Talk:Hen Ogledd

Celts Unassessed

	Hen Ogledd is within the scope of WikiProject Celts, a collaborative effort to improve Wikipedia's coverage of the ancient Celts and the modern day Celtic nations. If you would like to participate, you can edit this article or you can visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks or take part in the discussion. Please Join, Create, and Assess.CeltsWikipedia:WikiProject CeltsTemplate:WikiProject CeltsCelts articles
???	This article has not yet received a rating on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

Hen comes first in Welsh; this should be Yr Hen Ogledd.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.240.122.161 (talk • contribs)

But perhaps not in Brythonic? ..dave souza, talk

The term is in Welsh and Welsh is a Brythonic Language. Changing- see http://cy.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cymraeg. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.102.27.175 (talk • contribs) 00:10, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Not a reliable source and unconvincing to a non welsh speaker, but google backs it up, so moved. ..dave souza, talk 09:49, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Not to split hairs, but yr hen Ogledd is not Old Welsh. It's what Modern Welsh speakers call the region that was called gogled in Old Welsh (one d), at least in this transcription of the Gododin poem. You meant proto-Brythonic, I take it, dave souza?

I couldn't swear to this, but I thought that if hen followed the noun it meant 'ancient', whereas if it preceded the noun it just meant 'old'. Still, the only people on the web saying Gogledd hen are Wikipedia mirrors, so hen Ogledd seems better. Quartier Latin1968

20:47, 15 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The map in Skene's Four Ancient Books of Wales just says Y Gogledd. Rather more recently McQuarrie ("The Kings of Strathclyde" in Grant & Stringer, Medieval Scotland, 1993) and Koch ("The Place of Y Gododdin in the History of Scotland", Celtic Connections: Proceedings of the tenth ICCS, 1999) use only Gwŷr y Gogledd, for which there are lots of gbooks hits of varying degrees of reliability. Angus McLellan (Talk) 23:14, 15 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it used to just be called 'the North' (y Gogledd), and you can still say this if the historical context is clear. But the reason for calling it the old North is that North Wales would otherwise come to people's minds... (or just the generic North as a cardinal point). Quartier Latin1968

00:00, 16 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Shouldn't it be "Y Hen Gogledd", since "H" is a consonant?--MacRusgail 19:37, 2 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No, "h" counts as a vowel for purposes of article selection; likewise "yr haf" (the summer), "yr haul" (the sun) etc. Edricson 09:33, 6 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I noticed the welsh wikipedia has more on the Old North, and I was wondering if anyone can translate it. -G.T.N —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.193.46.64 (talk) 21:18, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Realms"

This article lists "realms" of the Old North. I was thinking that we might be more specific by having a list of kingdoms (such as Rheged and Gododdin) and a list of known major cities (Such as Dumbarton, Chalchvynyd, and Din Eitin). By the way, could we be more specific on the exact extent of the Old North? I've seen it referred to as the are between the Walls, but also as the entire area once ruled by Coel Hen. ---G.T.N. (talk) 17:23, 5 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

My additions

The realms I added were culled mostly from "Y Gododdin", though some came from other Brythonic and early Welsh poems. Also, Manau (aka Manaw) was a separate kingdom. I changed the order of which kingdom absorbed the other because Oengus I of the Picts, aka Oengus mac Fergus (of the Eoghanachta Magh Geirghinn), the King of the Picts who ruled Fortriu, was the first ruler to unify the north. The Eoghanachta were an Irish dynasty based in Munster of Ireland, and they had branches in southwest Britain as well as this one in Scotland (the Mag Geirghinn branch). As a matter of fact, Kenneth MacAlpin and his first four successors used the title "King of Picts". Constantine I was the first king to use the title "King of Alba". Natty4bumpo 0406 EDT, 22 July 2008, (UTC)

It's not a question of you "not caring if I've heard of Novant or not" - you are quite wrong to say that it is "listed" (there is no "list") in Y Gododdin. Which edition do you get that from? Would it be W. F. Skene's 19th century edition with all its many faults or some website? I have Ifor Williams's standard edition of the text, Canu Aneirin before me now; "nouant" (="nofant") is there, but is not a place name; it means "(they) stain" and refers to the staining of spears in blood. The reading of it as a place name stems from W. F. Skene and has long been disproved. Enaidmawr (talk) 22:39, 25 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Check out the map which accompanies this article. Natty4bumpo 1844 EDT, 24 Juyl 2008 (UTC)

Uh, so what is the point of flooding the page (you've bumped it from about 5 to 43 kb and some people's browsers may not cope with that) with all the above just to try and prove your point? And you're still wrong. The text you quote is presumably Skene's 19th century translation (you don't give a source...) and the map of Yr Hen Ogledd is just as antiquated and unreliable. Sorry, but you are wrong. You should use reliable modern sources (and QUOTE them). Enaidmawr (talk) 22:53, 25 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, so you removed the text. Good. Enaidmawr (talk) 22:55, 25 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If the map in "antiquated and unreliable", why have it? Why is this article named "Hen Ogledd", which is modern Welsh, rather than Hen Gogledd, or Y Hen Gogledd? What are the sources for Arfderydd and Calchfynydd? From the context, its obvious Arderydd is a northern place-name, but there's not suggestion that it is a kingdom; as for Calchfynydd, no one seems to agree about where that is, and in any case, the individual who bears it as a surname is from Wales, not the Old North. Re: you browser probelms--update your browser. Natty4bumpo 1915 EDT, 24 July 2008, (UTC)

Suggest you learn Welsh before lecturing a Welsh speaker and student of Middle Welsh on the correct spelling of "Yr Hen Ogledd" (ever heard of the soft mutation?). And I was not talking of my browser, merely thinking of other users, some of them on dial-up. Do you have to be so uncourteous? Enaidmawr (talk) 23:27, 25 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

John Koch's "The Place of 'Y Gododdin' in the History of Scotland" (Celtic Connections, vol 1: 200–210) has a map on p. 200, "North Britain 547–685" showing where Koch thinks the kingdoms may have been. Nouant is shown, so too, proceeding clockwise, are Aeron, Arecluta, Lleudinyawn, Guotodin, Berneich, Deur, Elmet, ?Breint (Koch's question mark), Erechwyd, Lleuenyd and Reget. There's a similar, if less detailed, map in his Celtic Culture: A Historical Encyclopedia's "Gododdin" article. For more information on the Old North, Lowe's Angels, Fools and Tyrants and Smyth's Warlords and Holy Men could be useful, and there's a modern edition of Y Gododdin edited by Koch which might be useful. Angus McLellan (Talk) 23:21, 25 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Koch is a fine scholar, but not everyone accepts his interpretations of the evidence in this and other cases; I'm sure he'd be the first to accept that. In the case of Novant I'd say he was in a minority of one (unless somebody else has followed him on that). Some of his place-names given above are rather "unconventional" too. You'll see the problem with the barely-attested amongst these place-mames (I don't mean Gododdin itself, Rheged, and others). Take "?Breint" - could just as easily be read breint=braint, a legal term related to privilege and status (too complicated to go into in detail here). Thanks for this though. Enaidmawr (talk) 23:34, 25 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You started the discourtesy; if you don't want to receive it, don't dish it out. You never answered my questions above about Arfderydd and Calchfynydd. And if Koch listed "Nouant" he's not a "minroity of one" since Skene also lists it. Natty4bumpo 1955, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

"You never answered my questions above about Arfderydd and Calchfynydd". Irrevelant to what I actually said and the fact you fail to give a reference for your Gododdin quote, but you might like to now that I moved "Kingdom of Calchfynyd" (sic) to Calchfynydd and have tried to make the ambiguity of the place's status clear in the article (not started by me). As for the truly antiquated and unreliable map (see also the section below), you should have a good look at it: Calchfynydd (spelling's slightly different) is shown on it as a town or settlement! That's how unreliable this unsourced map is. (Re: Arfderydd. It's the site of a battle; did I claim it was a kingdom or even mention it?). As for Koch, he is entitled to his opinion but his claim hangs on the reading of one word in a single line of text and his his resuscitation of Skene's claim is controversial (Koch would readily accept that was the case). This list of Hen Ogledd place-names should be divided into - 1.) Attested kingdoms and sub-kingdoms (e.g. Rheged, Gododdin), whose existence is widely accepted; 2.) Possible kingdoms and subkingdoms, whose existence/status is uncertain (e.g. "Novant", "Calchfynydd"); 3.) Places mentioned in the texts which are almost certainly geographical features/areas/towns or forts etc rather than kingdoms (e.g. Arfderydd). That seems to me to be a sensible way forward. Enaidmawr (talk) 16:59, 26 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that the map, fact-wise, is shoddy (though it does look nice), especially considering its source (de Situ Albanie). I think that's a very good idea about dividing up the places named into staggered categories. That way we can throw in things like Camlann, which many writers have posited is in the North, and some of the larger towns, such as Din Paladur (Traprain Law), Din Guardi (Bamburgh), and Caer Ligualid (Carlisle). We could also mention the theory that the North between the Walls was the rarely mentioned province of Valentia in the last days of Roman imperial presence. Natty4bumpo, 1402 EDT, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Erasing request for reference

I've replaced the {{reference needed}} tag for Dunoting: a request for reference is legitimate, and the proper thing to do is to provide a reference that others can verify. It seems high-handed and arbitrary to simply erase it, though that probably wasn't the intent. Best is to use an in-line citation, so that it becomes part of the article (assuming that it isn't successfully challenged). If you have a reference but aren't sure how to fit it in, enter the info on this talk page, and one of us can help you.

As for the map, it looks like someone's old addition. According to its description, it was copied from this sacred texts webpage, and the uploader claims it is out of copyright. The map is indeed there, but I don't yet have reason to believe that it is free of Wikipedia's restrictions, and someone may properly ask that it be deleted. I expect that will happen unless someone provides a legitimate provenance in a big hurry. The same applies to the genealogy image, which claims free-of-copyright but does not cite the source or provide reason to believe it can be used.

As for the accuracy of the map: maps are as much subject to validity and verification criteria as article texts, and do not have validity just because they are images. As for this one, it looks like an interesting old map, but lacks credibility until someone provides it. By the way, if you believe the map, then you believe that Reged is in the Scottish Highlands (because that's where the map places it).

I also think that the list is suspect, but that will surely work itself out in the fullness of time. Here's hoping for a profitable and educational development of the topic. Regards, Notuncurious (talk) 02:28, 26 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You should take a better look at the map; there's no Scottish Highlands there, in fact there's not much north of the Firths. As for Dunoting: :http://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingListsBritain/BritainDunoting.htm

http://br.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunoting

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dent_(Lonsdale): Mentions that the name Dent was derived from :Dunoting

http://www.earlybritishkingdoms.com/kingdoms/496.html (Mention of Dunoting at c. 520)

http://www.britannia.com/bios/ebk/deinigpn.html (Natty4bumpo) 2300 EDT, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, Natty4bumpo. I'll insert 3 of your references in the article as citations (they are still subject to challenge, but that's for another time), and pull the citation challenge. I have some real-life matters to deal with, so likely tomorrow, but it will happen by then, please be a little patient. When I get them in, have a look at the source code. The 2 wikipedia articles can't be used (can't use wikipedia as a reference in wikipedia, either English-language or otherwise). However, you can look up their references and citations, and you can use them.

The article map shows "Reged or Murfife" immediately east of Loch Lomond, on both sides of the River Endrick, with the upper River Forth and Loch Ard in their territory, eastward past the River Teith, and north of Allan Water. This is the southernmost Highlands. It may be interesting to note that this is precisely where a 1757 forgery placed a people of Brythonic origin. The forgery (De Situ Britanniae) was virtually the only source of information on ancient Scotland and was used as a reference by many historians, infecting their work with fictional peoples and places. But that, too, is for another time. Regards, Notuncurious (talk) 03:48, 26 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Done.

Second request: I see that you again erased the citation request from the article, without providing a reference and with no explanation in the edit summary. Whatever was your intent, it looks bad, and it is frowned upon. Again, please do not do it. Regards, Notuncurious (talk) 04:33, 26 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Argyll in the upper right corner is considered the Highlands; the area you mention is not. The Highlands begin north and west of the Mounth (Grampian Mountains), not at the Firths. The east shore of Loch Lomond, what used to be Dumbartonshire, is at the foot of the Highlands but is not part of it.

"...is frowned upon"...by whom?

Articles in an encyclopedia should not have inserts like that nor are footnotes like those in a typical college or academic paper, at least not in any encyclopedia I've ever seen, certainly not in Britannica, for example. It looks sloppy. I can live with footnotes like the ones you have in now, but inserting "needs reference" into the actual text is, again, sloppy, cumbersome, and detracts from the overall flow. Yes, I've seen the same thing in other Wiki articles, but it looks sloppy and more like a passive-aggressive rhetorical tactic than an attempt to request a clarification If a point in an article calls for clarification, doing it like a footnote would look more professional.

I know Wikipedia can't reference Wikipedia, which is why I made the ref's here instead of in the article. My point in making them here, however, was consistency.

I agree about the unreliability of the de Situ Albanie; that is the source for the erroneous "seven kindgoms" notion.

Indentation in discussions on talk pages should be the same for each person every time they speak, not an ever-increasing indentation so that eventually every line consists of no more than a single word. (Natty4bumpo) 0955 EDT, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

What does this mean?

"Mae enw'r ddinas yn dod o'r Frythoneg Din Eidyn, sef Caer Eidyn." (Natty4bumpo) 1413 EDT, 26 July 2008 —Preceding undated comment was added at 18:13, 26 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Additions about northern dynasties

I figured since someone else had already made a reference to Morris, his information about the partiarch of the northern dynasties "between the Walls" should be included also, especially since the Kings of Gwynedd, and later native Princes of Wales, descend from Cunedda, grandson of Paternus son of Tacitus. Regarding the intermarriage of the dynasty of Catellius Decimus which came to rule Alt Clut with the Dal Riata and the Picts of Fortriu, the first of the Gaels to rule Fortriu, though not Dal Riata itself, was Bridei mac Dargart of the Cenel Comgaill, grandson of Bili ap Nechtan of Alt Clut, who succeeded to the throne in Inverness in 696 CE.

The idea of the northern Britons was kept alive even after the merging of Strathclyde with Alba and Lothian & Dunbar into the new "Scotland" thru the title of the monarch, "King of the Scots and Britons", which the sovereign used even in the days of Alexander III, as the seal of that king attests.

P.S.: I just found out about signing with tildes; Hawkeye = Natty4bumpo, in case anyone is wondering. Hawkeye (talk) 17:59, 28 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

John Morris

No article should cite John Morris without caveat. This article needs a lot of work, and that will include downplaying the assertions of Morris and including citations to reliable sources.--Cúchullain ^t/c 22:37, 25 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

And now, after four months with no improvement, I went ahead weeding Morris out.--Cúchullain ^t/c 20:35, 30 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It appears that much of this material was re-added, and some of the cited material I added was removed in the process. I reiterate that Morris's work The Age of Arthur is not a reliable source for the history of this period, and was rejected at the time by scholars such as David Dumville. Morris' theories should not be included without caveat.--Cúchullain ^t/c 14:37, 8 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I support what Cúchullain says above and his edits. We have far too many examples of material added from unreliable and/or controversial sources to articles in the sub-Roman Britain and Celt history categories. Enaidmawr (talk) 20:07, 8 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Very interested

Perhaps this article is considered a fraud or hoax, but I see nothing wrong, only good work here. So, keep up with it please. A Merry Old Soul (talk) 16:28, 9 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]