Talk:Negroid

Intermediate groups considered caucasoids, but exhibiting obvious negroid traits

http://www.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0009/feature3/zoom3.html (Nepal)

Picture of the skull needs to be updated

That picture is not a typical picture of a negroid skull, it is exaggerated to a non-typical extremity of human possibility. I do not find it to be helpful in the article and reinforces stereotypes. I will change it when possible.

It's from the "Western Kentucky University forensic anthropology" web-site, do you have a PHD? --Agurzil 23:31, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Some others are at [1]. --JWB 22:42, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

This seems to be a fairly standard representation of the so-called "Negroid phenotype." JWB, thanks, but your link provides an African-American skull, which is not the same as a "typical Negroid skull," which is less likely to be affected by miscegenation over time. This rendering is a classic representation of an Africanoid skull (black, unmixed, unmiscegenated). Oddly, the insertion of "Sub-Saharan Africa" into the text of the article is most certainly inaccurate in that it is unecessarily limiting and seemingly intentionally misleading. Nilotic peoples are also "Negroid," with identicial facio-cranial characteristics to those illustrated in the rendering -- and they inhabit, as is clear by their name, the Nile Valley region, which includes Egypt, Somalia, Sudan, Kenya, Uganda, Eritrea, etc. deeceevoice 13:42, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Hamitic does not exist

The Hamitic "type" does not exist. Even here in Wikipedia, when one goes (linked) to the Hamitic page from which the earlier edit had referenced, the content clearly explains the dated, useless, and perjorativeness of the Hamitic myth. To use that as a reference to clarify the touchy issue of seperating West Africans from East Africans by implying that the West Africans are truely negroid, and the East Africans are "Hamitic" (i.e. not really black, just Caucasoids with a tan) is an attempt to reinforce racist views that the culture of East Africa had to come from Caucasoids and not Negroid people.

Removal of relevant content restored

It shows more bias to leave the coon reference to Negroid skulls with non-negroid hair types, yet remove the reference to the Rana Tharu, who exhibit very negroid tendecies, and to also add in an attempt to de-black-ify (or de-negroid-ify) the East Africans who have a cultural legacy. Wikipedia is not a place where early 20th century racial hierarchies are to be reinforced.

And, by implication, other Africans do not have a cultural legacy? Idiot. *x* deeceevoice 21:02, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

Validity of human races

This is discussed in depth at Validity of human races from various POV, and it would be better to link to that article than starting another discussion of it here, which would probably lead to repetition of POV disputes.

File:Skullneg.gif

File:Skullcauc.gif

This picture (to the left) is highly degrading to blacks, and incorrect. Its basic features are grossly exaggerated to resemble some sort of pre-human skull (ex. cro-magum), or some sort of ape like animal. Its purpose is clearly to show that blacks (or 'Negroids') are either inferior or not as intelligent nor genetically developed as whites (or 'Caucasoids'). This fact is clearly marked when we are shown the example of a "Caucasoid Skull" (to the right) which is complete in its basic human features.

The universally academically recognized truth is that there is no such thing as a "Negroid Skull" as opposed to a "Caucasoid Skull". All humans have one basic skull. "Caucasoid" and "Negroid" are not in any way based on scientific fact, even the term "race" is just a mere cultural construct.

This image is racist, degrading, insulting, and most importantly it is misleading and downright false. It should be deleted from this article.

There's nothing exaggerated about this skull; it is typical of certain Africoid populations -- the sloping cranium, the pronounced dolichocephalism and alveolar prognathism. Is race as a concept bull? Yep. But since this article addresses the term, a skull of the classic "Negroid" phenotype is entirely appropriate here. The article already makes a point to say (because I wrote that part) that the phenotype is not standard across all ethnicities of blacks. What do you mean the "Caucasoid" skull is "complete in its human features," as opposed to the "Negroid" specimen? It seems to me that the association with an ape is entirely yours. The illustration is not degrading in any sense; for what it is, it is entirely accurate. deeceevoice 20:57, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

The features that are being decribed as typical "Negroid" features are more in line with that of a evolutionary inferior Homo erectus skull (side view) or even a Chimpanzee skull (side view). One only needs to compare the two above pictures to see the different in skulls and how the "Negroid" is being shown to be less developed. All humans have one basic skull shape, that of a Homo sapiens skull (side view). (edit by User:Mesfin)

The pictures do not provide source to be checked (only Western Kentucky University, forensic antropology). I coudn't find these pictures there, though they may be on internal network.

As search for the term returns company selling osteological specimens (http://www.skullsunlimited.com/). They provide photos (low and high resolution) of different skulls, together with description. Among them are:

1. Human African Negroid Skull: [2]
2. Human European Caucasian Skull: [3]

Perhaps the images currently here would be better removed as unverified and possibly replaced with link to the pictures mentioned above. Pavel Vozenilek 22:45, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

A response: cut the crap

I'm an African-American, and I find the objections to the illustration completely over-the-top. The illustration accurately depicts the characteristics of the classic -- not universal -- "Negroid" phenotype. Dolichocephalic skulls are a classic feature of the Africoid phenotype.

Are there similarities between the skulls of the classic Africoid/Negroid phenotype and certain simians/primates? Insofar as, in some instances, a pronounced prognathism and a dolichocephalic skull -- yes, absolutely. And the same can be said of flattened, rounded European skulls with regard to other simian/primate species. So what? The fact that such similarities in the case of Africoid populations have been used in the past to dehumanize and slander black folks has nothing to do with objective observation. The fact is the illustration is dead-on accurate -- not as a representation of all Africoid populations -- but as an illustration of the phenotypical features which most distinctively differentiate fundamentally unmiscegenated Africoid populations from other human populations.

The only Caucasians (other than the East Indian Veddoid group, which incorrectly and calculatingly has been classified as "Caucasian", though they're as black Africoid as the Australoids and Nilotics) known as a group to have dolichocephalic skulls are Nordics. The classic Caucasian skull would not apply to them in all respects, either; but taken collectively and regarded generally, the phenotype of the classic Caucasian skull is as accurate, generally, as its Africoid counterpart. Maxillary and alveolar prognathisms are also classic features of the Africoid phenotype, a feature which often results in a receding chin line. This collection of classic Africoid features (along with the distinctively large incisors common among Nilotic peoples, creating a "bucktoothed" appearance) is precisely the same set of characteristics which clearly reveals the mummy of King Tutankhamen as black African, rather than "Caucasoid North African," as was recently claimed in the shameful (and ongoing) whitewashing of ancient dynastic Egypt by Zawas and the usual lying, racist European suspects.

IMO, black folks need to cut the crap and stop being so damned defensive and reactionary. F*** the racist lies and deal with the facts. I see the dolichocephalic crania (what we black folks call "peanut heads") and maxillary and alveolar prognathisms in even my highly miscegenated African American brothers and sisters everywhere I look. Many of us no longer have dolichocephalic skulls -- or at least not to the degree illustrated -- some of us may lack even the classic maxillary prognathism (but two of my own parents' four children do have maxillary prognathism, and that's with white and full-blood Native American ancestry within just four generations), but most of us have retained both the maxillary and alveolar prognathisms (from my own observations, both are extremely common, with the latter being more prevalent than the former). Get real! We can't on one hand use the phenotypical model to identify long-dead black African kings and then repudiate its fundamental accuracy and cry "racism" on another. User:deeceevoice 07:52, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

Mesfin's response

What are you talking about ("classic Negroid phenotype")? It is my understanding that "Negroid" means black people and it is an absurd suggestion that blacks have some sort of different skull type due to genetics. Can you show me any group of people that all share this skull type? User:Mesfin

This is what I'm afraid of. I find it crazy that people can accept the idea that there is such a thing as a "Negroid skull type" (What is the definition of "Negroid" anyways? Is there a clear one?). Let alone the fact that this "skull type" looks like some form of primitive monkey skull. You say that this has nothing to do with "objective observation" then where is the scientific proof that backs this claim up? Where are the scientific studies that prove that "Negroids" have different skull types? I would like to read it. If this theory is not widely accepted (which I am sure it is not), what is it doing in Wikipedia anyways? User:Mesfin

Who said it is accurate? What makes this accurate? "unmiscegenated"? What does that even mean? User:Mesfin

Who said they are not "Caucasian"? Can you even define "Caucasian" in any meaningful way? Who are these "Nordics"? What does this group consist of? User:Mesfin

Hold on a minute. First: Define what group of people makes up "Africoid". Second: Prove that this group of people all have a set of common significantly different skull features. Third: Prove that these features are unique to this set group of people. Forth: prove that these features are genetically caused. Five: Show me a scientifically respected and accepted report of this study. Sixth: I will reconsider my position, and my grounds for objection. User:Mesfin

What are you talking about? Who cares if King Tut was black or not? If you want to see black kings you can find plenty in Africa. Just check my old country (Eritrea/Ethiopia). King are just people who killed/staved/conquered a lot of people to gain or stay in power. Kings are nothing to be proud of, in fact neither is race. User:Mesfin

What facts? Where are these facts? User:Mesfin

What? You can see what skulls they have? This method you are using seems highly subjective. What if I show you black people who have all kinds of different skull shapes? Would you stop trying to believe this pseudoscience? User:Mesfin

Hold on, does this mean you are no longer "Negroid"? What makes someone with one "type" of head any less black then another person with a different head "type". User:Mesfin

Again, what's with this idea of identifing dead kings? What are you talking about? User:Mesfin

end Mesfin's response

I think the links to the pictures from a company above should be used. These are realistic photos and the skulls sold get used for serious purposes where validity is required. Pavel Vozenilek 15:52, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

I disagree -- because the photo of the black African skull is not presented in profile. At least the illustration is thorough, with the distinctive phenotypical features clearly labeled. The photo isn't terribly informative/instructive. deeceevoice 17:04, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

You say that this is an Black African skull type, but Black Africans don't have one set skull type. Show me proof that there is a "racial difference" in skulls User:Mesfin

Here is another nice website with a number of human skull casts for your viewing. [4]

The differences between the different races' skulls should be obvious even to the untrained eye.PiccoloNamek 23:12, August 13, 2005 (UTC)

I appreciate your efforts at finding another link; however these are still not profile shots. The prognathism is not evident -- nor is the dolichocephalism. The illustration is still superior in that regard. deeceevoice 05:51, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

I agree, considering that I uploaded the original image. I was merely trying to help point out that the differences do in fact exist. In those pictures, it's very obvious in the nasal opening and in the eye orbits and in the case of the asian skull, the projecting zygomatics.PiccoloNamek 06:14, August 14, 2005 (UTC)

Vehgah's response:

Using skull analysis is not scientific, and should not be used to classify race. If it was used to the letter, that would mean you might have a "Caucasoid" and a "Negroid" siblings who have common parentage. The -oid terminology should be labeled a pseudoscience in this article, or at least unscientific.link --Vehgah 03:19, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

The most accepted measurement of race is genetic cluster analysis. Craniometrics is a correlated measurement.--Nectar 22:55, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

ALL RIGHT

I've finally found the page where the images originally came from. This page also includes extremely detailed information concerning the differences in structure between the different racial skull types.

http://www.wku.edu/~darlene.applegate/forensic/lab7/lab7.html

If this doesn't help to end this silly-ass dispute, I don't know what will.PiccoloNamek 04:49, August 15, 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for hunting up the link. I'm glad the illustration is staying. And, yes. I agree. The objections to the image are ridiculous. deeceevoice 09:10, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

It is unbelievable the contempt wiki users have for people of african descent. It isn't a coincidence that the mongoloid page doesnt have a skull drawing. That obsurd skull picture reeks of racial imperialism.

If by "racial imperialism" you mean "scientific fact" then yes, it does indeed reek of racial imperialism. As for the mongoloid page, I believe the image was deleted some time ago.PiccoloNamek 22:52, August 18, 2005 (UTC)

This picture is unequivically racist. If you go to google and search for wealthy people of African descent, you will see that their heads do not look like the second stage of evolution from primates.. This picture upseting to the african community, it is no better than this one http://library.thinkquest.org/C0121653/race%20face%201.gif. I do not hold a Phd in anatomy but it is obvious this is designed to give the likes of "stormfront" material so they can further recruit more hate mongerors. ~Chueyjoo 'defender of racial equality'

The picture on the page is a picture that is used in racial determination in forensics, which is a legitimate science. It is not racist, please shut up.PiccoloNamek 23:18, August 18, 2005 (UTC)

Uh, excuse me, Chueyjoo, but I'm a "member of the (pan-)African community." I've been in the struggle probably longer than you've been alive. And I don't cringe in humiliation when idiots liken black people to apes; that's their stupidity and hatred. It's got nothing to do with what and who my people are. Such defensiveness, anger/hostility stinks suspiciously of either ignorance or self-loathing. You certainly don't speak for me. I have no problem at all with the illustration; it is dead-on accurate -- for what it is. You wanna fight the rampant racism on Wikipedia? Fine. There's certainly enough on this website to keep you occupied. But do it from a base of knowledge -- not ignorance. deeceevoice 03:50, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Deeceevoice - you made a comment that really cleared up the mess, and made me re-evaluate my position. The picture, althogh I think is exaggerated, may come across as offensive, because of how we growing up were trained to associate Blackness with inferiority (apes). And perhaps an oversensitive zeal in pre-emptively finding subtle attempts to reinforce racism caused me to react that way. I personally can see how Caucasoid features ALSO reflect apelike characteristics, and you mentioning that reminded me then that I need not be offended on what I objectively see, but what it may objectively imply when taken out of context. So ok, I will leave the picture alone. I see though, I came into a large debate, that I had been unaware of. Apparently it's the "white naive liberal" position that is causing the most controversy? To that position I say this: As a Black person who does not exhibit the phenotype in that skull, I can admit, that my own impressions subjectively clouded my objectivity. Maybe you should also consider. If necessary, find a skull of an actual African and lets see how close or far from the truth the drawing is. - Zaph.

Hey, Zaph. *wavin' at the brutha* :) I'm only just now seeing your comment. I haven't been back this way in quite a while. Well, I don't have a dolichocephalic skull, but I definitely have both a maxillary and alveolar prognathism. And, no. Not even all unmiscegenated Africans (many of us here in the States are simply mongrels -- no two ways about it) have dolichocephalic skulls or maxillary prognathisms. But I haven't met or seen one of us yet (unmixed) who doesn't have an alveolar prognathism. I appreciate your comments, though. I've long ago stopped letting the racism of white folks (and others) perturb me; it's their problem -- not mine. I'm not sensitive to it in the least in that sense. I recognize it and fight it when I deem it necessary/productive/important. But we are what we are -- collectively (and, yes, stereotypically/classically): chocolate brown or blue-black with round, "Bantu booties"; full lips; nappy/happy hair with a mind of its own; (sometimes) long heads; broad noses; forward-slanting, sometimes to the point of being downright angular, profiles -- yeah, alluh dat. And I embrace it, appreciate it, truly dig it. IMO, we're the baddest, most beautiful things on God's green. :D I walk in that truth. And I don't much give a damn about those who are so blinded by racism, intolerance, hatred and their own fears and insecurities, that they can't/won't see our Light. I don't care what kind of adjectives they hang on us, or what they try to associate us with. Their constant attempts to dehumanize and denigrate us are a reflection on them and their sickness -- not us. Apes? Without them, we would not be here. They are our ancestors -- and WE are the ancestors of everyone (and everything) else. We stood upright, and OUR eyes saw the Earth when it was new. We built the first great civilizations. We are God's Firstborn. (And I walk in those truths, too. :p) Peace and Light 2 u, my beautiful, black brutha. :) deeceevoice 13:02, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

New Topic

I personally think "Negroid" which ultimately goes back to the root for "death" and "nothingness" should be replaced. Yes, I know that it's the most commonly used word in science, but, this is what needs to be changed. These scientific backbone foundation ideas (scientific classification of racial-skull shapes for example) will have an impact on the minds of children. - Zaph

Well, that's why I use "Africoid" -- because of the negative connotations of "Negroid" and "Negro" -- and because, unlike the other "racial" classifications, it doesn't refer back to our geographic point of origin. As far as "race" goes, hey, it's not going away. What has more of an impact, IMO, on the minds of children is the aversion of far too many blacks to dealing with the attendant issues up front and forthrightly. If we teach young, black children who they are and to truly value that -- not just parrot slogans and still run around color-struck and pursuing the perfect perm -- and continue to fight for their right to walk free in the world, with equal opportunity -- and teach them to take advantage of those positive opportunities when they present themselves, and to fight alongside us when they are not -- and own who they are then they (and we) will be just fine. I don't waste my time with pie-in-the-sky or marginally relevant struggles like battling about certain terminology. Part of the battle is being strong enough and knowledgeable enough to go toe to toe with ignorance and beat it down beneath the ground, on its own grounds -- instead of trying to change "locations" (terminology) completely. I pick my battles -- especially since I realize most white folks don't give a damn. They've got their own issues. What's important to us is not what's important to them. I don't even try to make them see certain things. What's the point? Don't waste your time. deeceevoice 13:37, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Polynesians, Melanesians, Micronesians & Australoids

I am very curious as to the source of the information stated in paragraph four. I know of no respectable sources that consider these groups to be "Negroid." -- Gerkinstock 02:33, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Its seems from your user page that either your have some kind of problem with black and asian people or your very ignorant to what a black person is. Or maybe in your country they have a white drop rule where anyone who does not have a flat nose is white.

Political Agenda

It seems that the requirements for which people are to be defined as Caucasoid is far less strict than the requirements for which people are to be defined as Negroid. Apparently about only half of Africa is considered unquestioningly Negroid but Caucasoid people include all of Europe, all of the Middle East, all of North Africa as well as India. To be defined as Negroid it seems you must have very specific features including dark skin, and very specific facial features. Caucasoid on the other hand can range from very white skin, blonde thin hair to dark brown skin, thick black curly hair as well as a variety of facial features. I think it is obvious that a political agenda was at work when the white Americans established these designations.

There are just as many posters here with Afrocentric political agendas, as the "Caucasoid" page was often edited to include only people of European descent (and usually only SOME people of European descent), while contributors of a similar vein want to include all North Africans, some Southern Europeans, some West Asians, some South Asians, Melanesians, Polynesians, Micronesians and even some Native Americans in the "Negroid" classification. Genetic studies have shown that most-- certainly not all-- North Africans and East Indians are within the Caucasoid genetic cluster, which is no more diverse than the "Negroid" cluster, while East Africans are clearly not. Almost all Middle Easterners cluster with other Western Eurasians as well. From Pygmies to Masai to Dinka to Ethiopians/Somalis to West Africans you will find a great deal of variation, esp. in the areas of body type and genetic diversity. -- Gerkinstock 00:45, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Can you explain how someone editing Caucasoid to include only Europeans automatically means that they have an “Afrocentric” political agenda as you put it? This clearly seems to be speculation on your part. Also I’m pretty sure that scientific knowledge on genetics was very limited in the early to mid 20th century, the time in which these designations were issued. Lets also not forget that it was marred with racism, specifically in America at this time. I have also learned that it is possible for some people of one racial group to have more of a genetic similarity to another group then that of their own. This is not restricted these specific groups you mentioned.

Because Caucasoid, even in the 21st century, does not solely mean European. There is no break between Europeans and West Asians, for example. As much as there are "Eurocentrists" who wish to erase the black ancestry of North Africans, there are "Afrocentrists" who wish to limit Caucasoids to as small a geograhic region of origin as possible. "Caucasoid" has never solely meant European, anymore than "Negroid" means solely West African. -- Gerkinstock 22:18, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

That was a very evasive reply seeing as you managed to not answer my question at all. Are you acknowledging that you were just blindly speculating?

Hey, calm down! ....εγκυκλοπαίδεια* (talk) 19:03, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

No, I am not acknowledging any such thing. And I did answer your question. Everything I have read on the subject includes West Asians and most North Africans and South Asians in the definition of "Caucasoid." This is not speculation on my part, and the information is not 100 years old; it is from the 1990's and 2000's. -- 24.130.117.205 21:19, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Since you insist on giving answers that don’t match my question I must assume that you read it carelessly. Here it is again for you.

“Can you explain how someone editing Caucasoid to include only Europeans automatically means that they have an “Afrocentric” political agenda as you put it? This clearly seems to be speculation on your part.”

It doesn't automatically mean the person is Afrocentric, it depends on who edits it. Posters like JMac are Afrocentric, and he was the one who insisted on Caucasoids being defined solely as European (and only some Europeans), while greatly exaggerating the Negroid element in ancient North Africans and beyond. -- 24.130.117.205 22:35, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

You still have not given a plausible reason for anyone to believe your claim that people who edit Caucasoid to include only Europeans have an “Afrocentric” agenda isn’t anything other than speculation. If your claim was that some people have and “Afrocentric” agenda based on people editing Negroid to include some Europeans for example then your argument may have held some weight.

It is very common among Afrocentrists to narrow the Caucasoid population as much as possible while exaggerating the Negroid population's boundaries; in fact, this classic Afrocentrism 101. It is not even remotely controversial that approximately 80% of the North African make-up is Caucasoid, contrary to what Mr. Mac stated in explaining one of his edits. Nor is it remotely controversial to note that West Asians are Caucasoid, or that South Asians are predominantly (though certainly not entirely) Caucasoid. That posters like JMac consistently try to narrow the Caucasoid classification far beyond what credible anthropologists and geneticists define it as, while similtaneously making the case that Negroids are indigenous to and prevelant in areas like Southern Europe, West Asia and South Asia, amounts to nothing less than Afrocentric bias. You can play dumb on this issue if you wish, but what JMac consistently deleted from the Caucasoid page was NOT controversial material; instead, it was what he put in its place that is not backed up by studies of DNA and fossilized bones. The Afrocentric bias has mostly reared itself on this page, not the Negroid page. Nonetheless, the Negroid page's claims that Polynesians, Melanesians, Australoids and Micronesians are Negroid seems to fit with the Afrocentric agenda as well (i.e. expanding the definition of Negroid far beyond what credible anthropologists and geneticts have written in their papers and books). -- 24.130.117.205 00:48, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

You have significantly increased my suspicion that you are a very paranoid and obsessive person. The reason for this is that you are exhibiting a very one-dimensional way of thinking, as if there is a mental block. Anyone who reads your posts can clearly see the total insincerity of your accusations, displaying an utter lack of objectivity.

??????????... are you a serial killer? --Gerkinstock 16:19, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Seems like user 24... is more concerned with forcing everyone to believe is 60 year old views of coon. All your evidence comes back from a time where it was mainstream to view any great civlization as white. Lets remmeber the belgians called the Tutsi's light caucasoids and said that hutus were not able of achieving greatness and forced the tutsi to enslave the hutus

Polynesians, Melanesians, Micronesians & Australoids not negroid

they have been in lived in the ociena for at least 50.000-40.000 years and before that Southeast-Asia and then south-asia. And their hair is rather straight then curly and can often be natural blonde. and also from a genetic point of view they are far diffirent. -Anon

Firstly we shouln't randomly be removing things from articles just because some mad-man comes in here and demands we do. I think any discussion on the negroid races should involve only people who believe race exist or else this page should otherwise be deleted. -Png2tog (sign your name by typing four "~"s)

The perspective of scientists who emphasize the weaknesses of "race" are germane to this article. Any edits I make here are to keep the science concordant with mainstream scientific opinion. Polynesians etc. are not african and have never been included in usage of this term.--Nectar 06:44, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Nectar who died and appointed you king of races? Stop trying to force your personal opinion as proof. Most people from places like fiji or png not only call themselves black and look black and where claled negroids, but are considered blacks by those who live around them. Now your claiming that they are genetically different. I don't dispute that they are gentically different, from Bantu africans, but they are genetically identical to non-bantu africans from central africa such as the pygmies who are concsidered to be all black. Jmac800