Talk:Jewish deicide

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Christ killers

I deleted the following sentence which I introdiced myself:

According to the Kingdom of David PBS TV documentary, the latter term is attributed to the preacher John Chrysostom, who introduced it in his cermons against "Judaizers".^[1]</nowiki>

Here is the full translated text of all 8 anti-Judaizer cermons. Indeed, he says that Jews murdered Christ, but I see no immediate indication on a term "Christ killer". (I see phrases "those who slew Christ", "Christ whom they crucified", "slayers of Christ", "those who shed the blood of Christ") It may be a problem or artifact of translation (several are known). Also, this website does not have the source of the translation, hence there is some doubt in translation.

So until I see a WP:RS, supplied with original Greek text, I don't think that the statement is properly grounded and I don't trust American TV to be a reliable source in this respect.

Also the "John Chrysostom" article referring to Walter Laqueur's book mentions the term "assassins of Christ"

In any case "Christ killer" is a typically English language collocation and one must be careful in claiming that some Ancient Roman of Greek "first introduced it".

What do you think, colleagues? Meanwhile I will write something vague to replace. Mukadderat (talk) 00:05, 16 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Here is a ref to 1996 book quoting this (Malcolm Hay, 1950) for "assassins of Christ" term attributed to Chrysostom. Mukadderat (talk) 00:17, 16 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. the article 'Kingdom of David itself requires expert oversight. Mukadderat (talk) 01:48, 16 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Proceeding further

When searching certain antisemitic topics in wikipedia using google I could not help but notice that there is an enormous amount of content duplication in the "Antisemitism" domain, and some of it starts diverging and turning into chaos, while other sits cut-and-pasted neglected and unreferenced. It particular, I would strongly recommend you'all to refresh familiarity with wikipedia:Summary style. IMO it will help to cope with this text bloating due to duplication.

Do you have any wikiProject which keeps an eye from the "bird's-eye view"? If not I'd advise to have one.

Anyway, I wrote the separate "Jewish deicide" article, mostly by cut'n'paste from wikipedia and subsequent removal of errors and nonsense. And I linked it from surprisingly many wikipedia article, so I am wondering why the idea to write in did not occur to someone earlier.

I don't think I will continue to elaborate it (only watch against vandalism). Therefore I would like you to ask three things:

Address the concern in section #Christ killers above
Expand/fix the article
Optionally find a better article title (I hope it will happen without move wars)

Good luck, bye, Mukadderat (talk) 01:48, 16 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Similar claims in islam

I've noticed that many muslim extremists have apparently transformed the charge of deicide into that of murderers of prophets (cf article in The Atlantic [1]). Some of them believe that jews had treated both Jesus and Mohammad quite unfairly, although there is lack of consensus on their part into many aspects of Jesus's human and divine life and also on the cause of death of Mohammad. ADM (talk) 15:28, 22 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Serious problem with the "deicide" term

Christians differ, in spite of the widespread "adherence" to the Nicene Creed, as to whether or not Jesus was God; a concept defined as Incarnation, and iconised in the concept of the Trinity. It is only according with a "Jesus == God" concept and point of view, that the "deicide" term has any relevance, and even in this context the notion that any human being(s) could actually kill (a, the) God is reasonably ludicrous. So the "deicide" term is a canard, and it should be stated so, and of course including the above explanation, distinguishing the canard as associated with a particular Christological concept. -Ste vertigo 00:23, 10 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

What is your verifiable source claiming it is a "canard?" Slrubenstein | Talk 00:30, 10 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Stevertigo, along with Slrubenstein's point, as far as I am aware almost all significant Christian denominations, aside from perhaps the Jehovah's Witnesses, consider Jesus to be God. Do you have any source for your surprising claim that "Christians differ, in spite of the widespread "adherence" to the Nicene Creed, as to whether or not Jesus was God"? Jayjg ^(talk) 06:36, 10 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

While it does seems a bit of a stretch to go from belief in Jesus's divinity to an outright accusation of Jewish deicide, there should perhaps be discussion on the inherent tension between the doctrinal obligation to strongly affirm the divinity of Jesus against heretical proponents of Arianism and the ethical requirement to oppose a purely political brand of antisemitism. ADM (talk) 15:28, 22 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Deicide before Jesus

There are interesting anthropological theories that talk about the possibility of an archaic or primitive deicide before the time of Jesus. For instance, in the writings of René Girard, it says that Jesus merely reveals an earlier deicide which may have been that of his father Abba. The early victim is sometimes represented as a proto-semitic pastor-hunter (El), who was ritually killed while he was out hunting. ADM (talk) 15:18, 2 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Merge Request

This article seems to discuss exactly the same thing as Responsibility for the death of Jesus. These articles should really be merged and a better title might need to be found. Macfanatic (talk) 01:13, 11 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No, it shouldn't be. I bet you're a jew! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.167.85.17 (talk) 02:52, 15 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Jesus' ethnicity

The fact that Jesus was born jewish would seem to have a bearing on this article. The following paragraph from the Jesus article seems particularly relevant in fact: "Critical Biblical scholars and historians believe that the New Testament is useful for reconstructing Jesus' life. Most agree that Jesus was a Jew who was regarded as a teacher and healer, that he was baptized by John the Baptist, and was crucified in Jerusalem on the orders of the Roman Prefect of Judaea, Pontius Pilate, on the charge of sedition against the Roman Empire." With the way this article is currently structured, there is little to show that this 'jewish deicide' belief is discredited and only maintained as an article about anti semitic attitudes, other than the grouping within the series. It would be rather easy for a careless reader to come away with an incorrect conclusion 124.168.96.24 (talk) 23:51, 8 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

^ See Kingdom of David article for the summary. <nowiki>

[1] See Kingdom of David article for the summary. <nowiki>

[1]