Talk:Modal jazz

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Appearances aside, there is no "I" in Wikipedia. I'm going to try to revise this into an encyclopedia article rather than an essay. -- Dreamword 19:48 Feb 12, 2003 (UTC)

Correction: Dorian <> minor

The article states "Both of these songs were in Dorian mode meaning they were in a minor mode." Actually, Dorian is like minor, but it has a raised sixth note of the scale:

D dorian is D,E,F,G,A,B,C,D. D minor is D,E,F,G,A,B-flat,C,D.

D dorian is played on all white notes of the piano. A minor is played on all white notes on the piano.

You are forgetting the difference between natural minor, harmonic minor and melodic minor. 82.176.202.214 14:36, 7 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Since there is only one note difference between the scales, most of the chords are the same. A normal dorian triad (D-F-A for D dorian) is the same as a minor triad.

All scales and modes based on the minor third interval from the root are considered minor modes. Aelian, dorian, harmonic and melodic minor are all minor modes.82.176.202.53 (talk) 10:10, 7 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Difficulty improvising on standard changes.

Which musicians exactly said they were having difficulty creating original improvisations on standard changes? This statement needs backing up with quotes from the musicians involved.--Light current 01:27, 27 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Definition of "mode"

I think this article should correct and clarify the definition of "mode". The current article includes this: "Modes are the seven scales used in medieval music which were 'rediscovered' by composers like Claude Debussy and frequently used by 20th century composers."

There are a number of modes which are not based on the WWHWWWH arrangement of the major scale (for example, there are also six other modes of the Melodic Minor scale), and modal jazz is still modal jazz even if it's not based on standard WWHWWWH diatonic modes. There are also a number of modes based on scales of less than or more than seven notes. (For example, pentatonic modes). Any Jazz musician who's improvising on a mode instead of chord changes is playing modally, not just those improvising on modes of the standard western Major scale.

There are a number of types of modal music outside of jazz as well, such as most indian classical ragas, few of which actually use a mode of the major scale as a base.

Well, technically, a mode of a scale is the pitches of that particular scale arranged in a sequential order starting a different root. You can have modes for all of the "natural" scales, like major, natural minor, harmonic minor and melodic minor, as well as modes for the more exotic scales, like the assorted bebop scales, pentatonic scales, etc.Havic5 05:24, 12 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Addition to history section required

This excellent page could be enhanced by expanding on the unique Miles Davis Sextet sessions (that became "Kind of Blue") that recorded modal jazz in 1959 like never before (some of the tracks are used as examples to modal jazz in the following section. It should be noted the role of Bill Evans on this recording and also that he became the leading exponant of this type of music. --Jppigott 14:22, 16 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"All Blues" and "Freddie Freeloader" are not good examples of modal jazz

The article states: "Among the significant compositions of modal jazz were "So What", "Freddie Freeloader," and "All Blues" by Miles Davis and Impressions by John Coltrane. They follow the same AABA song form and were in D Dorian for the A sections and modulated a half step up to E♭ Dorian for the B section."

"So What" and "Impressions" certainly fit this description, but "Freddie Freeloader" and "All Blues" don't, since they both have blues structures, not AABA. It could be argued that they have a modal 'feel', but in terms of the structural and harmonic features of modal jazz as outlined in this article, they don't make a very good example.JTHobbyist 00:05, 2 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Response to above

I agree that "Freddie Freeloader" isn't a good example of modal jazz, "All Blues" is significant though. The part where a normal blues would go to the IV the bass is still playing I, so you could argue that they still play G, just a different mode. It's a brilliant way of taking a blues into modal jazz, so it should be noted as such. Why isn't flamenco sketches in the list? That's the best example on the album together with "So What". --pklinken(noaccount)

I disagree regarding "All Blues". It's a great tune but it does not happen to be a great illustration of modal jazz. The bass I over the IV is nothing more than basso ostinato, people have ben doing this since baroque times. On other recordings of "All Blues" the bass sometimes plays the IV -- in a true modal pice that wouldn't work. kibi 17:36, 8 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ofcourse playing the IV in the 'IV' part will work, it's a blues. The point i was trying to make is that it is a good illustration of using modal elements in a blues form, which is one of the most important forms in jazz after all. I also dont think it's just a basso ostinato, as the bass plays the root and the seventh of I, also in the IV part, on the strong beats, suggesting more I minor than IV dominant. So im not saying it's a great illustration of modal jazz, but it's significant because it uses modal elements, if you agree, in a blues form. Btw, I just had a peek at my copy of Kind of Blue and in the liner notes Bill Evans writes: ""All Blues" is a 6/8 12-measure blues form that produces its mood through only a few modal changes and Miles Davis' free melodic conception." --pklinken(noaccount)

You need to add "Maiden Voyage" by Herbie Hancock. It's another perfect example of modal jazz, while it uses all sus. chords it is build entirely off of the modes for each chord respectivly, althought the mode does change with each chord change. "Feddie Freeloader" and "All Blues" are bad examples of modal jazz, "So What" and "Impressions" are though. --67.173.255.205 03:34, 10 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

All Blues IS an example of modal jazz, and an understated one at that. Miles wrote it specifically to take modal music and mold it with the blues form. He does this for the first 8 bars of the form, and then for the last four returns to a tertian-chord based harmony. In response to kibi, one, Miles conciously used the musical element of the ostinato as a means of implying modal music, rather than simply another layer underneath chordal harmony. If you listen Bill Evan's comping during the solos for measures 6 and 7, he is voicing G minor 7 chords, indicative of a change of mode, rather than C7 chords. The form is there, but the chord change definitely isn't there. Two, other people's interpretations really "don't count". I know that many people play All Blues as a standard blues-type form, and that's what is (wrongly) notated in the Real Book, but that's not what Miles intended at all. You only have to listen to the original recording to hear the very present elements of modal jazz.Havic5 05:19, 12 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Theory Section

The article at present states: "Other non-diatonic notes, such as the note Bb, are dissonant within the C ionian mode, so that they are less used in non-modal jazz songs when playing the chord C." This can't be right. The flat seventh is a classic blue note. I don't think it's use is particular to modal jazz. I don't know enough about modal jazz to make this say what was meant though. 98.212.24.141 (talk) 05:13, 14 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It's a blue note, as you say. As such, it is likely to be used very sparingly in modal jazz, which has diatonicism and form as its only structural properties (rather than, for instance, chord progressions). Thus, one would be unlikely to find it as anything else than a passing tone, if at all.82.176.202.53 (talk) 10:13, 7 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The article states that it's "less used in non-modal jazz." Should it say "less used in modal jazz" instead? 71.127.76.235 (talk) 19:12, 21 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I would say so. 82.176.202.53 (talk) 10:10, 26 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Standards

The old list of modal and post-bop jazz standards was just merged&redirected to (the now fully-referenced) List of jazz standards (per discussion at talk). You may wish to incorporate a small/referenced part of the old/new lists in this article. Just a note. -- Quiddity (talk) 18:56, 18 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]