Talk:Cascadia Cup
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2009 Cup Winners
Cup was awarded to the Timbers on August 6th [1] Btaholla (talk) 03:56, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
![[1]](http://timbers.soccercityusa.com/van080609-26.jpg){kind=link}
I have included the matches with the Sounders in the standings, as per the guidelines of the competition. Some users have engaged in an edit war to undo the addition of this information. I have included the necessary citations. Socceraficionado (talk) 05:12, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
The information you are updating is incorrect and should be removed as such. This cup was officially awarded to the Portland Timbers on August 6, 2009, as per the rules of the competition. The games the Sounders played against the other teams were not recognized (one was a U.S. Open Cup game, which would not have counted even if all three teams were in the same league). [1][2][3] SportingFlyer (talk) 09:15, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
The Cascadia Cup is not part of MLS Fan Cups. When 2011 rolls around and the Timbers and Whitecaps join MLS, the cup will transition from a United Soccer Leagues Fan Derby to an MLS Fan Cup. Should this continue to be vandalized in this manner, you will be reported and following User:Socceraficionado's warning, will be swiftly dealt with.
News articles showing the competition is between the Whitecaps and Timbers while the sounders are in a different league. [2]
I am not vandalizing this page. Please refrain from hyperbole and threats. The competition rules are very clear. The Cascadia Cup was created by the supporters of the Whitecaps, Sounders, and Timbers; and it involves games played among these three teams. The oregonlive.com article cites incorrect information. It states "Notes: By defeating Vancouver in two out of three games this season, the Timbers won the Cascadia Cup, a fan-based competition between Portland and Vancouver that is determined by the best head-to-head record." This is not correct. You have also removed the paragraph about the history behind the creation of the Cascadia Cup. I am re-instituting the correct version of this article.
Straight from the Cascadia Cup website: "As a part of the USL Division One schedule the teams will host games against their local rivals to count in the Cascadia Cup standings." Notice how only league matches count toward the awarding of the cup. You continue to place results from a preseason closed door match and a US open cup match in the results for the cup. As SportingFlyer has pointed out, these matches have no bearing on the Cascadia Cup.
That web site has not been updated since 2008. The supporters of all three teams decide each year how the competition will be settled. Every year there has been a schedule quirk, and this is explained in the Wikipedia article. In 2008, all three teams were in the same league, hence the competition was settled with all league matches. In 2007, only the last two games played among each team were counted. In 2009, the teams are in separate leagues, but there are still games between the teams.
Yes, the rules do change each year. However the one consistency every year is that only league matches count. Hence the reason it is in bold on the official website. Here is how the rules were defined before you began editing after the competition had already ended for this year, "Supporters of Portland and Vancouver, have continued to hold a Cup competition for 2009 and 2010. Portland and Vancouver will include all scheduled regular season USL-1 matches played between the two. Should the two clubs remain tied on points after all matches played, away goals will be used as the first tiebreaker to determine the cup winner." Furthermore, you continue to revert to references that have no reference to the Cascadia Cup at all while deleting references that do reference the Cascadia Cup.
Here is a discussion of how the cup would be awarded in 2009 [3]
The consistency you refer to was due to both teams being in the same league. That is not the case this year, hence that past consistency does not inform the context of the present situation. The quote you cite from an older version of the article does not include the Sounders supporters. The revised article does. Which references have I reverted to that have no reference to the Cascadia Cup? I see three references: 1) Lists the founding supporters of the competition; 2) Points to an article which supports the definition of the competition -- "The match also counts in the Cascadia Cup tournament played every season. The teams that play for this trophy are the Portland Timbers, Seattle Sounders, and Vancouver." -- ; and 3) Points to an article about the match between Portland and Seattle, the most high-profile of all the Cascadia Cup matches this year.
Btaholla, please stop removing references to the Sounders involvement in the Cascadia Cup.
- - 17:27, 8 August 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Socceraficionado (talk • contribs)
Yes, your 2 reference points to the 2007 competition. You however continue to use this as support to remove the reference to the 2009 cup rules as were determined by the Timbers and Whitecaps (the only two teams left in the same league) supporters groups in April. Now regarding your 3 reference, you say "Points to an article about the match between Portland and Seattle, the most high-profile of all the Cascadia Cup matches this year", however the article makes no mention of the Cascadia Cup, and you know why? It is because only league matches count toward the Cascadia Cup. Never in the history of the cup have non-league matches counted toward the Cascadia Cup competition and thus in this years rules the sounders were not included in the competition.
The rules to the competition are determined each year by the supporters of all three teams. There is no on-going rule that says only league matches count. The past is not an indicator of the present. The three teams are in different leagues this season and next, hence a different set of rules was needed once again. The revised article clearly states how the competition will be settled this year. Portland and Vancouver will count league matches, and Seattle will include other matches played against Portland and Seattle. The #2 reference points to an article from 2007, but it is not supporting a time-sensitive fact. It supports that the basis of the competition involves the teams Portland Timbers, Seattle Sounders, and Vancouver Whitecaps. The #3 reference is about the game that was played between Portland and Seattle on July 1. It is not about the Cascadia Cup.
If you think that the sounders were included in this competition, show me a news source from 2009 that includes the sounders in the 2009 Cascadia Cup competition.
"The past is not an indicator of the present." LOL. Fitting in that you keep referencing an article from the 2007 competition as your basis for the sounders inclusion in the 2009 competition.
"The three teams are in different leagues this season and next, hence a different set of rules was needed once again. The revised article clearly states how the competition will be settled this year." Again, give me a source for your revised rules. I've already linked to one from April that listed the rules for this years competition but you have deleted it. Your rules came out of nowhere after the cup had already been awarded. You've seen the pictures[4], right? Portland already has the cup.
The article from 2007 is a basis for establishing the definition of the Cascadia Cup. All three teams participate. There is no Cascadia Cup without all three teams. The picture you have linked to is not a source. I have not deleted any source of yours that indicates that the Sounders are precluded from this years competition. The notion of the competition involving only the Timbers and Whitecaps violates the very definition of the Cascadia Cup. Please refrain from vandalizing the page and removing references to the Sounders.
The Cascadia Cup is a tangible object. It has physical form, extension. It is currently in the possession of the Portland Timbers following their defeat of the Vancouver Whitecaps. (See, inter alia, Btaholla's picture, above.) You may dislike this fact, but it is a fact. You may argue that the Portland Timbers should not possess it, but they possess it. Your revisions are misleading because they misrepresent an objective, verifiable fact: the Portland Timbers have the Cascadia Cup. You seem to disagree with how the Timbers and Whitecaps supporters organized the Cascadia Cup competition this season, but that is a disagreement you need to take up with them. In the end, the only fact that matters--and the only fact that is appropriate for the page--is that the Cascadia Cup is in the possession of the Portland Timbers.
Caphaddock (talk) 20:21, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
The article can be amended to explain how the Cup came into the possession of the Timbers. That does not pertain to the results and standings of the matches that took place this year.
Also, another user going by the name SounderSuk is undoing changes, as well. Please refrain from removing references to the Sounders in this article.
You're missing the point, Socceraficionado. The standings and results you keep putting into the page are irrelevant. They had nothing to do with the decision this season to award the cup to Portland. You seem to disagree with that decision; take it up with the Portland and Vancouver supporters. Feel free to add a section addressing your concerns, but the revisions you keep making are misleading. Caphaddock (talk) 20:47, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
How are the results and standings irrelevant? These are games that were played this season as per the guidelines of the Cascadia Cup. Please stop removing references to the Sounders from this article. You will be reported. Thank you.
The results of matches involving Seattle were not counted this season in determining who won the cup. Hence, they are irrelevant to the 2009 Cascadia Cup. You appear to disagree with that decision, which is why you keep pointing to the guidelines from past seasons, but that is something you need to take up with the Portland and Vancouver supporters because they set up new guidelines for the 2009 season after Seattle went to MLS. Take your concerns up with the Portland and Vancouver supporters, but stop trying to revise history on a Wikipedia page. Caphaddock (talk) 21:07, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
That is incorrect. I am not pointing to guidelines from past seasons. The previous version of this article gave the impression that Vancouver and Portland supporters decided on their own how to handle the cup for the 2009 season. The new version includes the decision of all three groups. Please stop removing references to the Sounders.
We're obviously getting nowhere with this discussion. Accordingly, I just edited the article to be as neutral as possible and added a section called, "Controversy over the 2009 Cascadia Cup." I think we should try to be productive here. I don't have any problem with adding asterisks or noting that matches against Seattle weren't counted in the decision to award the cup to Portland, but it's frankly revisionist to insist that the Sounders actually won the cup. It would be like editing the page that lists the presidents of the United States to say that Al Gore actually won the election in 2000. We can dispute it until we're blue in the fact, but George W. Bush was elected president. Caphaddock (talk) 22:19, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
I agree. Your version does a good job presenting a larger set of information. I have made some additions. Please consult the new version and provide feedback. Thank you.
I have added notes where citations are needed. If they cannot be provided, I do not see how this section is anything but postgame whinging.
An important citation was included in prior versions, but is missing from this version. It lists the Founders Circle of supporters who funded the cup. Please include this citation at the end of the first sentence in the first paragraph. Thank you. http://goalseattle.com/CascadiaCup/supporters.htm
The score of the Timbers US Open Cup game against the Sounders was 1:2, not 0:1.
According to an open letter from the Sounders supporters on the Southsiders forums, the ruleset of the Cascadia Cup is determined by a two-thirds vote. The rules were agreed upon earlier in the season (in the first Vancouver/Portland game at Swangard) and it was clear from that point on that Vancouver and Portland would contest the cup. Among the reasons the Southsiders argued that the Cup should not be withheld for the 2009 and 2010 seasons is that Seattle did not choose to protest until the day of/day before the Cup was to be awarded. That thread can be found here: http://forum.vancouversouthsiders.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=3297 DamionOWA (talk) 08:33, 9 August 2009 (UTC)