalism. I feel that Unmoored should not be in this list. Its Wikipedia article is incredibly short and frankly, the fact that I've never heard of them leads me to believe that they are neither influential or important enough to include them in this list. As I pointed out, feel free to add them to List of progressive metal artists. The list in THIS article should really only contain the most important artists in the genre, to illustrate the style of music (if I had my way, I would be removing some more bands, but I'm being prudent for the moment). Next, the article about Arcturus does not mention the band playing progmetal. If someone deleted a well-known band like Angra for not being prog (which IMO is only semi-justified), than an obscure band like Arcturus can certainly be removed from this list. I provided a rationale for deleting Iron Maiden in my edit summary. So, before calling people vandals, try to come up with some arguments why those bands should be included in this intentionally incomplete list. I'm reverting once again. Petergee1 15:56, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

The fact that you have not listened to them proves you don't know what music they make. They are one of the pioneers of the progressive death metal in Sweden, so removing them is not justified. Here you have info on them: http://www.metal-archives.com/band.php?id=6369 -- Dexter prog 17:08, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

I think we already have the most important prog death metalband in this list (Opeth). Why not put Amorphis in there as well (sarcasm intended). Anyway, while I still feel Unmoored does not belong in this list, I will not revert again right away to avoid an edit war. I may do so in the future. Anyone else care to add to this discussion? Petergee1 19:56, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

While you're at it, you should delete Megadeth & Forbidden as prime examples of Prog Metal! I mean, Come On..Stop it! This is getting ridiculous. Megadeth was NEVER prog anything..PERIOD!! This article makes us look stoopid... Your most influential list should look like this - Watchtower,Fates Warning,Dream Theater,Atheist,Cynic & Opeth. Those are the Prog Metal bands that really stood out & made an impact on the metal community of today. Guppusmaximus 10:31, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Hardcore/jazz fusion

Dexter, why do you keep reverting this paragraph (to which I did not contribute btw) without giving any explanation whatsoever? This isn't vandalism which you can go and revert without a comment, this a paragraph that someone put some effort into. At first glance, it doesn't even look that bad or irrelevant. Before removing paragraphs like those, please explain yourself. Oh and 86.3.205.7, why don't you register with Wikipedia? Much easier that way. Petergee1 13:43, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

The paragraph sounds wrong. Progressive metal has always had jazz/fussion elements and the hardcore/metalcore bands listed are not close to prog metal. --Dexter prog 01:03, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Influential and important artists

This is the place that only the main progressive metal bands can stay. Bands like King Diamond or Iron Maiden have just some elements of progressive metal. They can stay at the List of progressive metal artists, but it's ridiculous for them to stay at "Influential and important artists" section. So please, do not add them there anymore. --Λeternus 16:33, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

I think it makes even more sense for a band like maiden to be on a list titled "influential and important" artists, since they are both extremely influential and importnt to the progressive metal genre. --E tac 18:26, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

There are a few bands listed as influential that didn't influenced anything (e.g.: Zero Hour) but lets just leave the list as it is. --Dexter prog 19:20, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Should the list be retitled then, or perhaps include a few seperate more specific lists, such as on the thrash metal page. --E tac 19:40, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Now I've re-read the title, it's ok. It says influential and IMPORTANT artists, so I guess Iron Maiden could be added being an important artist... --Dexter prog 19:49, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Ok, now decide what bands can stay there, and remove those who are not influential. --Λeternus 23:17, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Queen is not influencial nor progressive metal --Dexter prog 02:09, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Queen is not influential? I'm willing to bet most progressive metal bands would list them as an influence. --E tac 02:23, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

And where are '70s prog rock bands (except Rush)? They are the most influential bands in the prog metal genre... --Λeternus 12:57, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

whe are adding prog metal bands, PROG METAL. It would be wrong to add prog rock bands because we then would have to add jazz and blues bands that influenced prog rock and classical music artist and etc. --Dexter prog 15:30, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

I added Rush along with Queen as you can see, this is why I suggested the possibility of creating seperate lists.--E tac 17:08, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Ok, but what do you suggest for this lists? --Dexter prog 17:48, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Well possibly a list for bands who had a major influence on the genre but may not be considered progressive metal themselves. --E tac 18:10, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Sounds fine to me. --Dexter prog 19:04, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Two lists: 1. The main progressive metal bands and 2. bands that are not prog metal but who had a major influence on the genre. So mates, what do you think? --Λeternus 20:45, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Sounds like a plan. --E tac 20:46, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Agree. --Dexter prog 21:39, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps this list should just be removed, it will be a constant source of debate and any of the most important and influential artists will already be mentioned in the article.--E tac 11:19, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

You're probably right. I totally agree with removing the list. --ΛэтєяиuS 10:04, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

OK mates, do you all agree that the list should be removed? If yes, go ahead - do it. --ΛэтєяиuS 20:03, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

If the List of progressive metal artists is going to be kept there should be a link so people can find it. Truemetalfan March 18, 2007

There is a link under "see also" Nevermind you just added it I think. I thought it was already there. --E tac 00:02, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

OK.About influences or importance of some bands to and in progressive metal can be a part of the article, but I think there should be some very small list of TYPICAL progressive metal bands. Imagine: somebody, who doesn´t know much about progressive metal wants to learn something and watch some names too. Lets make a smaal list in which are bands about which you can say: This is progressive metal! Have a look on groove metal or avant-garde metal how it works. There are about 20 bands and only 2 or 3 are bullshit although nobody argues and cares about it. There must be some list. And if you don´t know if some band should be there or not, just ask yourself fairly, if it is a TYPICAL prog metal and if this is A PROG METAL BAND.. than just take from these the ´´famous ones´´...There really gotta be some examples in the small list...--Lycantrophe 11:45, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Progarchives

From a quick read, the text seems to be exactly the same as on this page. Did they rip off Wikipedia or is it the other way around?

Linky: http://www.progarchives.com/subgenre.asp?style=19 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 212.213.216.212 (talk) 06:38, 23 April 2007 (UTC).

No, they did not rp off. As well as the doom metal's officialpage is the Doom Metal. com, all progressive music's official page is Progarchives. Reason, why is the page named as progarchives is because, it is however very stupid, if the page is under the name of "progressive metal" or "progressive rock" (stupidly unravelling). Progarchives is a long time running site dedicated exclusively to all progressive music.

Prog as a different term

Wtf!?! who came up with this? no-one uses prog metal as a different term from progressive metal... stop making stuff up and putting it on wikipedia. If your going to something as retarded as this, at least cite references.150.101.149.105 06:31, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

I think it is fairly clear that bands such as Dream Theater who are keeping within a certain sound are not necessarily known as progressive anymore, but they are certainly "prog". I don't think that Dream Theater's more recent albums could be considered to "progress" music at all, they are just repeating the sound from their previous albums. This is not a bad thing, it has just caused people to pigeonhole the "prog" sound more. And I don't appreciate being called retarded, especially from someone who can't even use correct grammar. Kidburla2002 23:53, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

I've never heard people use this term as a different genre before. Have you just made this up? Maybe you should write an section on how progressive metal bands aren't as experimental anymore, but if you're (lol) going to put this in, at least cite references of people using it as a seperate term.150.101.149.105 03:05, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Man, (User:150.101.149.105), I agree with you and I strongly suspect some original research/personal essay to be involved here. Making a distinction between Prog and Progressive seems nonsensical to me. However I don't think you need to use some arrogant, dismissive or offensive tone to underline this. We’re here to provide reliable information not to bash each other. Mentioning your legitimate doubt is sufficient.

@Kidburla2002, if you can't provide any serious source, I'm afraid we’ll have to keep your chapter removed. Your description is all fine and dandy but unfortunately it sounds like a personal essay even though it attempts to sound as if it is just common sense. (i.e. it is fairly clear...) But sorry, no, it is not fairly clear...I’m musicologist and I never ever heard such a distinction, and even in my encyclopaedias I can’t seem to find any mention of it either. Of course I see your point concerning stagnation and progression, but I doubt we can make any stylistic distinction out of this with terms like "prog" and "progressive". Beside your description seems to involve normative appreciation of what bands SHOULD do to be “progressive”…( i.e: "Dream Theater's more recent albums couldn't be considered to "progress" music at all, they are just repeating the sound…"). But here we only care about concrete objective facts. That is to say what things ARE, not what they SHOULD BE.

(Btw… sorry for my crappy English, this is not my mother tongue…. I know I’m not concerned by your attack concerning correct grammar but I thought I needed to specify it anyway... )Frédérick Duhautpas 14:02, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Oh and Muse shouldnt be anywhere near this article as they aren't metal, and could be described as New Prog but nowhere near Neo-prog

I agree with you about Muse, sorry this was my mistake. However, genres are what you make of them. Search on any search engine for "prog vs progressive" and you will find dozens of people arguing this point. Kidburla2002 14:21, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

@Kidburla2002: I'm sorry, but I think you mistook how a Wikipedia article is supposed to be sourced. I couldn't care less what is debated by fans on forums. When I'm talking about SERIOUS sources, I mean: a journalist's, a music teacher's, a musicologist's publication or at worst a certain number of full webpages all over the web describing that difference, not just some trivial discussions in a forum. Man, Wikipedia article DOES requires reliable sources which involve an objective observation not just some discussion boards where fans can say everything and its contrary, among other personal opinions.Frédérick Duhautpas 19:13, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

I understand perfectly the rules about sourcing. But sometimes these rules need to be broken. Jimmy Wales said, "Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in the sum of all knowledge". Since this is an opinion shared by many people, then surely it is part of knowledge, and deserves to be put on Wikipedia. Kidburla2002 21:26, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Well, no offence, but I'm afraid you'll have some difficulties to convince users and mods here about this. Because an opinion is shared by many people doesn't mean it is necessarilly reliable. Imagine a world in which every single mystic or misinformed human being can freely sell their fantasy as if it was some pure scientific knowledge? This is an encyclopeadia here, man, not a forum where you can share any fan's opinion as a source of knowledge. Opinion, even a collective one,is just an opinion, it is not a reliable source per se. We don't care about opinions, we want published objective facts. The "many-people-do-believe-so-so-it's-true" stance has no relevance here. No, We need reliable sources preferably from professional or experts not just from common fans that discuss on a board.Frédérick Duhautpas 09:40, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

progolous radio????????????? It is Progarchives!!

This should be probably removed and changed to Progarchives, because, there is no list of prog rock and prog metal bands and that site is only site for the listening or some other very fan stylish, but actually NOT the DEFINING, site to tell what progressive rock and metal is. In all serious thoughts, Progarchives is world's only relevant and trustworthy source and longrunning COMMUNITY of prog music fans all around the world, wich is dedicated exclusively to all progressive music, such as progressive rock, progressive metal, krautrock, progressive jazz for exp, then logically there should be given a priority to their bandlist. That site and their bandlist is not a "solitary opinion", such mine and yours could be, but is a built on a COMMUNITY OPINION (wich often included a lot of compromises about some "doubtablebands").

ProgArchives are not the first nor are they the only: http://www.proggnosis.com/GENRE_PMSGGuide.asp == DBSilver ==

Ofcourse they're only. Or at least only prog rock-site which take its working seriously. Unless if would REALLY trust the site wich wrongly refer to bands like Within Temptation or After Forever as a prog bands. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Talvimiekka (talk • contribs) 16:08, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Falsetto.

I think, that falsetto/high and loud singing deserve a mention. Because prog metal bands often using that sing technique. And even Tool have an high and loud singing.

For some reasons I fail to hear falsetto in bands such as Opeth, Cynic, Atheist or Pestilence...

Don't forget that progressive metal can't be reduced to the Heavy-metal/powermetal-based bands exclusively...even though they are the most popular. Otherwise you're correct, most of the heavy/power prog bands make use of falsetto but it doesn't mean it defines the entire prog genre.Frédérick Duhautpas 23:21, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

ProgArchives are not the first nor are they the only: http://www.proggnosis.com/GENRE_PMSGGuide.asp == DBSilver ==

Ofcourse they're only. Unless if you REALLY trust the site that wrongly refer to bands like Within Temptation or After Forever as a prog bands. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Talvimiekka (talk • contribs) 16:03, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Metallica

No, I am not about to suggest that Metallica is a prog metal band so don't shit yourself yet. I think they are worth noting as an influence though, I mean listen to And Justice For All and Master of Puppets, those albums are rife with complex songs structures, weird time signatures, and mixing of clean parts with heavy thrash metal. I don't understand how they could not be considered an influence, since just about everyone who plays metal music acknowledges Metallica as an inspiration to their sound. - Razorhead August 9, 2007

Why not shit ourselves yet? ...Justice For All and particulary MOP are Progressive Metal. Just because they have thrashy sound and don't make pathetic acoustic or orchestral theatre doesn't mean that they are not prog metal. "Justice" is "progressiver" than some bands in the article, so shit yoursef yet :)Lykantrop ^(Talk) 19:54, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

I would take issue with the necessity of qualifying Metallica with "pre 1991." That is not NPOV because of the backhanded insinuation that Metallica jumped the shark with their self-titled LP. Plus, the way it is written in the article, it looks like Megadeth might be included in the pre 1991 category. I am thinking about removing it. Any objections? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.128.32.165 (talk) 15:48, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, Metallica are Prog Metal, by the definition given here - and ProgArchives has recently seen the light and decided to include them on the site. It is true, though, that their first 4 albums fit the descriptions, while the second four do not. Death Magnetic appears to be a return to ...And Justice form - and is almost certainly Prog Metal for much of the album, as far as I can tell.62.200.22.2 (talk) 13:40, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Without being sourced

How can this page been, without, any references? We need relevant source about prog metal! Etos —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.114.156.250 (talk) 11:13, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

There really are no good sources about Prog Metal, including Prog Archives (which is the most authoritative one). I have pushed them to get a decent definition done, but so far, to no avail. I'll have a bash over the next few months, using the Progressive Rock page as a kind of template - the big problem is the absence of any decent authoritative published resources. MarkCertif1ed (talk) 09:34, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Tech metal =/= Prog metal

I don't see why tech metal is redirected to prog metal when you search for it. Bands such as Gorguts, Origin, Necrophagist, Theory in Practice; they all have little prog influence but to say that they aren't technical would just be wrong. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.218.238.185 (talk) 11:29, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Avant-garde difference section

I have added the unreferenced tag to the "Differences with avant-garde metal" section. Obviously, I want to see this sourced, since I see quite a bit of overlap. Unexpect, for example, has been listed as both -- their MySpace page actually has both tagged, and they are listed at ProgArchives. This section needs some referencing to convince me that it's even a viable argument, let alone fact. --Anon 121.209.160.15 16:49, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Sourced. But this is not the only part that should be sourced but the entire article...I added a tag as well. So now this is your turn guys. Frédérick Duhautpas 17:08, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Metal fusion

I don't know if metal fusion must be cited as a progressive metal subgenre. It's only a fusion between jazz-fusion and metal (metal, not prog metal). It's very similiar with prog metal, and references (Prog Archives) name this genre as "progressive metal fusion". Any suggestions? --ΛэтєяиuS (talk) 22:25, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

I Removed your section on Extreme prog metal beacause it is directly lifted from the prog archives without suppling citation and poorly written, which is a no go. If you wish to put it back in the article, I would suggext that Rewrite the information so it is more enclyopedic and provide a link to the progarchives. 209.107.117.197 (talk) 02:11, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I continued the discussion to say that jazz fusion (or metal fusion) should be added in see also but if you are concerning that the genre isn't metal then in that case progressive rock should be removed. It is a related genre to progressive metal because even this very genre uses influences from it. I see no reason why it shouldn't be there. −₪ÇɨгcaғucɨҲ₪ ^kaiden 00:05, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Key Artists and THIS ARTICLE GENERALLY

What about to make a small list of key artists like in Groove Metal? It helps the reader to make a picture about the genre...I would start and discuss it here a first...Which bands (and why) would you write down as key artists for progressive metal?: Lykantrop ^(Talk) 22:39, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm not in favor of such a list, on the basis that it is likely to be contentious, and not very small. The Diversity section does a good job of explaining why, and History+Diversity contain more than enough names to give a reasonably accurate impression. ShaneCarey (talk) 00:43, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

I understand what you mean. But the problem is that such a list don't need "more than enough names". The reader should see some small list of 10- max20 bands next to the overflow of names in the article. And actually this article gives to prog.metal leaders such as Opeth or Tool the same importance as to Pestilence, which almost even does not touch prog.metal all their career long. The aricle itself needs pretty lots of work, cause there are even pretty significant mistakes, but it has good base. If somebody reads this Progressive Metal article, than he has no idea which bands he should listen to. And about the mistakes - for example: Such a statement as "(...)and Pestilence also blended jazz/fusion with death metal" is really extremely subjective and non-professional. Pestilence, a typical death metal band, has on one single album (Spheres (album)) several short acoustic sections (which have nothing to do with JazzFusion), and Wikiedia's aricle about Progressive Metal labels them as Jazz Fusion...Lykantrop ^(Talk) 19:30, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree with your statement of the problem, but I maintain that a list will not solve it. It seems unlikely that it could be kept down to "some small list." Good on you for trying to agree on a list on the Talk page before adding it to the article, but once it gets on the article, it'll be an invitation to an edit war. Tool is a useful example, as they are entirely notable but not universally agreed to be "prog.metal leaders." Again, I believe the Diversity section does a good job of explaining why key artists will be harder to identify than one might like; I don't think that directing a reader to listen to "Aenima" and "Deliverance" would give them a much better idea of what puts Opeth and Tool under the same umbrella.

That said, this is just one guy's opinion. I'd love for others to weigh in on this, and I will participate in a list if we agree that it will be useful. ShaneCarey (talk) 20:31, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

A List could be very useful if these people actually understood what defines true Progressive Metal and there really is a short list of crucial bands that should be the foundation. Progressive Metal is based on Jazz/Fusion [Dexter points this out but no one listens]. Watchtower wasn't Tech Metal, they were Prog because they fused the two genres before any other metal band. Watchtower's music has sped up Jazz riffs, in turn, this is how Progressive Metal was established! The list should focus on each band's influence to their respective decade and not what progressive rock bands may have influenced them. That's why this article is loaded with mistakes! It is about Progressive Metal and NOT Progressive Rock! Guppusmaximus —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.30.194.94 (talk) 13:49, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

This kind of lists in heavy metal subgenres on Wikipedia has been abandoned. This lists have their own separate articles now--  LYKANTROP  ✉ 16:11, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Iron Maiden As An Influence

I really think that Iron Maiden has heavily influenced the whole genre of prog. metal. If you listen to their albums Powerslave, Somewhere in Time, and Seventh Son of a Seventh Son, you will hear what I'm talking about, especially with the latter of the three. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.54.13.62 (talk) 19:43, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

I get what you mean, but we can't just assume they were, someone (a music reviewer, musician author, etc) would have to say (write) that. Although, during the start of progressive metal, bands like Dream Theatre and Queensryche were heavily influenced by traditional heavy metal. −₪ÇɨгcaғucɨҲ₪ ^kaiden 01:49, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

This page needs a complete overhaul

It's currently described by Wikipedia as "Start Class" - the lowest quality award given after "Stub".

A while ago I did some work on the Progressive Rock page, and I am a Collaborator at ProgArchives.com, just so you know my credentials.

The main problem I see is the definition itself, which is inaccurate and misleading, IMHO.

Progressive metal (often referred to simply as prog metal) is a sub-genre of heavy metal music which blends the powerful, guitar-driven sound of metal with the complex compositional structures, odd time signatures, and intricate instrumental playing of progressive rock. Some progressive metal bands are also influenced by jazz fusion and classical music. Like progressive rock songs, progressive metal songs are usually much longer than standard metal songs, and they are often thematically linked in concept albums. As a result, progressive metal is rarely heard on mainstream radio and video programs.

OK, let's examine this;

"complex compositional structures" (of Progressive Rock).

Just about every "Prog Metal" piece I've heard from "representative" bands lacks these in abundance, and where the structures are "complex", they tend to be mere extensions of the type of structures that Metallica brought to Heavy Metal, that is to say, a standard song format with elongated sections, particularly the instrumental.

Complex Prog Rock pieces like, say, "The Musical Box" (Genesis) or "On Reflection" (Gentle Giant) do not take this relatively simple approach, but are flexible with form, using it to express the drama that is inherent in the song. There is no chorus in either piece, and there is development of sections to the point that individual sections blur into each other and become difficult to identify as such.

Until Prog Metal typically matches the complexity in form of Prog Rock (there are hundreds of other Prog examples where form cannot be reduced to A-B-A-B-C-A-B, which is generic simple song structure), this statement is actually false and misleading.

"odd time signatures and intricate instrumental playing of progressive rock"

I don't find riffing particularly intricate - anyone can play power chords. The intricacies of Prog Rock stem from the musicians playing independent parts that make up a greater whole. The "intricacies" of heavy metal lie more in challenging techniques, usually made challenging by one or more of the components, rather than an attempt to express something.

Again, the two examples of Prog Rock I chose are good examples of where techniques are adapted primarily for the expression of the song.

While it's true that Prog Rock uses these two techniques, this statement is more of a "for example" than a good comparison - Prog Rock has more typical characteristics than these (see the Prog Rock page - I rewrote the Typical Characteristics section, and it is more or less unchanged), but these are simply elements - some pop music also has "odd time signatures" and "intricate playing" (Golden Brown, by the Stranglers, for example).

Progressive Metal seems to be determined by its techniques - so wouldn't it be fairer to call it Technical Metal instead? If not (and I understand that there is a more or less separate genre of technical metal), what really makes Progressive Metal progressive? What are the real progressive characteristics?

"influenced by jazz fusion"...

Not many of them - this does not seem to be a typical characteristic, despite many claims to the contrary. Where such influence is apparent, it's usually indirect - e.g. where a guitarist has had lessons from Joe Satriani and practised his modes. The end result does not normally come across as anything to do with jazz - with obvious (rare) exceptions. Or have I missed something?

"Classical Music"

Again, rarely - and what I've heard tends to be cycle of fifths stuff, or a keyboard playing a string sound. This is not a typical characteristic of Progressive Metal, as it is in Progressive Rock - I've yet to hear the metal equivalent of, say, The Enid.

"Like progressive rock songs, progressive metal songs are usually much longer than standard metal songs, and they are often thematically linked in concept albums. As a result, progressive metal is rarely heard on mainstream radio and video programs"

Wouldn't you agree that this is tentative stuff? Why doesn't this describe "Master of Puppets", or most Rush albums?

Indeed, all of the above describes "Master of Puppets", except the jazz fusion bit.

I expect there will be time-wasters who will take offence at what I've written here - so I'll ignore those as best I can, and try to discuss this with the adults who understand what debate means.

I have no solution - I need to hear from people who understand the music and can describe it in musical terms that we can discuss, and get this article up to at least a Class B. MarkCertif1ed (talk) 08:22, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Four words for you to see the complexity of this genre. Dream Theater,Endless Sacrifice. Jonasbrotherareterrible (talk) 12:38, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes I agree that this article is pretty very poor. The main problem of this article is that it is total original research. If you want to kind of improve it, then you should start with collecting as many reliable sources as possible. There is no point now of discussing what in the article is wrong and what is true if you have no sources. Maybe you know it already, but ProgArchives are not a reliable source under WP:SPS. You can use for example this reliable source. In the featured article heavy metal should be some good sources as well. Cheers!--  LYKANTROP  ✉ 19:38, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Honestly, I feel it's the label itself that's become problematic - the implication has been stretched to the point of breaking that progressive metal still has anything to do with progressive rock . If you look at Dream Theater today, arguably one of the most poplar prog metal bands (no, I have no direct evidence to support this), you'll see that many of their songs follow the predictable verse/chorus structure while they tend to leave long sections of instrumental soloing and/or interlude in the bridge/"C" section (as you noted above). This formal technique has carried over to many other "progressive" metal bands. In my mind, song structure is one of the first characteristics to leap out when declaring something "progressive" or otherwise.

I'm not a huge progressive metal fan; I'm very familiar with Pagan's Mind and a good amount of Dream Theater's work, as well as some of the other big names (Cynic, Atheist, Symphony X), but the article could probably benefit from a ProgArchives metal collaborator, if one exists. Reliable sources are also a must. The label that you propose, "Technical Metal" is perhaps a more apt one, but unfortunately it may be too late to change the actual label; we might just have to fudge the definition instead. For more insight, see the horror story behind the term "neo-classical metal" (hint: it has absolutely nothing to do with Stravinsky).

I add to this a short definition from metalcrypt.com, a metal review site. Although it's one reviewer's opinion and some of it repeats what is already in the article, perhaps it'll shed more light on the roots of the label for the purposes of this discussion (original text here):

"Progressive Metal: Progressive Metal is properly a mix of the progressive art rock of the 70's such as Yes, Rush and King Crimson with the basic sound of melodic Traditional Metal to produce more musically challenging and intricate sounds. The founders and most influential bands in modern Prog Metal would have to be Queensryche and Fates Warning. Both these bands emerged in the early to mid 80s with a definite Traditional style, but distinguished themselves with advanced musicianship and a penchant for elaborate songwriting. Queensryche (or their marketing department) were the first to use the phrase "thinking man's metal" as a selling point, but in fact it was Fates Warning, with their obtuse and elaborate arrangements, that were the more progressive of the two. On their transitional album "Perfect Symmetry" they created a dry, very Rush-influenced sound that was still unmistakably a metal sound, and almost all modern Prog Metal is derived from it in some measure.

But no discussion of Prog can be complete without mention of Dream Theater – without doubt the most influential band in the genre. DT took the basic Fates Warning approach and added layers of keyboards as well as utterly opulent, over the top songwriting that placed a premium on complexity and showy musicianship. Modern Prog Metal was born. Now it is hard to find a Prog album that does not to some degree sound like Dream Theater's defining "Images and Words" album, and equally hard to find a reviewer who can avoid making comparisons. Now that Dream Theater have moved farther and farther away from a metal sound, other bands have moved in to fill the void. And we have bands like Spiral Architect and Power Of Omens who place an even greater emphasis on high-wire musicianship and incredibly technical songwriting. Like jazz and prog rock, Progressive Metal inspires its share of snobbery, and the mantle of "thinking man's metal" has sometimes been used dismissively on the rest of the metal scene. This is a genre that by its very pretensions invites animosity, and probably has as many fervent detractors as fans. Nevertheless it remains a vital and significant genre, not least of which by way of its influence on other genres, for where Prog and Power cross there are some very good bands to be found indeed.

Pioneers: Queensryche, Fates Warning, Dream Theater.

Notable Bands: Spiral Architect, Shadow Gallery, Power Of Omens, later Lost Horizon, Pagan's Mind, Dreamscape, Threshold, Ion Vein, Pain Of Salvation."

Some other points:

"influenced by jazz fusion"...

In my opinion, no, definitely not a "typical" characteristic. Off the top of my head, Cynic and Ron Jarzombek (Blotted Science, Spastic Ink) are the only two I can think of that display a very prominent and identifiable connection to jazz fusion (some of Cynic's interludes might as well be transplanted from any number of Allan Holdsworth songs). Additionally, Ron Jarzombek independently "discovered" a form of serialism and posted his findings to his website, see links here and here.

"Classical Music"

Atypical. Dream Theater has used guest musicians to add orchestral instrumentation (on the album Octavarium, an orchestra was used to back the songs "Sacrificed Sons" and "Octavarium," while the song "The Answer Lies Within" contains a string quartet). Rhapsody of Fire frequently uses orchestra and choir, sometimes sounding more like a concert production or a film score than a metal band, though it seems to me a stretch to call them "progressive." In both cases, the examples I gave draw only upon the instrumentation of classical music, not the formal considerations (some examples of sonata form in metal would be welcomed here, if they exist).

Symphony X has also used considerably "classical-sounding" instrumentation (keyboard patches) and orchestration techniques (see "Part I - Odysseus Theme/Overture" off their album The Odyssey), as well as borrowings from Holst's The Planets in the song "The Divine Wings of Tragedy" (from the album of the same name). The Wikipedia page for their album V: The New Mythology Suite mentions: "The album includes pieces from Verdi's Requiem, Mozart's Requiem, Bach's Concerto for Harpsichord in D minor, BWV 1052, and Bartók's Concerto for Orchestra. So, it's more than can be said for music that is not "progressive" (how much classical quotation makes its way into jazz/pop songs? just speculating here), but it isn't saying much regardless.

So what am I trying to say? To sum up, the label "progressive metal," with its connotations of identifiable links to the progressive rock genre, is at best unwieldy and at worst misleading. What do we do about it? I took into consideration the first sentence of the "Diversity" section: "Progressive metal can be broken down into countless [ahem, doubtful] sub-genres corresponding to certain other styles of music that have influenced progressive metal groups." Perhaps "progressive metal" should be made an unexceptional umbrella term for several closely-related subgenres, all contained on this page. Here's where it gets tough: an unexceptional definition for all the bands mentioned on the current page would probably include the typical instrumentation (guitars, bass, drums, vocals, often keyboards), the technical level of playing, and maybe the willingness to experiment with rhythm (lots of polyrhythm and unconventional meter in this music). That's about it. What else do all of these bands share? Passitivity (talk) 18:40, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

I really dont want to be a pain in the ass here and I hate to say that, but those sources you posted above are not reliable. They are useless for Wikipedia. See WP:RS, WP:V (specially WP:SPS). I hope this helps. --  LYKANTROP  ✉ 19:33, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Sorry for the confusion, I only meant for the links I posted to be an aid to discussion on this page. Further, all of the assertions I put forth in my post draw from my experience solely as a fan of progressive metal; I have not read any of the books listed on the heavy metal page that qualify as reliable sources (e.g., Metal: The Definitive Guide) and am relying upon others who have done so (although — somewhat pessimistically — I do not expect to find their definitions of progressive metal any more revealing than those I have seen before). Passitivity (talk) 20:54, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

My take on the situation is that all the previous work needs to be pruned down and used only as a basic guideline for a new article. The current article is unsourced, unencyclopaedic, and generally a disaster. The hard part, really, is describing a type of music which has largely evaded popular media or any semi-organized scene. Much of the definition of prog metal has been a hindsight re-assignment based on qualities (Cynic and Death certainly didn't have prog metal in mind when they played it). I am tempted to create a talk discussion section purely for the dump of reliable or semi-reliable sources (read: self-published sources) for the subject from which we can build a framework for a new article. All good things take time, and in enough spins of Light of Day, Day of Darkness, we'll get there. 71.203.185.108 (talk) 06:35, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

A useful place to start would probably be to define what it is: Obviously it's a form of heavy metal, but what is it that makes it "Progressive" - and how much is it related to Progressive rock other than lip-service?

Fortunately ProgArchives.com has recently added Metallica, which I think clears a few of the mysteries up - the definitions of Prog Metal that exist all cite "Long songs", "Complex Structures", "Technically challenging", etc., and Metallica tick all these boxes in their first 4 albums - they even develop the material, making the songs feel through-composed rather than section-composed as Dream Theater & co. tend to.

Through-composition is a defining characteristic of Progressive Rock (it's what makes the music literally "progress") - and since Metallica predate and are a heavy (sic) influence on Dream Theater, this may make things easier.

However, I realise that this suggestion may be controversial among the Prog Metal community - so I'd rather comment on what others have to suggest than try to lay down the law here.

It would also be useful to explore the history in more depth - nothing is born in a vacuum, and Dream Theater didn't suddenly appear out of nowhere playing music people had never heard before. The term was used to describe the music of Rush in the late 1970s, although I can't find any written evidence of this, and before Rush, there was Budgie and Wishbone Ash, and before them came Spooky Tooth (who created an album in 1967 under the name of the Heavy Metal Kids, which actually sounds like a subgenre of Progressive Rock, early Krautrock - and there IS written and recorded evidence of that!).

There have to be ways to properly differentiate the music from "regular" heavy metal and progressive rock, whilst confirming the links (and acknowledging the grey lines).

What we DON'T need is subgenres of something that has yet to have a definition, or long lists of bands that sound totally dissimilar and generate arguments. There must be a short list of bands that are uncontroversially recognised as Prog Metal. 8 would do - and if they sound very different from each other, then that's good, because it establishes the genre to have diversity in common with Progressive Rock.

These are simply my observations, nothing more - and I know how OR is frowned upon - but this article needs to start somewhere! 62.200.22.2 (talk) 13:37, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

History

This section begins by discussing Queensryche and Dream Theater as if both started at the same time. I believe that QR had a 10 year or so head start over DT. I've now hacked around the first section, which will no doubt upset some people as it disagrees with their opinions - but tried to stick to the observable facts and avoid OR - if a table is made out of wood, it's not OR to say so, and if Prog Metal is clearly not rooted in Prog Rock, in terms of something immediately verifiable such as song structure, then surely that's OK to point out.

The bands mentioned are a good start - I'll be using these (in the absence of any actual published references) to do some historical research - which bands came first historically, and what observable and verifiable achievements can be noted in their music.

I remain a little puzzled - where do I start? With Dream Theater or Queensryche, 10 years earlier?

This page has been a bit quiet recently - I guess I'll just dig into the history books and find out. MarkCertif1ed (talk) 09:37, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Before doing anything, and to answer your question "where do I start?"... this is Wikipedia... you start with references. Uncited original research is not required here. Especially when its strewn with poetic adjectives which, like original research, is not required here. Dry cold boring statements with verifiable citations. The Real Libs-speak politely 10:55, 31 January 2009 (UTC)