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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 193.230.195.1 (talk) at 17:13, 17 January 2006. The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

I don't know if Wiki has any guidelines on translating geographical names vs. transliterating them - but I think that unless there's already an established name, transliteration is the way to go. Thus, I suggest that we don't translate the words like "naberezhnaja" as "embarkment" (especially given that the word "embarkment" is not really used in English this way either), just as we don't translate words like "avenue" when spelling foreign names in Russian. Azov

Here is the convention I propose (loosely based on AP style guidelines and reference book Иностранные имена и названия в русском тексте: Справочник. / Гиляревский Р. С., Старостин Б. А. I know that the book talks about using foreign names in Russian texts, but I think the basic principles and rationales are the same in English). Azov 20:25, 20 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Firstly, you seem to confuse embankment with embarkment. Secondly, whatever Soviet books are saying, you may check any guidebook: they don't use "Tverskaya ulitsa", they use "Tverskaya street", for toponyms should be understood by foreigners. I can imagine a poor foreigner struggling to pronounce "naberezhnaya" ;) --Ghirlandajo 21:08, 20 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Yep, of course I meant embankment :-) And you're right that "naberezhnaja" is hard to pronounce, but so is "Kotelnicheskaya". Should we call it something like "Boilermakers Embankment" instead? And if we do so - would anyone be able to guess what we're referring to? Or find it on a Russian-language map? Or even on an English-lenguage map that uses a different naming style? I don't think so. Russian words are generally not easy for an English speaker, they've got to live with that :)
I actually checked a whole shelf of guidebooks in a local bookstore - some of the books transliterate "common" parts of proper names, some translate, most use a mixture of both.
But the problem with "mixture" approach on Wikipedia is that there are many ways to translate the same name, and different people do it differently - resulting in a mess that we currently have. Take Poklonnaya Gora for example: is it Poklonnaya Hill, Poklonnaya Mountain, or maybe Bow-down Hill (and I'm sure one can come up with a dozen of other reasonable variants). Thus, I'm trying to propose a consistent style. The tricky part there is figuring out whether a "common" word (like street, embankment, etc.) is part of a proper name or not. Sometimes it's clear: if you can't take the word out, it's definitely a part of the name (i.e. in Ulitsa 1905 Goda - you can't take out the word Ulitsa), but in cases like Kotelnicheskaya it's not that obvious. In such cases proper capitalization is the key. I think that Kotelnicheskaya Naberezhnaya, Kotelnicheskaya embankment, and Kotelnicheskaya Naberezhnaya embankment are all ok, but Kotelnicheskaya Embankment is not.
Do you mean "Koteliniki Embankment is not"? I agree that "Kotelniki Embankment" is too much Englishing on my part. Kotelnicheskaya Embankment is fine for me. There is no need to keep "naberezhnaya" in English, as there is an equivalent English word. --Ghirlandajo 23:40, 20 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Well, there's an eqivalent English word for kotelniki too - boilermakers. My point is that we should either translate the whole name (which is not a very good idea for the reasons mentioned above), or not translate it at all. So, I believe that both, "Kotelniki Embankment" and "Kotelnicheskaya Embankment" are poorly choosen names, while "Kotelnicheskaya embankment" is fine. The difference is subtle, but important: in the latter case the word "embankment" is not part of the name (so, it's not capitalized). The name is just Kotelnicheskaya, and the word "embankment" is used to disambiguate or provide context where needed. Do you think that makes sense? Azov 08:34, 21 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry I don't. Embankment is имя нарицательное, so it should be translated. Kotelnicheskaya is имя собственное, so it should be kept as it is. --Ghirlandajo 08:50, 21 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Гм, ладно, кроме нас тут всё равно никого нет, так что можно и по-русски :-) Есть два варианта. Можно считать, что в словосочетании "Котельническая набережная" слово "Котельническая" - это, собственно, и есть название набережной, и оно - имя собственное. А слово "набережная" - соответственно, нарицательное. Тогда в переводе на английский мы получим "Kotelnicheskaya embankment" (заметь, что в этом случае embankment надо писать с маленькой буквы). Альтернативно, можно считать что "Котельническая набережная" - это неделимый топоним, включающий оба слова. Примерно как в названии улицы Кузнецкий мост слово "мост" - не имя нарицательное, а составная часть имени собственного. В этом варианте слово "набережная" не переводится. Оба варианта нормальные, но в зависимости от того, какой выбрать - использоваться название будет по-разному. Согласен? Azov 21:35, 21 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Similar Sructures

It seem that there are two building similar outside russia one in Warsaw and the other one in Bucharest. http://66.249.93.104/search?q=cache:8HPVNB_pKhUJ:skyscraperpage.com/cities/%3FbuildingID%3D30446+Casa+Presei&hl=en http://skyscraperpage.com/cities/?buildingID=1117

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