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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Klonimus (talk | contribs) at 16:49, 4 December 2005 (→‎[[:Category:Cities with significant Arab Israeli populations]]). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

December 4

Category:Alpha Phi Alpha Fraternity brothers to Category:Alpha Phi Alpha brothers

Appears to be completely redundant. Proposal is to merge to category name more similar to others in Category:United States student societies Dystopos 15:56, 4 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Mongolian languages to Category:Mongolic languages

"Mongolic" refers unambiguously to the language family. "Mongolian languages" could mean "languages spoken in Mongolia". I've already renamed the article Mongolic languages, and the category should be renamed to match. Angr (t·c) 12:41, 4 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. "Mongolian" is the more commonly established name for the language family, and is used by databases such as Ethnologue. Also, "-ian" is used in other language family names as well, including where they could appear to ambiguously refer to an established country, e.g. "Burman", "Iranian", "Armenian", etc. language families. - Gilgamesh 13:29, 4 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
"Mongolic languages" actually gets more Google hits than "Mongolian languages" once you exclude Wikipedia from the search. What Ethnologue does is irrelevant. "Burman" and "Iranian" are unambiguous because the local languages are called "Burmese" and "Persian", and "Armenian" is only a language, not a family. Compare also The Mongolic Languages, a scholarly reference book. Searching for "Mongolian languages" on Amazon only turns up books about the Mongolian language. --Angr (t·c) 13:48, 4 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Cities with significant Arab Israeli populations

See Category talk:Cities with significant Arab Israeli populations: "If this category must stay, it should be at least be better defined. What does a significant Arab population mean? For example, Nazerat Illit was just added to that category. On what basis? According to that page, this town has only 9% Arab pupulation, which while is not zero (of course), is certainly not "significant", and in fact is lower than the Arab-Israeli percentage in the whole of Israel (20%). The small number of Arab-Israelis in Nazerat Illit is particularly glaring when you compare it to the neighboring city of Nazareth (which is mostly populated by Arab-Israelis). So we need a better definition of a significant population. Are we talking "more than 1%"? "more than 10%"? More than their share in the general population (20%)? Nyh 10:19, 10 November 2005 (UTC)" In addition, the user who initiated this category inserted a description "Cities in Israel that are chiefly Arab Israeli cities or have significant Arab Israeli populations." [1] and has placed the sub-categories Category:Haifa; Category:Jerusalem; Category:Tel Aviv into this "super-category" which does not even mention "Israel" in its Category name, only "Arab Israeli" which is clearly POV. IZAK[reply]

  • Delete for above reasons as it creates a serious pro-Arab and anti-Israel POV. IZAK 11:53, 4 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Adamant keep (see new vote further down). IZAK, you keep assuming far too much... I realized that the category is of interest to those curious about the Arab population information in Israel. I added all articles whose Israeli demographics mentioned an Arab population and did not say "with no significant Arab population". It is by no means anti-Israel, and the very implication thereof made me pause and blink in disbelief. Is Israel not, afterall, a country with Arab Israeli citizens and Arabic as an official language? They are a minority of particular importance, enough for the Central Bureau of Statistics of Israel to mention them specifically in their population and density reports. If the Israeli government expends this much effort, then why not we? Fully one-fifth of Israel's legal citizen population are Arabs, and many of them live in cities that are either largely Arab in population, or are mixed cities such as Haifa, Tel Aviv-Yafo, and Jerusalem. Anyway, IZAK, did we not already have the discussion about endeavouring to respect your fellow editors and not make assumptions about their motives? Why does it seem that time after time you suggest that I am an anti-Israel? Where did I ever once say or indicate that I was anti-Israel in any way, shape or fashion? Where do you get this from? Anyway, rename the category if you must, but it fully deserves to stay. - Gilgamesh 12:03, 4 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    • I cannot fathom how Tel Aviv fits into this category? And you have never addressed UserNyh's concerns as to what criteria to use, and now, you casually say "rename the category" which is far too flippant when dealing with such a volatile subject. This is very alarming, I think. IZAK 12:08, 4 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Gilgamesh, I can't speak for IZAK, but I for one never said that this category was "anti-Israeli". I just said it was ill-defined and uninformative. The phrase "having no significant Arab population" means that the overwhelming majority of a town's population is Jewish. The opposite of that is not "having a significant Arab population"! A more appropriate opposite would be "having a non-negligable Arab population". If you feel this category is important (and I think it's not - see the next paragraph), at least try to define it better, say, define some percentage which you call "significant". Otherwise, you'll just see edit wars in which one person thinks that a 9% Arab population in Nazerat Illit is "significant" and another person thinks it is not. Another problem I have with this category even if it was not created for that reason, to many readers of the articles involved it may sound racists. As if the "city with significant Arab population" is supposed to somehow have some negative impact on this city. Imagine American cities being labled as whether or not they "have a significant black population" - I think to most Americans, this would sound odd. So, what does "having a significant Arab population" do to a city? Why is it more important to mention that then "having a significant immigrent population", "having a significant Christian population", "having a significant gay population", "having a significant English-sepaking population", or who knows what? The "demography" section of each city should mention all these demographic facts, but my feeling is that that is enough, and we don't need demophics-based categories. Anyway, I vote DELETE unless Gilgamesh better defines this category (what "significant" means) in a way that sounds useful to readers. Nyh 12:29, 4 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    • Or how about Category:Arab cities with prior significant Jewish populations? It would work nicely with the article on Jewish exodus from Arab lands very well indeed. IZAK 12:35, 4 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
      • Sure, why not? I'd be very interested in that. I understand that Hebron had a very important Jewish community before a serious pogrom in the 1920s, and so did Baghdad, Cairo, Tripoli, Sana'a... Actually, yeah, let's do that! I really like that idea. ^_^ - Gilgamesh 13:22, 4 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    • To be honest I had never thought about the potential racist component. I never thought a city as anyhow negative for having an Arab population. On the contrary, I think the cultural variety makes it interesting and that much more worthy of study. I suppose the category can be renamed to something like "Arab cities in Israel" or even split into two categories—the other being "Mixed cities in Israel", as these cities in particular (Haifa, Akko, Yafo, Lod, Ramla, etc.) have very fascinating histories. - Gilgamesh 13:22, 4 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete it seems discriminatory to me. Why just the Israeli Arabs? Why are they being singled out - what about the Druze or the Jews? What is important is that they are all Israeli citizens and singling out one of the many ethnic/religious groups seems like trying to make a point. Wikipedia is not a soapbox. Izehar 12:41, 4 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Abstain and gather concensus on the appropriate way to categorize Arab Israeli culture and statistics (changed vote yet again, see further down) - Gilgamesh 13:25, 4 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. I feel sorry that I've been called over by IZAK, but considering the content and the definition, I do agree. "Significant" is inherantly too vague. We talk of Israeli Arab cities (Umm El Fahm; Abu Gosh; Nazareth) and of mixed cities (Haifa; Akko). [It seems inappropriate that Tel Aviv be subcategorised here, but that is a slightly different question. Haifa and Jerusalem do have significant Arab populations, IMO.] But significant is not descriptive here and I consider the contents of this cateogry either better placed into more descriptively-named categories, or explained clearly by a list associated with the Israeli Arab article. A problem with the use of categories is that an article's membership within that category cannot be qualified; it is absolute.
  • Delete. as per nominator. --Eliezer | £€åV€ m€ å m€§§åg€ 14:27, 4 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. Criteria for inclusion aren't defined anywhere. "Cities in Israel that are chiefly Arab Israeli cities or have significant Arab Israeli populations." doesn't count. Tomertalk 15:45, 4 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. Confusing, and kinda pointless, as just about all Israeli cities have an Arab population of some size, or did in the past. Might as well just tag them all. This is sort of like - "American Cities with significant African American populations": provocative without being informative. --Woggly 16:43, 4 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete not a useful or constructive category. Klonimus 16:49, 4 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Kyiv city to Category:Kiev city

I have no personal opinion on this controversial matter, but it is clear that after great discussion a preference was established to use Kiev for the timebeing. The main article and the two subcategories both do so. I have no objection to them all being changed one day, but for now I would like the category to agree to the article. Rhollenton 03:35, 4 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Eagle Scout users

I inadvertently created a category with the wrong name while making an edit.


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