Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jehovah's Witnesses reference works

Jehovah's Witnesses reference works

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Insufficient third-party sources. Individual publications fail notability guideline for books. See Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Jehovah's_Witnesses#JW_publications Jeffro77 (talk) 08:12, 12 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Keep – There seems to be only book-related sources, but the sources seem to be pretty reliable. It is also a pretty well-written article. It would be very much a pity if the authors wouldn't be allowed to have this article left in the article space, because of the authors times of writing it. For example: If the authors of this article have spent a total of 2 hours on the article, it is the same thing as that the authors have lost a total of 2 hours of their lifes, just because the article got deleted. Also, this article is more than 1 year old, so I think and believe that it is too late to nominate this article. Heymid (talk) 09:21, 12 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Most of the sources are published by the Watch Tower Society, the publisher of the publications in question. Of the nine non-Watchtower sources, one is an irrelevant link to Wiktionary about usage of the word 'indices', five are passing references to the Watchtower Index, and the remaining three (which contain the only notable statements) each refer to one single source.--Jeffro77 (talk) 09:26, 12 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I was the primary author, as a concession for separate articles that existed for each of the books previously, and having given a warning that they may not be retained. I don't mind.--Jeffro77 (talk) 09:26, 12 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Reply to Jeffro77: If you were the primary author of the article, and because you nominated this article for deletion by yourself, I would suggest you to put the {{Db-g7}} template in the article, which basically marks the article for speedy deletion in a category on English Wikipedia. Heymid (talk) 17:05, 13 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I was the primary editor on this article, however it was adapted from previous articles about each of the individual books, and figured there may still be some contention.--Jeffro77 (talk) 01:03, 14 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Christianity-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 14:24, 12 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Literature-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 14:25, 12 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 14:25, 12 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Delete, Wikipedia is not an evangelical resource for any religion. Guy (Help!) 14:43, 12 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - could not find significant coverage by independent reliable sources to establish notability.--70.80.234.196 (talk) 17:35, 12 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Clearly, Wikipedia does NOT discriminate against any religion, and we aren't going to start with the Jehovah's Witnesses. There is nothing "evangelical" about the tone of this article, and the subject is not "unencyclopedic" simply because it refers to religion, anymore so than on articles about the literature issued by other religious authorities. The "Proclaimers book" is probably notable enough [1] for its own article [2], and the same could be said about other publications [3] [4] [5] [6]. Although I'd prefer this lone article to lots of individual articles about different texts, I'd prefer lots of individual articles to no information at all. Mandsford 18:20, 13 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If you believe this to be discriminatory, can you please indicate similar articles for publications of other religious groups? The reason for deleting isn't because of being "unencyclopedic", but because the subject doesn't have sources indicating it to be "notable".

Other publications citing a JW publication to indicate a JW belief isn't the same as discussion of a notable publication. It is sufficient to briefly indicate any notable publications at Jehovah's Witnesses publications.--Jeffro77 (talk) 01:03, 14 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Nonsense. Bhaktivinode (talk) 04:12, 16 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This again? A similar 2009 AfD by the same nominator was rejected by an administrator, and this one should be rejected also.

Editors unfamiliar with Jehovah's Witnesses should keep in mind that JWs release at least three or four new publications every year, and nearly every title has an initial run of several million. While those titles are not necessarily notable for Wikipedia's purposes, this article doesn't seek to discuss all those titles (the majority of those titles can properly be relegated to a mere list or a general discussion). These few titles (which are each discussed in a section of this article) are significantly more notable; each of these books is a bona fide reference work coincidentally (or not) published by Jehovah's Witnesses. These few titles are significantly more notable even than most evangelical materials with runs of several million.

Previous to the creation of this particular article, several notable publications of Jehovah's Witnesses each had an individual article. Among them:

Ironically, Jeffro77, the editor who here nominates this article for deletion, actually CREATED this article Jehovah's Witnesses reference works .

So, "Insight on the Scriptures" was an article since February 2005 about a notable print encyclopedia with millions in circulation; that is, until Jeffro77 (who here nominates this article for deletion) consolidated that article's material with other notable titles in May 2009. Similarly, "Reasoning from the Scriptures" was an article since June 2005 about what is perhaps the best-known JW reference work; that is, until Jeffro77 consolidated that second article's material also in May 2009. Even more interesting is "Aid to Bible Understanding", an article since February 2005 about an earlier notable print encyclopedia with millions in circulation . That title had survived an earlier AfD; interestingly, one of those 2005 AfD commenters suggested created an article for Jehovah's Witnesses reference works. Did Jeffro77 know that a previous nomination to delete detailed discussion of Aid to Bible Understanding . had been rejected by an administrator? In any event, Jeffro77 is the editor who moved the "Aid..." material from its own article to the new article Jeffro himself had created, also in May 2009.

It would seem that Jeffro77 has bided his time for a year, at first merely diluting notable titles alongside others, but now relaunching his effort to delete detailed discussion of notable JW book titles, in this case a handful of books which are official reference works of a major religion. Doesn't it seem remarkably odd to shoot directly for deletion without giving {{Template:Refimprove}} or a similar template even a moment to work? Editors should be assured that it would be time-consuming but boringly straightforward to collect the dozens (perhaps hundreds) of additional references showing the notability of these titles. Again, odd that an AfD is the first choice of an experienced editor such as Jeffro77. Odd for an editor to try and delete an article he himself had created a year earlier.

Jeffro77 is himself a former Jehovah's Witnesses, having discussed his "firsthand experience" with expulsion from the religion, as well as his "close contact" and his claimed personal observations, such as how "elderly Witnesses are largely ignored". Regarding JW publications and JWs themselves, Jeffro77 has claimed that they evade taxes, inflate their statistics, abuse human rights, receive "emotional coercion", are "pharisaic", and "morally bereft". Before being rejected by an administrator, Jeffro's 2009 AfD was only seconded by one other editor, BlackCab aka LTSally, a self-described "ex-JW" editor who had previously declared himself "sickened" by the "claustrophobic, sycophantic, incestuous" Jehovah's Witnesses.

Editors and administrators who are less directly affected by Jehovah's Witnesses should reject the efforts of a former JW (such as Jeffro77) to delete this article, as administrators have rejected similar AfD's in the past for titles such as "Shining as Illuminators in the World". and "Aid to Bible Understanding". The fact is that Wikipedia is well-served by a detailed discussion of a handful of individually-notable but related publications. This discussion in this article should be in addition to a mere list or general discussion of the hundreds of other JW titles of lesser notability.
--AuthorityTam (talk) 19:51, 17 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]