Jump to content

Talk:Ethnocracy

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Oth (talk | contribs) at 21:06, 20 October 2009 (South-Africa). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

WikiProject iconPolitics Start‑class Mid‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Politics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of politics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PoliticsWikipedia:WikiProject PoliticsTemplate:WikiProject Politicspolitics articles
StartThis article has been rated as Start-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
MidThis article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Redirect?

"Ethnic democracy" redirects to this page and it really shouldn't they are 2 separate theories of government. Sammy Smooha came up with the "ethnic democracy" concept to reconcile the differences between an ethnocracy and democracy for Israel. Ethnocracy replaces the demos (everyone) in democracy with ethnos (an ethnic group) meaning that it is no longer a democracy. Although i don't entirely subscribe to his view, Smooha argues that although Israel is a Jewish state, run by and for the Jewish people, it has enough democratic characteristics (independent Judiciary, periodic elections etc.) for it to still be classed as a form of democracy rather than an ethnocracy or apartheid regime. There is obviously much debate about which Israel actually is, but the fact of the matter is that they are not the same type of system. - B Cook 87.194.21.65 19:40, 28 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I entirely agree. This article originally stated that "ethnocracy" and "ethnic democracy" was the same thing. I attempted to clean up this article, but obviously we need a separate article. Martintg 01:05, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Split into Ethnic democracy completed Martintg 01:21, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Israel?

Shouldn't Israel be mentioned as well ? A clear example of an ethnocracy ! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.194.104.78 (talk • contribs) 21:33, 2 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Actually Israel is a very weak example considering the fact that Arabs hold portfolios in the government, serve in the knesset, vote and are deputy speakers in the partliament.

I think the section on Israel should be removed. Citizens of Israel have equal voting rights, and therefore Israel does not fit the definition of "ethnocracy". Just because some professor wrote a book saying otherwise doesn't justify a whole section of the article. 6SJ7 (talk) 16:38, 4 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That's your opinion. The section is well sourced and attributed. —Ashley Y 10:03, 8 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Latvia

Despite the fact that more 22% of the Latvian citizens are ethnic Russian speakers[1], not a single ethnic Russian speaker was working as a minister from the beginning 1990[2]. Only some ethnic Russian speakers were holding top level positions in the governmental institutions. The lack of loyalty is mentioned as justification for that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gandonini (talk • contribs) 14:51, 12 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Continuing the discussion about Latvia. That is not only question of citizens and non-citizens. Lets take citizens only! A lot of Russian speakers are living for centuries in Latvia. In 2009 about 22% of all the CITIZENS are Russian speakers in Latvia. In the last 19 years there was 15 Cabinets of Ministers (in each more than 10 ministers). Not a single minister was ethnic Russian speaker. Russian speakers are politically labelled as "non-loyal", without any legal basis. Only some Russian speakers (like Aleksejs Losutovs) was working in the whole governmental sector at the top positions (yet there are no statistics about that). So, Russian speakers are heavily underrepresented. I am not putting references to the secondary source of information, but to the primary sources, like statistics. --Gandonini (talk) 15:32, 12 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]


Malaysia

Malaysia is dominated by the ethnic Malay group which is only 50% of the population while Chinese and Indian minorities suffer official discrimination under the 'Malays first' policies that were enacted in1 1965. It should be included.Seth J. Frantzman (talk) 08:40, 3 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Latvia

Please explain, which sources have defined Latvia as ethnocracy. I'm afraid a Communist Party newspaper is not enough. Constanz - Talk 10:53, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You must be joking. Since when BBC is communist newspaper? Quoting: Russian should be an official language with equal rights, just as Swedish is in Finland (for just 6% of the population). `'mikka 21:38, 6 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Inclusion of Latvia in this article renders the article noncompliant and should be tagged as such. A large proportion of non-citizens is not evidence of an ethnocracy. Note that around 10% of those living in Latvia before 1940 were of Russian ethnicity and are automatically Latvian citizens. At the fall of the Soviet Union there was ambiguity in the citizenship of post war immigrants. Were they Russian citizens or were they Latvian citizens? Rather than impose blanket Latvian citizenship upon people who may not necessarily want it, Latvia put in place a naturalisation scheme and left the choice to these people. A significant proportion have opted for Russian citizenship and returned to Russia during the 1990's. As of 1006, over 50% of ethnic Russian permenant residents in Latvia have chosen to become Latvian citizens, while some 10% have opted for Russian citizenship retaining their right to permanent residency in Latvia. Many of those remaining non-citizens choose to remain so for reasons other than any imagined legal impediments. For example non-citizenship allows high school graduates, who are exempted from the language exam requirement, to avoid conscription into the Latvian Army. However the process of integration is ongoing, with non-citizenship being reduced from 40% to 20% in the last ten years. [1]. Martintg 22:30, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Please keep in mind that the term "ethnocracy" is a political insult rather than a strict term. If someone argues that Latvia has features of ethnocracy, this fact deserves mentioning, if referenced, communists, Putin, or not. Further, as far as I understand, ethnic Latvians are about 60% of the population. Please tell me what percentage of ethnic Latvians is there in Latvian government? `'mikka 21:38, 6 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Over 50% of ethnic Russians are now in fact Latvian citizens. That there aren't more ethnic Russians in parliament is more a function voter apathy than any legal impediment to representation Martintg 08:52, 8 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I would also like to notice that Latvians and Livonians have a preferential status with respect to the citizenship law: they are among categories granted citizenship automatically. `'mikka 21:49, 6 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ethnic Russians and their decendants who were residents of Latvia pre-1940 were also given preferrential treatment, they were also granted citizenship automatically. They represent around 10% of the entire population. Martintg 08:52, 8 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding Soviet occupation. The citizenship law specifically denies citizenship for those who took active part in implementation of Soviet power. And this part is sufficient to right the wrong. But wholesale denial of rights to 50% of population, indiscriminately punishing each and every migrant sucks, colleagues, badly. `'mikka 21:57, 6 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think it has anything to do with "punishment", but rather it has to do with legal ambiguity. They were all citizens of the Soviet Union, but the Soviet Union is defunct. So do they want to be Russian citizens or Latvian citizens? Well over 50% of migrants have decided to become Latvian citizens, around 10% decided to become Russian citizens. The remaining 20% of Latvian resident ethnic Russians haven't decided yet. Note that a recent resolution of the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe in November 2006 opines: The Assembly is of the opinion that, regardless of the reasons for which one state was succeeded by another, the principle to be respected is that of free choice in respect of their new citizenship for the nationals of the predecessor state. The resolution goes further and concedes: The Assembly considers that the naturalisation regulations adopted in Latvia do not raise insuperable obstacles to the acquisition of Latvian nationality and that the applicable procedure does not entail any requirements that are excessive or contrary to existing European standards. [2]. So there isn't any real barrier to Latvian citizenship for ethnic Russian non-citizens, other than the attitude of these ethnic Russians themselves Martintg 09:46, 8 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

TO:Mikka - tell me, you dislike the idea that one has to have at least some knowledge of state language in order to get citizenship. In which EU state is it otherwise? Or can you immediately become a Russian citizen, in case you don't speak a word Russian?? Could it be otherwise? Latvia's and Estonia's rules are liberal, anyway: Boris Meissner, Die russische Politik gegenüber der baltischen Region als Prüfstein für das Verhältnis Russlands zu Europa -- in Die Aussenpolitik der baltischen Staaten und die internationalen Beziehungen im Ostseeraum, Hamburg:Bibliotheka Baltica, 1994, S.466-504.Constanz - Talk 19:15, 8 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Removed Latvia from article, for the reasons outlined above. Including Latvia in this article because "ethnocracy" is a political insult rather than a strict term, as Mikka claims above, is un-encyclopedic. Martintg 21:52, 25 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The primary source cited in the article defines ethnocracy in [3] thus:

Ethnocracy is a political regime which, in contrast to democracy, is instituted on the basis of qualified rights to citizenship, and with ethnic affiliation (defined in terms of race, descent, religion, or language) as the distinguishing principle.

Latvian laws on citizenship do not qualify the "right to citizenship" based on such an ethnic affiliation. Thus, Latvia's inclusion in the article is obviously improper. I will remove Latvia. Digwuren 14:55, 18 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Petri Krohn has reverted my removal, and not explained it on this talk page. I will remove it again, based on the same deliberations explained above. Digwuren 16:40, 18 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

As you are one of the chief proponents of an ethn what ever you want to call it, your evaluation on what should be included and what should not cannot be seen as unbiased. -- Petri Krohn 17:06, 18 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
P.S. I admit that there is a problem in including Latvia without including Estonia. -- Petri Krohn 17:06, 18 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Removed Latvia. If you make such claims please back up it with references first. And second check what democratically elected governement means. And check the ethnicity of electors. And also check the the ethnicity of candidates. This is becoming plain stupid. Suva 17:46, 18 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Petri Krohn subsequently again reverted my second removal, and as can be seen above, did not offer substantial explanation for the reversal. Interestingly, while restoring disputed material, he dishonestly neglected to reinstate the disputeabout tag.

My position stands. However, Suva has this time removed the improperly added section on Latvia already. Digwuren 19:11, 18 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I am sorry for the tag, I should have taken the effort to restore it. The reason it was removed, was that I only reverted the first of your two edits. The undo function managed to mess things up, it should have failed as an edit conflict. -- Petri Krohn 23:00, 18 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Petri Krohn subsequently reverted for third time removal of Latvia, this time by Suva, without duly explaining this action. Digwuren 23:22, 18 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have reverted that reversal. Petri Krohn, please do not continue this edit war. Without appropriate sources, your WP:POV assertions are bound to be considered WP:OR, and thus contradict official Wikipedia policy. Digwuren 23:28, 18 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have added a reliable source that describes Latvia and Estonia as "ethnic democracies". -- Petri Krohn 23:46, 24 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I have reviewed your sources and reverted the addition.
Specifically, out of all the sources you added, this one is the only one supporting the idea that Latvia and Estonia "can be described" as "ethnic democracies". However, it is not a WP:RS, even though it appears to be a notable source. Digwuren 23:56, 24 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Petri Krohn readded the claims, this time along with a misleading dispute tag. I reverted again, and issued the appropriate warning. Digwuren 02:04, 25 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Would not it better if we would state that some authors (refs) refer to Latvia as an ethnic democracy because of this and that. While others (refs) consider these allegations wrong because of this that. That way we would save WP:NPOV of the article witout censoring the content? Alex Bakharev 02:56, 25 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It could work. Can you propose a draft? Digwuren 03:23, 25 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The article is a mess. It confuses Ethnocracy with Ethnic Democracy. The term Ethnic Democracy was originally coined by Professor Sammy Smooha from the University of Haifa, Israel. He defines Ethnic Democracy as a political system that combines the extension of democratic rights for all with the institutionalized dominance of a single ethnic group. He goes on to say that in his view, while Israel is an ethnic democracy, Estonia and Latvia are currently not. In fact many consider these two countries to be civic democracies since, for example, the granting of citizenship is not determined by ethnicity and there is a policy of integration. See Mark A. Jubulis, Nationalism and Democratic Transition. The Politics of Citizenship and Language in Post-Soviet Latvia (Lanham, New York and Oxford: University Press of America, 2001), pp. 201–208. Martintg 03:41, 25 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I have been bold and put a draft in the article. The anti-ethnocratic part of the argument is weak and badly references but I am confident you could expand and strengthen it Alex Bakharev 03:52, 27 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
This is better, although still considerably NPOV. Thank you; I'll try to improve it in the future. Digwuren 10:15, 27 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I've read your draft, but you seemed to have missed the gist of the issue, which is that this article claims that Latvia is an Ethnic Democracy citing the large number of non-citizens as evidence. The issue is that Professor Smooha, who originally defined the term Ethnic Democracy, himself stated that Latvia's large number of non-citizens is evidence that Latvia is not an Ethnic Democracy. This article is a factual contradiction. Martintg 10:27, 27 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I've tried to improve that section a bit, however, it still fails to mention several key factors and figures - for example, that out of 18% w/o Estonian citizenship, almost half (8% of total) are citizens of Russian Federation; that language courses and exams are free (first sponsored by Estonia and foreign funds, latter by Estonian government). Also, mixing both Estonia and Latvia under same heading seems a bit awkward. DLX 15:28, 27 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I have reworked it somewhat, too. I didn't include much new information; for example, Prof. Smooha's position is yet to be included. Digwuren 15:56, 27 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Petri Krohn reverted all my edits in one fell swoop, attempted to masquerade this reversal as a "restoration", and put these mysterious lines into the article:
<!-- Argument - If you disagree, please contribute to the "counterargument section below. -->
<!-- Counterargument - Nationalists, feel free to edit below this line -->
I have reverted, and express my disagreement to this blatant attempt at establishing "control zones" and doing "intra-article WP:POVFORK". The insult I'll just call short-sighted. Digwuren 19:03, 27 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Subsequently, he proceeded to issue a bogus 3RR warning to me. Digwuren 19:11, 27 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
There is an argument and an counterargument. These can both be presented in separate paragraphs. There is no need to include both sides of the issue in every sentence. Splitting the views into different sections is not "intra-article WP:POVFORK", it is simply the way Wikipedia achives WP:NPOV. -- Petri Krohn 19:19, 27 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Another attempt to reintroduce the same unconstructive split. I reverted. Digwuren 19:22, 27 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The crux of the dispute appears to be that some scholars believe that high number of non-citizen residents means ethnocracy while others believe that lack of ethnic criteria in laws means no ethnocracy. If it can be referenced as such, it should be explained in such a simple manner. Digwuren 15:58, 27 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Language affiliation

It seems to me that a good deal of confusion regarding the concept is over what 'ethnic affiliation defined in terms of language' actually means. My understanding is that Butenschøn's criterion is based on the primary language of a person. However, a lot of the discussion above involves ability to communicate instead. The former can reasonably be construed as an indicator of affiliation; the latter certainly not. Digwuren 14:58, 18 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Some authors

There were six references next to "Some authors" in the section on Latvia. Four of them were newspaper articles, apparently from a previous incarnation of the section, and thus do not really qualify under the customary academic sense of "some authors". I moved them here for possible later usage:

Serbia

I think including Serbia on the basis of article written in 1996 in US publication (in the same time when US had been involved in direct military action against Serbs in B&H) is an insane example of POV. Besides, most of paragraph's content about Albanian ethnic parties not allowed in elections and Serbia having low index of human rights is simply irrelevant. I am removing this paragraph and inviting all interested wikipedians to discuss. 206.186.8.130 13:17, 14 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

South Africa

The section on South Africa is quite dated (1985 or so) and talks about "the conflict in South Africa" during Apartheid as if it is an ongoing event. I feel that this section should either be edited to indicate that this was a past proposal, removed entirely, or changed to show that Apartheid was a form of ethnocracy. Pjones (talk) 16:47, 28 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Inclusion of Latvia, again

Based on the discussion above (which has not even been archived to a separate page yet), I oppose inclusion of Latvia in this article. Classification issues are particularly tricky, requiring widespread consensus among the relevant scholars -- and it's clear that there is no such consensus here. It even appears that some of the relevant POVs are non-notable, but if they weren't, they should be discussed in other pages. ΔιγουρενΕμπρος! 08:17, 7 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Latvia is already discussed in Ethnic democracy, which discusses a wide range of scholarly opinions ranging from Civic democracy to Ethnic democracy. --Martintg (talk) 13:50, 7 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Inclusion of Latvia and Estonia, once again

Two sources for Estonia [4], [5] don't mention ethnocracy at all. First speaks of alleged ethnic democracy in Estonia and Latvia - and for some reason, a very strong refutation of the claims in the same newsletter is not mentioned at all. The second document from Amnesty does not mention ethnocracy as well.

The source about Latvia [6] seems to be an opinion piece. I have no idea if the source is notable or not, I think someone from Latvia can be a judge of that.

Both Estonia and Latvia have a section in ethnic democracy. Unless some actual source is dedicated (not just mentioning) to describing Estonia and Latvia as ethnocracies can be found, including those countries to Ethnocracy is an original research. It seems to come from ethnic prejudices and/or hatred towards those countries.

--Sander Säde 11:59, 18 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
There is a span of opinion backed by academic sources, ranging from civic democracy, through ethnic democracy to ethnocracy, and this is discussed in a neutral way in Ethnic_democracy#Latvia_and_Estonia, which includes Oren Yiftachel's opinion. Should we also insert Estonia and Latvia into the article Civic democracy too? Ethnic democracy was considered the middle ground and the most appropriate place for treatment given the range of opinions. --Martintg (talk) 00:56, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]


South-Africa

I understand it's probably not as urgent as covering the Estonia's current inhuman regime, but the section on South Africa doesn't make any sense. Oth (talk) 21:06, 20 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  1. ^ Central Statistical Office, http://www.csb.gov.lv
  2. ^ History of the Cabinet of Ministers, http://www.mk.gov.lv/en/mk/vesture/
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Ethnocracy&oldid=321073224"