Talk:Campaign for Homosexual Equality

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I see there's no disucssion here, so I'm just letting whoever know that I jiggled some words around and created some section headings, re-ordered by time-line, and suggseted a possible merge of material into here on the 1974 rally. Mish (talk) 14:20, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

I have incorporated the text from the other article. I will delete the text there and point it to here in a few days. Mish (talk) 14:34, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

National Friend

Apparently no longer in existence or a registered charity. Shall hunt details and amend page appropriately. Kay Dekker (talk) 19:51, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Some are dotted about still using the name, not many.

Recent edits.

CHE is a small band of men these days, nothing like a significant group and it is not representative of the gay community as a whole, just its remaining membership. For those abroad the original article seems to have been wrote by CHE, the group has been down to two or three men for years. Ask any gay man in the UK who CHE is and most won't know, but they know Stonewall and Outrage. The article gives the wrong impression to people outside the UK that CHE are a major player, they have not been for around 25 years.

This is an encyclopedia, it doesn't matter what you think about CHE, it existed and still exists, and where possible this article reflects what is known about it from WP:RS. Contrary to your assertions, there is no evidence it no longer functions, and I'm not clear how you would know how many members it has - as membership lists would be data protected. It has more than 2-3 men as executive members alone, so clearly you are wrong there. CHE is significant historically, and maybe people under 30 don't know who they are, there are a lot of people over 30 who do - I guess it depends who and where you ask the question. Mish (talk) 10:56, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

CHE charge a memership fee of £25 per year, it is not therefore a free organisation, detail from its website, the organisation does not have any democratic mandate to represent the wider gay community outside its own membership.

The article does not state that it has a democratic mandate to speak for the gay and lesbian community (and what activist organisation has any mandate to represent anybody apart from its members?). This is not the place to grind axes against an organisation. Stating this would be WP:OR based on WP:SYNTH. Do you have a WP:RS that states what you want to say? Mish (talk) 17:12, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

You have stated the point I added to the article, this was reverted, that CHE represents its membership, a point that should be in the article, I have seen other groups like Stonewall directly consult with the wider gay community to support its campaigns, not CHE who's main core act unilaterally. As for axes to grind why would there be? It is a huge insult and large assumption there. Wikipedia is supposed to be factual not a promoter of assumptions. CHE are a members organisation and represent its own membership. What is the big issue in adding this back to the article along with the citations to show that as a fact? The issue to me in not adding it is that the article is without this giving the impression that this group does represent a wider range of gay men than it does. The bias is in allowing that assumption.

Please listen to what I say. The problem is that you do not have a WP:RS for this, it is your opinion. It may be true, but the thing is, without a source that states this, it is WP:OR based an WP:SYNTH. You did not provide a citation to show this, what there is citation for is still there (I don't know specifically why the other editor removed the text about the achievements of Outrage! and Stonewall, but I would support those on the basis that they are off-topic, as this is about CHE, not other organisations and how well they have done since CHE's hay-day. Mish (talk) 23:03, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

MishMich I do not think you objective or editing in the spitit of wikipedia in this article, the article is about a members organisation that serves England and Wales, the article itself states the Scottish have their own organisation, the group is based in North West England. The openning statement will be entirely wrong if it states it is a UK organisation. Please leave the wikipedia entry to state the fact as detailed in the groups constitution. It is based in the North West of England. If you consider not mentioning that this is a members organisation until later in the write up then you should have changed the position of the wording not deleted the statement, it was added with two citations to the facts. I really cannot see why you keep editing out anything in this that mentions is is a members organisation, the groups constituion makes it clear. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.131.200.45 (talk) 16:12, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Apart from the grammar, in talking about history it is misleading to project back in time what the literature says about today - so I have broken this up into two sentences. I reverted the lot because as a whole it was inaccurate - and really, if you want to make these insertions, you should do the work of correcting them, not me. It was one of the earliest in the UK, and it still is one of the oldest in the UK, and it always will be one of the oldest in the UK. That is history. What it is now is irrelevant - Scotland was part of the UK, and still is, as is Northern Ireland, England and Wales, even if they weren't, and just because it only covers England and Wales, that does not mean it was not one of the earliest in the UK. So, it is based in the North West? That just means it is based in the North West, if it covers England and Wales, it covers England and Wales as well as the North West - not just the North West. If the sources change this to state it only covers the North West, then it covers the North West, but until then it covers England and Wales, regardless of where it is based. Not all such national organisations are based in London - some are based in Manchester, some in Brighton. You need to WP:AGF, and calling that into question is WP:UNCIVIL, and I could make similar comments about your edits appearing based on a hostility towards the subject of this article - we do not do that, we are guided by WP:NPOV, which is what I am trying to ensure happens here. I have no brief for this organisation, am far more sympathetic to GLF and Outrage! TBH, but this was a scrappy article full of individuals' insertions, some based on recollection and some POV, and where I could I found sources and cleaned it up into a readable article. I'm not interested in whether they are good or bad, but that they are notable, and played a significant role in the history of homosexual emancipation in this country - possibly yielding benefits precisely because they were a 'safer' alternative to the antics of GLF. I respect both. It is a pity people who have no idea what things were like before 1970 cannot do the same. These people changed the lived reality of every L&G person alive today - Stonewall and Outrage! continue that work - but without organisations like these, they would not have inherited a world where people can even think of equal opportunities or civil partnerships for LGBT people. Mish (talk) 18:50, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

MishMich On the first point the entry was a quote from the CHE constitution, the link to the citation also made that clear. On adding information to the article it is reasonable to expect someone to come along and improve it, rather than remove all edits. Collective writing is after all that’s what Wikipedia is about. You seem reluctant to see additions or changes by reverting edits even with citations. I think it is a broad statement to say oldest in UK with no citation. When something is one of the oldest the statement is so broad it could include some more recent groups, how old is old? However your edit to assert that remains. I do have to challenge you on the assertion that this is an historical article. As pointed out the CHE is a current active organisation, therefore the article should reflect that in its opening, its history should come later. My edits have been objective, stating the facts including the recent update on Liberty disassociating itself from CHE. On adding that it was not a hostile move or POV it was a fact. I had not add to the article or state the CHE are campaigning outside its own aims as this is POV and would need consensus to be added to the article. The citations are certainly available. That the disassociation is nothing to do with gay rights, but that statement would be a POV, so its never been there. All groups including CHE are created based on a legal constitution, in the document the definition of its geographic coverage and its aims are made clear and fixed in a legal framework. The constitution is the source of the facts to my edits. I do believe the article would be improved by adding the organisations stated aims, but fear as soon as I add them you will come along to edit them out again. It is for that reason I asked you to make the edit, you have reverted edits when made otherwise. May I add the aims of the group from its constitution and see the edit remain. The flow of the main article I also feel is wrong, its not in the flow of the [five w’s]. To achieve that it need to be reworked. To be clear, I have no reason to be against this or any other article about Gay and Lesbian rights. In fact I share your thoughts on promoting the knowledge of history of homosexual emancipation , but feel a Wikipedia article needs to be accurate. You have made some assumptions about my age, we do not know each other. I can comment to on the 70's you know, whether or not I was alive then. Wikipedia is not about writing new works. I could write about the Victorians but I do not have to lived in that period. You were wrong to reference WP:AGF, and WP:UNCIVIL, and WP:NPOV I feel you should read them and reflect on why you referenced them wrongly toward another Wikipedia user. I hope the next post from you will be constructive as to how to improve the article.

Legal status of CHE / aims and objetives missing.

The Campaign for Homosexual Equality, CHE for short, are a voluntary members organisation covering England and Wales, funded by membership and open to members who support its aims. CHE were formed in 1969 as the successor to the North West [Homosexual Law Reform Society]

The aims of the CHE shall be to:

promote the principle that the homosexual has an equal right to self-fulfilment and can make an equally positive contribution in our common quest for the betterment of society and the happiness of all;

fight for absolute equality at law between heterosexuals and homosexuals and campaign against all forms of legal and social discrimination against homosexuals;

campaign for improved sex education in schools in order to stop the process by which existing attitudes towards homosexuals are maintained.

ensure that the lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgendered community gains full advantage from the legislation which follows implementation of the Human Rights Act.

The CHE is represented by a group of six members who form its Executive committee who are annually elected from by its members. CHE's policies are determined at annual members conference.

http://www.campaignforhomosexualequality.org.uk/che-leaflet-2009.pdf

http://www.campaignforhomosexualequality.org.uk/history.htm

http://www.campaignforhomosexualequality.org.uk/constitution.htm

http://www.pinktriangle.org.uk/glh/221/dyson.html

The above should be in the article somewhere as this is the groups legal status and illustrates its aims and ojectives.