Talk:Comparison of Islamic and Jewish dietary laws

They share a common root?

The following sentence is unclear and should be edited: "They share a common root: a Jewish code of laws found in Leviticus and an explanation of the Islamic code of law found in the Qur'an."

Something found in Leviticus and something found in the Qur'an aren't exactly a "common root," unless what is meant is that Jewish and Islamic laws share a common ancestor, or that the Qur'anic law has its origins in Leviticus. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.182.82.36 (talk) 03:20, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

My contributions to this article, for the most part, are now incorporated into it. Please help improve it if possibleStarwarp2k2 05:24, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

My source for any adult sane Jew performing shechitah is classical codes of Jewish law like Shulchan Aruch; I'll hopefully look up the exact chapter and include that ref in the next few days.

The only reason I did the CN tag is because that is not what I found through my online inquries. But it's fully possible that I didn't look in the right places, I'm not an expert on the subject by any definition of the word.Starwarp2k2 12:21, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Understood. The websites you found were describing what is practically done today -- no one uses anything other than a trained and certified shochet. But going back to the actual Hebrew sources listing the requirements, it just says adult and sane. (In fact, among the Yemenite Jewish community, a standard high-school-level education included shechitah.) Is that acceptable?

I figured that was the case (the requirement of a trained and certified shochet being a product of changing times). I have no qualms about this change, as long as you can find a good source for it. If what you say is true, then I think that this bullet point in the article should be moved to "similarities" rather than "differences" because the religious requirement is the same, it is just the implementation that is different. Your opinion?

Also, I looked into this but could not come to a conclusive answer. I may as well ask you. Do you know if according to the laws of shechitah, the shochet must recite God's name prior to slaughter? If so, what about before each slaughter? This is something I was looking to add to this articleStarwarp2k2 21:59, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

The shochet is not required to say anything before the individual slaughter of each animal, but I believe they are required to say a prayer when entering the slaughterhouse. Also the article states that "The most prevalent consensus among Muslim scholars is that in order to be dhabiĥa halal, the fish must have scales." This is incorrect - and is only the opinion of Shi'a scholars The four Sunni madhabs allow the consumption of fish without scales. BhaiSaab ^talk 02:12, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Please alter the article, adding the appropriate sources, as you deem necessary. Thanks for your help.Starwarp2k2 03:57, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I got some primary sources here: Maimonides Code of Jewish Law (it doesn't get much more primary than that!). Laws of Shechitah 1:2 says that before each uninterrupted round of slaughtering, the blessing is recited "Blessed are you G-d ... who commanded us regarding ... Schechitah". This fits the standard form of blessing before just about any Jewish ritual, where one blessing covers any round of uninterrupted activity. If, for example, he stopped after a few slaughters to take a phone call, he'd make a new blessing upon starting again. IF the blessing was not recited, the meat is still kosher. (Commentaries on Maimonides observe that there had been a minority opinion in the 800s or so that if the shochet purposely omitted the blessing, that would render the meat un-kosher, but by now, that opinion has become such an extremely minority, not-followed one that I don't think it even warrants mention here.)

As far as who can be a Shochet, I checked Maimonides Laws of Shechitah 2:12 (and commentaries there). We approve only of an adult, sane Jew. Theoretically, if, on freak occasion, shechita WAS performed by a Jew who's minor or insane, if we can verify that the technique was done properly, the meat is still kosher.

So do we call this a similarity or a difference? The insane/minor thing is such a freak technicality I'm not sure if it warrants mention; I think this article is intended more to describe what's done today (no?). My impression would be to call it a similarity: both Islam and Judaism approve of any adult, sane member of their religion who knows the correct technique. [Using the word "approve" gets around the minor/insane technicality.] However, Judaism today has come to rely only on trained, certified shochet men. (And it just so happens that women don't usually do it today.) Then maybe on the differences, you could point out the freak technicality about a minor or insane person. Does that make sense?

Okay, I'm going to go ahead and make the changes this way. If you disapprove, you're welcome to modify them any way you see fit.

Yup, it doesn't get much more primary than that. Thanks!

"This blessing follows the standard form for a blessing before most Jewish rituals ("blessed are you God ... who commanded us ... regarding such-and-such", in this case, Shechita), and as such, failure to recite the blessing would not invalidate the Shechita [Maimonides 1:2 and commentaries ad loc]." The logic of that sentence is unclear. How does the first part of the sentence supply a reason for the second part (divided by "as such"). Do you understand what I'm saying? It's hard to put what I'm trying to say into words. Starwarp2k2 18:40, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Starwarp, hopefully I clarified this. The rule of thumb for all pre-ritual blessings is that a lack of the blessing does not invalidate the ritual, and since the blessing here is no different than any other pre-ritual blessing, it doesn't invalidate the shechita.

Can I just say I like the way this reordered itself? Good job everyone!

Hey, should this article still be marked as needing cleanup? I think it certainly looks a lot better now, IMHO.

That is much easier to understand. I only have one qualm before I let the topic of pre-slaughter recitation go, I hope you don't me being extremely critical. I haven't reviewed the citation you inserted (Maimonides 1:2 and commentaries ad loc), but does that citation verify the "general rule" assertion? I believe for a statement of such caliber, a citation should be included.

No, good point. Hm, the general rule ... 1:2 itself states that if no blessing was recited, the meat is still kosher. It's strongly implied from the commentaries that this is because it's like any other blessing ... you want an original source on the rule about blessings in general? Hm, it's something I'd seen so much in so many locations, I've almost taken for granted ... hopefully I can track that one down for you -- certainly a valid point, once again. Thanks.

Other than that, I really like how this article turned out too. It seems pretty clean, just lacks some citations. I second the opinion that this article no longer needs a cleanup tag. Thanks for your help! Starwarp2k2 23:39, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

One stroke

The article says one stroke is needed for both Muslim and Jewish slaughterings. In fact, for shekhitah, if the shekhitah is accomplished with one stroke, the animal is treiffe as it is proof of Pressing - one of the five forbidden actions. In shekhitah the knife must be drawn back and forth across the throat without pausing until the majority of the food pipe and windpipe are cut through. Technically, if one has an enormously skilled shokhet, no artiery or veign is ever required to be cut in the throat. 88.154.158.42 21:31, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

I have the opposite opinion. One stroke from an extremely well honed knife by a trained shochet (Jewish) should immediately cause a drop in blood pressure and unconciousness in the animal. The trachea, esophagus, carotid artery and jugular vein MUST be severed. There is a properly sized knife for each animal, small for a chicken, larger for a cow. The rabbi who is qualified as for shechita studies animal anatomy and pathology. My information comes from the chabad.org website. Halal, on the other hand, does not seem to require training or certification. Animals are slain for holidays by the men in the family. This is done outdoors and the blood runs down the street. In the videos from Gaza (YouTube on the festival of Eid), the men saw through the necks of the animals with many cuts. The animals struggle; but in my opinion the attempt is made to reduce pain and suffering of the animal. 173.76.222.63 (talk) 11:45, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Blood

Based on the very much that I know about Kashrut, and the far less that I know about Halal, this is a wonderfully accurate article. I'd like to suggest something that could be added, though. The article says that according to both Kashrut and Halal, the blood must drain from the animal after slaughter. According to Kashrut, though, there is an additional step: after the hide is removed (and after the meat is cut up, I think) there is an additional procedure to remove the remaining blood. (This procedure involves several steps, but can be summarized by saying that the meat is rinsed with water, covered with salt to extract the blood, and then rinsed again.) If there is no comparable procedure in Halal, this should be mentioned as a difference. If there is a comparable procedure in Halal, this should be mentioned as a similarity. --Keeves 21:42, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Hey there! I checked all the sources I had on halal slaughtering, and could not find an equivalent for the salting process of Kashrut. Of course, there is also a good possibility that my sources just fail to mention it. I don't believe there is any concrete primary source which says 'THIS is exactly how you slaughter an animal according to Islam', as I beleive there is with Judaism(?). That explains why it is so hard to find concrete information on halal. For this reason, I think we should say in the article under the differences section(IF it is true):

• Although both require that blood is fully drained, the draining process is strictly enumerated according to Kashrut, and it is not so for dhabiha halal.

If you want, you can even elaborate on the process if you feel it to be appropriate for this page (probably not). Your opinion?Starwarp2k2 14:09, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Alcohol

Suppose a tiny amount of alcohol is present in a food, so little that the final product is not intoxicating in any way. Is this halal or haram? I have heard that it is haram, and if so, it might be worth mentioning in the article that many flavorings and colors are made with alcohol, and would therefore render the final manufactured product as haram. This would be another reason for those who observe halal to consider kashrut as insufficient. --Keeves 14:01, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

You touched upon a hot debate there. I find this explanation extremely accurate:

• "These guidelines are for the food industry to make halal certified products, however, where should one draw the line, is up to the individual Muslim consumer based on the available knowledge and his or her own commitment." [1]

So, there is no conclusive answer to your question. I updated the article. What do you think?Starwarp2k2 14:26, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the research! I like the new version, but my opinion on this isn't worth much. I'll be watching to see responses from people who are more familiar with halal than I am. --Keeves 20:02, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

A recent Fatwa by Shaich Al-Qardawi which i find very rational. he says that only added alcohol on food is Haram. but if very little amounts of Alcohol are formed naturally then it doesnt make the food Haram. Isoman00 (talk) 19:08, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Grasshoppers

I understand Keeves' point about too much detail. The trick here is, are we talking about theoretical kashrut vs. halal, or practical kashrut vs. halal? ("More-strict keepers of kosher/halal will only eat at restaurants certified as such" -- that's practical. "If an insane person performed ritual slaughter" - that's theoretical.) Point in case: the bugs/grasshoppers issue. I just don't want people reading this article and walking away thinking that most kosher-observant Jews eat grasshoppers! (Nothing against the Yemenites, mind you...) Does that make sense? TLMD13 14:47, 13 November 2006 (UTC)TLMD13

Need to mention women allowed to do slaughter

Are women allowed to slaughter animals, because in Ethiopia women cannot kill animals for food.--HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 01:33, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I can't comment about Halal, but as far as kosher shechita goes, there's no difference at all between a male and female slaughterer; it just happens to be (for whatever reason) that it's almost all men doing it today. This is indicated in the article. TLMD13 15:19, 5 January 2007 (UTC)TLMD13

Same for Halal. Both males and females can do slaughter. Isoman00 (talk) 19:13, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Fish/scales

Yes, kosher fish must have "scales", but how are "scales" defined? Classical Jewish sources say the fish must have, as an adult, scales that can easily be scraped off with a blade. By the time a swordfish, reaches maturity, its scales have sunk into its skin and aren't easily removed. Consequently, swordfish (at any stage of development) is not kosher. What about halal? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by TLMD13 (talk • contribs) 14:46, 6 February 2007 (UTC).

How about milk/meat?=

I'm surprised nothing in this article mentions the need to separate milk/meat in kosher dietary laws--it's pretty significant and I don't understand why it's ommitted--am I missing something here? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 140.180.21.85 (talk) 20:49, 17 February 2007 (UTC).

The article reads: "Kashrut prohibits mixing meat and dairy, which may not be consumed or prepared together. Dhabiĥa halal has no such rules."Starwarp2k2 22:25, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Comparative literature

Hi. Very educational article. But I'm wondering, how much of this is based on secondary sources that do the comparative work? I'm concerned that this looks like a fine piece of original research. HG | Talk 16:40, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Good question, HG. But how about a page such as, say, Comparison of operating systems? Did they need a secondary source to do the comparisons, or do they go do the research on each operating system, and then argue that the comparison itself is not "original research" per se? I'd think if most "comparison" pages are okay, this one should be too; no? TLMD13 16:10, 11 November 2007 (UTC)TLMD13

I feel uneasy about all the comparison pages. It's so easy to introduce bias in the method of comparison. That's why I'd rather see the material on this page integrated into the general article on Ritual slaughter.Itsmejudith 18:20, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Narrowing the scope of the comparison to just ritual slaughter would probably be good. Too much of kashrut like orla, issur to heter, chodosh and shmetta has no similarity to halal. Also the page has

They share a common root: a code of laws found in Leviticus and recapitulated in the Quran

Not all kashrut laws are found in Leviticus. The rule against Jews eating the sciatic nerve is in Genesis, see http://www.torah.org/learning/halacha-overview/chapter28.html. Further, kashrut is also rooted in the oral talmud. I have not clue how any of this might relate to what is in the Quran, so I do not feel qualified to edit the section. 99.233.17.146 (talk) 07:10, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Camel

The article states the camel is halal but not kosher, implying that it has cloven hooves but does not chews cud. However, Leviticus 11 states eating camel is forbidden because "the camel, though it chews the cud, does not have a split hoof". What gives? Ratfox (talk) 15:58, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Is it possible to make food that is both kosher and halal?

Imagine I had a restaurant that served meat. Would it (theoretically) be possible for my restaurant to be both kosher as well as halal?--Soylentyellow (talk) 16:13, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Are you thinking of starting a business? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.29.75.26 (talk) 01:08, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

From what I've read about Kosher and I'm a muslim, most of Kosher food is Halal but the same doesn't apply vice versa. Isoman00 (talk) 19:15, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Dabiha Halal and Halal

I think throughout the article the term that should be used is Halal. Dabiha Halal only applies for slaughtered animals. I will correct the article now and if anyone has any objections i'm open for discussion Isoman00 (talk) 19:19, 22 September 2009 (UTC)