Talk:Torture

NPOV template

see Talk:Torture/Archive 3#NPOV template

user:Ashe the Cyborg please state the reason you think that this page needs the {{POV}} template on the top of the article. If you do not do so I shall remove the template. If you do not think that the whole article has non neutral point of view poblesms then please be more specific by adding a {{POV section}} in the specific sections where you think there is a problem of bias. --PBS (talk) 11:40, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Treaties are inherently POLITICAL statements and often have no scientific basis beyond the current power and popularity of signatories. Citing a treaty does not change that. Scientifically speaking there are many fairly famous incidents in history where torture did work and was for the user practical in a secular sense. (read a few Holocaust or medieval siege diaries - though you will need to search hard since those are not heroic stories) Given that proving spiritual balances and values is out of the realm of Wikipedia, a better less political statement might be...

The primary controversy about torture is the spiritual and social question: WHEN IF EVER DOES THE ENDS JUST THE MEANS? As a source of intelligence torture does not always work and its results almost always require FURTHER verification before action. Failure often occurs when the torturer is prejudice or gullible about answers or the mentality of the individual being tortured. (You should be able to get many recent USA or UK anecdotal citations, if nothing official.)

As a tool of forced confession, torture is normally successful but such confessions are usually suspected of being false or at least of questionable validity. Also the use of torture is quite often visible or suspect via past reputation of the user.

Thus even when torture does work it is often ill-advised due to political and socio-religious repercussions. For spiritual extremists torture is never viable even to potentially prevent all life on Earth from destruction -- if someone acts to help in an impure way, like torture, they damn you spiritually. However, due to differing judgments and systems of spiritual and secular values, the debate remains. Many secularist views spiritual extremists as unrealistic in seeking the "high road" at literally any cost to self and all others. Is there ever a negative side to seeking world wide spiritual perfection and ignoring the secular concerns of large groups of people? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.26.139.168 (talk) 14:29, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Subjective and objective

On the 8 June 2009 I replaced rather vague accusation against the USA with a specific hypothetical example from an international court case, on the on subjective as well as objective criteria for torture as put forward by one of the judges in that case. On the 10 June 2009, the USA accusation was put back in by user:Likesausages with the comment "added back controversy in US, with citation as suggested, to supplement EU case", I do not see how this accusation against the USA provides any more information about the Subjective and objective of torture than is provided by the non-political EU example. --PBS (talk) 08:39, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

The accusation against the USA need not be vague. The US government officially, if not always openly, endorsed torture. Some officials employed Orwellian double speak, and redefined "torture", others were quite open about practising it. Bizarre really, even Nazi Germany wasn't so open about committing torture.JohnC (talk) 06:52, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Strange link

This reference "The applicable sanction is publicity that nonconforming signatories have broken their treaty obligations.Maggie Farley A UN inquiry says the treatment of detainees at Guantanamo Bay, which at times amounts to torture, violates international law. in The Los Angeles Times" Is odd. The Truthout article claims to be a reprint from the LA Times but if you follow the link they give the LA Times article is not the same. Should we use this link? Bonewah (talk) 14:36, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

I did a bit of seaching, the article is all over the net but luckily the original is also available on line http://articles.latimes.com/2006/feb/13/nation/na-gitmo13 so I suggest you replace the link with a link directly to the LA Times version. -- PBS (talk) 19:55, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Done Bonewah (talk) 20:02, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Sexual torture

There ought to be additional meterial on the topic of sexual torture, but it should be written in a way that distinguishes the practice from the otherwise legal practice of BDSM. ADM (talk) 07:47, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

This page discusses political torture, not torture in the dictionary sense, hence is misleading

From the "Torture (disambiguation)" page:

  "Torture, the infliction of pain to break the will of the victim or victims "

The topic as covered on this page seems to be specific to political torture, is therefore overly specific and misleading, and is not in accord with the link from the disambiguation page (see above). It completely misses reference to, for instance, sadistic torture: the creation of human pain in another as a way to induce pleasure in the person applying torture. Note: even inclusion of sexual torture as per one of the comments here is overly specific. For instance, concentration camp inmates and child abuse victims are routinely subjected to torture which has no "political" objective, nor is it sexual in nature, used merely to exercise power and control over its victims/witnesses and/or to satisfy the sadistic intentions of its perpetrators (e.g. heads held underwater, hands held on burning stoves, etc...)

I would suggest updating this page to cover the standard dictionary definition of torture &/or creating a page dedicated to the topic of political torture.

From the Miriam-Webster On-Line Dictionary: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/torture

Main Entry: 1tor·ture Pronunciation: \ˈtȯr-chər\ Function: noun Etymology: Middle French, from Old French, from Late Latin tortura, from Latin tortus, past participle of torquēre to twist; probably akin to Old High German drāhsil turner, Greek atraktos spindle

Date: 1540

1 a : anguish of body or mind : agony b : something that causes agony or pain

2 : the infliction of intense pain (as from burning, crushing, or wounding) to punish, coerce, or afford sadistic pleasure

3 : distortion or overrefinement of a meaning or an argument : straining —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.27.0.187 (talk) 22:04, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Other motives for torture is mentioned in the introduction "In addition to state-sponsored torture, individuals or groups may be motivated to inflict torture on others for similar reasons to those of a state; however, the motive for torture can also be for the sadistic gratification of the torturer, as was the case in the Moors murders." and there used to be more on this aspect of torture in the body of the , but AFAICT it was removed because the paragraphs were not sourced.

There is no one dictionary definition. It is important to note that torture involves the infliction of "severe pain or suffering" not just "pain of suffering". The Oxford English Dictionary make this point in its primary definition of the noun torture "The infliction of severe bodily pain, as punishment or a means of persuasion; spec. judicial torture, inflicted by a judicial or quasi-judicial authority, for the purpose of forcing an accused or suspected person to confess, or an unwilling witness to give evidence or information; a form of this (often in pl.). to put to (the) torture, to inflict torture upon, to torture." and as a verb " 1. trans. To inflict torture upon, subject to torture; spec. to subject to judicial torture; put to the torture. Also absol. --PBS (talk) 13:06, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Torture in mosques

There are reports about the existence of torture chambers in various mosques throughout the Middle East. It might be helpful if there were an article entitled torture in mosques which could help explain the origins and extent of this strange phenomenon. [1][2][3] ADM (talk) 22:59, 5 December 2009 (UTC)