User talk:Blablaaa

August 2010

Blablaa, should you decide to unretire, you may post an unblock request. The reviewing administrator should contact me before taking action, if possible. For any request to be successful, I think you would need to agree not to edit anything related to World War II, and you would have to provide a list of articles you'd like to begin editing and state how you think you could improve those articles. You may remain blocked, or you can take steps to get unblocked. The choice is yours. Jehochman ^Talk 13:41, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Talk page access restored

Hello Blablaaa. It seems that you've had a few accounts impersonating you, which led people to revoke your talk page and e-mail access. I have now discovered that these accounts were not operated by you. As such, I have restored your access to Special:Emailuser and your talk page. --Deskana (talk) 14:18, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

k thanks Blablaaa (talk) 14:20, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

and good timing btw :-) and i guess you misunderstood the edit which you presentet at arbcom. Or better i wrote it wrong Blablaaa (talk) 14:21, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Arbitration Request

I still think there is a need for a scrunity regarding biased editing of several editors at wiki, including coordinators of MILHIST and admins who support this. Iam a bit puzzeled, is it really important if iam blocked or not ? I think its a serious issue. And i never putt any retired tags to my talk, somebody else did. Many hasty decisions were done. Maybe someone would be so kind to bring my opinion to the arbitration. Blablaaa (talk) 12:51, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Advancing conspiracy theories will not get you unblocked, and might get your talk page access rescinded if it degenerates to the point of attacking other editors. The problem is your editing style. Don't try to blame others for problems that are primarily your doing. Jehochman ^Talk 12:59, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Who said that i put emphasis on getting unblocked. Iam note sure but i guess i said more than one time that my conduct is not ok but evolved out of numerous discussion which were done with bad faith. My last try to improve WW2 articles is pointing on the bias editing. And the problems are not primaly my doing iam pretty sure you read the first chapters of the RFC but not the discussion page etc... Blablaaa (talk) 13:05, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

at jehochmann ive done pretty much edits at battle of kursk and added reliable figures to several eastern front articles.Blablaaa (talk) 13:13, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

and iam still puzzeled where the correlation between my contributions and biased editing of other is. Blablaaa (talk) 13:14, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment

Hello Blablaaa, I do realize you would rather edit here on this wiki where your contributions reach a much larger audience than on de:w. However I would like to remind and assure you that you would always be welcome to return to de:w should your position here become untenable due to the hostility shown to you by a certain section of the community on this project. I feel I can say with confidence that this is also the position of the military history community on de:w. Regards, --Prüm (talk) 01:51, 8 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Tag, at the moment iam pretty busy but i guess i will work again at the german wiki later. Thanks for your kindly request. Grüße Blablaaa (talk) 14:47, 8 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Some more specific comments

I guess here you overdid it. I hope you can agree that such one-sided argument-pushing is very disruptive. My advice would be that you try (for the moment at least) to limit your contributions to the subjects you feel most comfortable with and knowledeable in and leave other interesting stuff for later.
in this and this case I fully concur with you. Bad sources such as those really shouldn't be used.

These were some of the arguments I found you had with other editors since you began editing here. I really didn't check closely though. If there's more you would like to draw my attention to, or indeed if you would appreciate any help with currently ongoing arbitration efforts, please let me know. --Prüm (talk) 22:13, 8 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

okBlablaaa (talk) 22:24, 8 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Arbitration regarding MILHIST bias

Is it necessary to get unblocked, before somebody deals with the issue which was raised by me? In a quick overview i showed that 4 out of 5 featured article of an MILHIST editor have incorrect outcomes in the box all this mistakes favor "his" armed forces. I thought this should be enough to draw attention. We talk about featured articles. The talk page which was linked by me, was also expected to alert some neutral editors. Currently i'm a bit puzzeled, why is my status as editor important for this case? Can somebody who is more fimiliar with the rules, answer these questions please. If i have to fill a unblock request to bring an investigation on the way then i will do so. If the community decides that there is no issue and iam wrong then i will accept this. So would finally somebody be so kind and take some minutes to check my "accusations"? I hope for some clarification Blablaaa (talk) 14:58, 8 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Reply to Carcharoth: I consider this no content dispute. Its not about being right or wrong regarding content, its about systematic bias. Admins and coordinators misuse sources and do selective quoting and so on. Featured article became bias article due to selective editing of some user. In a quick overview i have shown a MILHIST coordinator doing blatant selective quoting, some words were ripped out of a sentence to support his POV. He is still coordinator, no warning for him. Nobody told him that he violates wiki rules. Users make jokes about this "cabal". But its meats the creteria for bein some kind of cabal. If MILHIST editors who support the standart POV engage in WP:OR selective quoting for example, nobody cares. Iam still hoping that somebody is taking some minutes to check my arguments. Blablaaa (talk) 19:50, 8 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In addition: While i admit that my conduct was not optimal, i generally assume that the real problem were my points. If you tell a biased editor that he edits bias and you give him evidence, what should he do ? He denies... He distracts.... . Thats what iam talking about, the MILHIST supports each other , nobody wants to accuse a "friend" of violating the rules. Not sure how much MILHIST admins said iam wrong regarding the misuse of sources, but after i went to neutral admins all involved neutral editors supported me. Finally i was correct but every involved MILHIST editor denied. They back each other up. MILHIST Admins denied violation of wiki rules, neutral admins showed clearly that they were wrong. Nothing happened... No apologize, no discussion about solving the underlying issue. Your suggestion to improve this via military boards was considered before by me and i tried but it failed. Even the most obvious misuse of source was tolerated until neutral admins intervened. Blablaaa (talk) 19:59, 8 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Blablaa, I can see how there could be more than one view of the outcome of a battle, as a battle can have more than one objective. If it had say three objectives - rescue Maid Marian from the castle, kill the Sherriff and stop Guy of Gisborne getting away with the treasure, but only succeeds in one (Marian is rescued) then this would probably be portrayed as a victory in a film starring Kevin Costner. If the Sherrif and Gisborne are killed and the treasure recaptured, but Marian has been sold to white slavers and is now on her way to the Barbary Coast, then that's a failure, even though Robin Hood now has (a) no enemies and (b) the means to buy Marian back if he can find her.

Real battles are more complicated, and can have complex interlocked objectives, or even opposing objectives, so it is possible for there to be multiple views on how successful or otherwise an action was. Is holding up the enemy for only two days, but escaping with light casualties, 'better' than holding up the enemy for four days while losing 50% of one's strength. Is it enough to have contained that tank unit, without being able to destroy them? And so on.

But, if you want to make a case that a pro-Allied or pro-British or anti-German view is being presented systematically, you must provide diffs. List some examples here on your talkpage, and let others have a look at them now.--Elen of the Roads (talk) 13:47, 9 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

the outcomes of the battles are written in nearly every book, there is no doubt about this. I ask why the user forgets to include this, he includes all scales of warfare which were "won" by allied but forgots to add the failures. Thats no content dispute thats selective editing. Nobody claims operation perch was not a british failure, but the user added "inconclusive" without any citiation. Epsom the same, here he forgots to include the operational scale. Brevity the same. This is no content dispute. A user puts wrong outcomes to featured articles. Blablaaa (talk) 14:01, 9 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

it would be appreciated if user jehochmann gives an opinion regarding the 4 featured article and jutlant talk instead of claiming i presented nothing. If my points are unsubstantial then show, it must be pretty easy. So user jehochmann would it be possible for you to give a definite and especially mandatory comment? I guess not... Blablaaa (talk) 14:32, 9 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Please read Unterseeboot 853 and let me know if that's a fair article or not. Jehochman ^Talk 14:28, 9 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Your question implies you missed the point. A article regarding an uboot is hard to bias because their are less aspects which are open to interpretation. Its an article which simply lists hard facts. Or maybe your question is kinda joke, then i ask myself why you not took the time to refute my claims. If my claims are hilarious you should be able to refute them pretty fast. With regards... Blablaaa (talk) 14:36, 9 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I wrote most of this article and am quite familiar with it, and at the same time, am quite confident that the sourcing and neutrality are pretty good. (It is a good article.) My point in asking is to see whether you'll acknowledge that I am competent to evaluate content for compliance with Wikipedia policies. If you agree I am competent, all you need to do is point me to the articles, sections and diffs, or discussions, where you think somebody has been damaging Wikipedia. I will surely take great interest in any such thing, if it is happening. Jehochman ^Talk 14:40, 9 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Be so kind and give your opinion to the outcomes of the featured articles.Operation Perch Operation Epsom Operation Brevity Blablaaa (talk) 14:43, 9 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

and [[1]] the whole discussion is joke. People defend their desired outcome and do selective quoting ( parsecyboy(MILHIST coordinator at 02:11, 23 July 2010 (UTC) ) and OR. Blablaaa (talk) 14:53, 9 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I wasn't planning on becoming involved with this discussion, but because my name was brought up, I'll make a comment. The "selective quoting" Blablaaa refers to can be found here; I omitted "or partial victories" as irrelevant, since Tarrant ascribed a partial victory to neither Great Britain or Germany. Moreover, the thrust of Tarrant's statement was that the battle was inconclusive, not "it was inconclusive strategically but tactically a German victory," the meaning Blablaaa has foisted upon the quotation (specifically here, where Blablaa states "it only says both failed to cripple the the ofter but its doesnt say it was inconclusive, both had failed but still germany hat the tactical edge"). Parsecboy (talk) 20:24, 9 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You took a statement of an historian and cut exactly 3 words out of the sentence. Exact the words which make the statement not fully supporting you. What you did is the very defintion of selective quoting. Instead of admiting this you now try to explain why you replaced three words with "..." . Generic.Blablaaa (talk) 20:32, 9 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I cut out three words that were irrelevant to Tarrant's point, which is that the battle was tactically inconclusive. He does not explain what he means by "partial victory", and it is not within our powers to assume he what he means. The excised words do not contradict what I said he meant, and they certainly don't support what you claim. An example of selective quoting would have been if I had redacted something along the lines of "though it was a tactical German victory." I did no such thing, and I'll not stand for you to continue to paint it as though I had. Parsecboy (talk) 20:41, 9 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

lol tarrant says the battle belongs to the series of inconclusive battles or partial victories... and you cut out "or partial victories". Seriously.... 20:50, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Can you explain to me where Tarrant says it was a German tactical victory? Until you can provide me with a quotation, your interpretation of the line I quoted is patently false. If you want to speak of misrepresenting sources, I'd suggest you look in the mirror before you start pointing fingers. Parsecboy (talk) 20:55, 9 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I dont claim he meant something. I never used tarrain to cite something . YOU used him to cite inconclusive. I said he said this battle belongs to a series of battle which were inconclusive or partial victories. While you claim it was "inconclusive" you deliberatly cut "partial victory" out of his statements. Sorry but even with maximum AGF i dont see another reason for doing this than selective quoting. And iam very sure if a neutral admin investigates this he comes to the same conclusion, thats why i think further discussion between us is not helping. here a comment of an neutral user [[2]] Blablaaa (talk) 21:01, 9 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

First, please do not edit my comments. I cut "partial victory" because he did not say who won the alleged partial victory, nor that it even was one. The point of Tarrant's statement was that the battle was tactically inconclusive. I understand English is not your primary language, but if you cannot understand the intricacies of the language, then you need to remain on de.wiki until you have a firmer grasp. Parsecboy (talk) 01:35, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If I can chime in here, why are you so intent on proving that Jutland was a tactical German victory that you insert no less than 22 (!) references in the infobox, some of which are far from the best sources on the subject, to support your claims? Issues open to interpretation such as this one should be thoroughly discussed in the appropriate chapters of the article, an infobox is definitely the wrong place. --Prüm (talk) 21:20, 9 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I wanted to avoid that people say this is only one source, i had a brief talk at the discussion page and saw the "attitude" so i thought 1 2 or 3 sources are not enough. My assumption was correct not even 90 sources were enough to change the outcome..... Blablaaa (talk) 21:26, 9 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

So you checked all the books you could find there was not a single contradicting view? --Prüm (talk) 21:32, 9 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The ratio of gtv/ti is 5+/1. Fact is "tactical inconclusive" is the worst possible choise for the box. Blablaaa (talk) 21:45, 9 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You need to concentrate on the most relevant sources. What do they say? As for the question tactical victory or not I offer you 2 facts: 1) The Germans were chased back into their ports, having failed in their objective to inflict a crippling blow on the British. Usually this is taken to imply that they lost the battle, operationally. (I am of the opinion that there can be no "tactical victories", what's that supposed to mean anyways?) 2) The ships sunk and manpower losses sustained cannot be the the only factor for evaluating this battle. It is natural that ship explosions lead to unusually high casualty numbers. The damages suffered by the HSF were very severe, so much so that it had strategic effects, it couldn't operate for a year or two. --Prüm (talk) 21:57, 9 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

i dont present my opinion regarding the outcome.Blablaaa (talk) 22:04, 9 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That's a very wise thing to do. But you must prove that the opinions of 90 or so authors you present reflect the overwhelming expert opinion on the subject if you want to claim it in the article. Unless you can do that you should respect the judgement of other more experienced editors. --Prüm (talk) 22:36, 9 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree. The box has to reflect the common view of reliable secondary sources. If you can find such amount of sources which claim something different then it dont belongs to the box. Even if "tactical inconclusive" would be more common ( its not! ) it would be inapt for the box. "Disputed" or whatever would be better. I also stepped back from "german tactical victory" while it is the most present view. Some suggestion for simple facts in the box were made but all not accepted by this editors. I want to highlight that the "more experienced users" presented 1 source which not even claimed what they want. And while talking about this source some words were cut out of the statement. Blablaaa (talk) 22:55, 9 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Again, it's not a "tactical victory" because some ships exploded. That's basically human/procedural error. "Tactical victory" implies a victory due to superior tactics (evidently not the case), or one achieved at the tactical level. How do you explain then that it ended in German withdrawal and British pursuit? Losing ships is one thing but gaining "the edge", as you call it, is certainly the other. I'm not saying all these authors are wrong, but I guess they can not really be considered "experts" or they simply use the wrong terms. --Prüm (talk) 23:55, 9 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Prüm, you are exactly right. The general consensus amongst historians of the battle is that in terms of tactics Hipper inflicted serious damage on Beatty and that Jellicoe badly outmaneuvered Scheer in the main fleet action. Most of the sources provided by Blablaaa are expert sources, while most experts, like Tarrant and Marder, agree that it was tactically inconclusive. Parsecboy (talk) 01:35, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

historians decide what the outcome of jutland was. And most historian say indeed is was a tactical victory because of twice the BRT loss. So its high likly that the problems is somewhere else. IF they think this makes a tactical victory then we display this. Blablaaa (talk) 01:29, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

can you give the quote where tarrants said this please. Blablaaa (talk) 02:02, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

i do it for you From the tactical point of view, since neither fleet was able to inflict a crippling blow on the other, Jutland belongs to the series of inconclusive battles or partial victories which are the rule in naval warfare. , this is the quote which allows you to ignore dozen of other sources? Blablaaa (talk) 02:10, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Prüm, I think a lot of the confusion here has to do with the fact that tactical victory is particular jargon with one definition of "a victory where the losses of the defeated outweigh those of the victor". Regardless of whether the Battle of Jutland was tactically inconclusive or a tactical victory for Germany, I find it difficult to imagine that our Battle of Jutland could omit the fact that at least 90 sources, including people such as Winston Churchill and widely-read sources such as encyclopedias (e.g.,number 3 "World War I: encyclopedia. M - R, Volume 3:"Over the German claim to tactical victory there can be little disagreement") call it a tactical victory for the Germans. Blablaa seems correct in that if a bunch of sources - including many tertiary sources which in general reflect the general viewpoint - say it was a tactical victory for Germans while a few others (perhaps more specialized in the area) call it tactically inconclusive, settling on tactically inconclusive does not seem proper. If nothing else it inserts the simplified impression into the reader's mind when the reader should be informed of the general perspective. II | (t - c) 02:23, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

always a pleasure to read your posts. Blablaaa (talk) 02:26, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

ImperfectlyInformed, I see your point, but as I said, issues such as this one can discussed in detail, or if you prefer ad nauseam, in the appropriate chapters, while the infobox should stick to the most cautious/neutral estimation of the outcome. Btw., I believe tertiary sources are a bad choice to base one's conclusions on. And even if Churchill says so it doesn't mean he's right. --Prüm (talk) 05:41, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

break

I will not comb through a large volume of material to try to find what you might be concerned about. Please point out your best example(s) of bias and I will look at those. Which article is most inaccurate? Which section, which comments and which editors? I've skimmed Operation Perch and it's FAC. Nothing jumps out at me as being wrong. What there concerns you? Jehochman ^Talk 15:10, 9 August 2010 (UTC) Ähm i said this before. The 3 featured article had all wrong/incomplete outcomes in the infobox, the 4th misinterpreted a source in the infobox. No content dispute at all, the outcomes are clear but were "forgotten". I thought incorrect outcome in 4out of5 articles is good for at least drawing attention. But its not all. But iam short of time so i have no intention to dig around and write "essays" if nobody takes a look. So it would be awesome could give a clear statement regarding the outcomes. Blablaaa (talk) 16:10, 9 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

[[3]] here he adds inconclusive, without citiation. The battle is a british failure thats the common view. No content dispute here. Same applies for his other featured articles aswell. The casualties section is also highly selective and misleading and some numbers which i checked doesnt fit with the sources. I asked him for clarification and exact quotes but he didnt respond. The article claims 12 SS casualties as representive but forgets to mention that during perch the canadians also attacked the same german units which are listed in perch. The 12 SS for example was mainly engage against canadians, but no mention of this. Then british units are "forgotten" in the casualties section while german units are given which had their main engagements elsewhere. Candians who suffered "heavy" casualties during perch timeframe are no mentioned... . The problem with all these stuff is that knowledge about this topic is needed to understand the problem. Thats why i gave the outcomes as first example, there is no need to be a normandy expert to understant that 3 wrong out comes are more than "mistakes" Blablaaa (talk) 16:25, 9 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see wrongdoing by others, but I see very difficult communications with you, and an unhelpful approach. Jehochman ^Talk 18:38, 9 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

you dont see a problem with wrong outcomes? can you clarify ? I pointed on wrong outcomes. You think wrong outcomes are ok or do you think the outcomes arent incorrect. Blablaaa (talk) 19:12, 9 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Blablaaa, please moderate your tone. The issue at hand as I see it, is not the factual accuracy of your contributions or the perceived bias of MILHIST, but your manner of integrating into the community and your approach when engaging in discussions. Remember that other editors are often more experienced than you both in historical matters and in editing the Wikipedia and don't always try to outwit them. It's not gonna work. --Prüm (talk) 19:42, 9 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

So you wont comment on the outcomes? Blablaaa (talk) 19:50, 9 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I spoke about that before elsewhere, as you know, and see no need to repeat it here as that is not the issue. The problem is, quite simpy, that you can't work here, whether it concerns improving battle boxes or writing articles, as long as your activities continue to lead to blocks. Think hard on the reasons for your repeated blocks, and develop an understanding of why some editors here are none too pleased with some of your argument style, rashness and accusations of bad faith. --Prüm (talk) 20:06, 9 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

lol i thought you were user jehochman. Missverständiss... :-)Blablaaa (talk) 20:09, 9 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Summary of this discussion posted on the Request for Arbitration

Per an Arbitrator's request, I have posted a summary on the Request for Arbitration. Please let me know if it is incomplete or does not accurately represent the views expressed. Alexandr Dmitri (talk) 14:22, 9 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thoughts on behavior

Hi, I was/am writing up a bit of a defense of you at the ArbCom case, but I was wondering - do you think you could quit all these bias and lying attacks? You can say people are wrong, or that people are refusing to abide by policy, but if you do you should word it as nicely as possible. If you're not going to play nice, I don't think you've got much of a chance. This place has enough problems with name-calling and emotional reactions, and it's really counterproductive to your efforts to contribute to these problems. II | (t - c) 03:32, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

yesBlablaaa (talk) 11:26, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, that's not convincing. You've been disruptive for a long time. You're not going to go back into the same areas and resume what you were doing. Mistakes have consequences. Jehochman ^Talk 11:46, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hi jehochmann can you give a comment to the outcomes of the featured articles? Blablaaa (talk) 12:03, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Perusing them, nothing jumps off the pages as a shocking violation of Wikipedia norms. Jehochman ^Talk 13:40, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I dont know if it jumps off the pages or not for you. I gave very specific examples. The outcomes in the infoboxes. They are wrong. Or they were wrong until i changed them. I also dont know what you consider a "shocking violation of Wikipedia norms". If a user puts in 80% of his articles wrong/incorrect outcomes then i considere this bad for aims of wiki. I guess, i have to ask more specific. I showed to you that he put a wrong outcome to the Perch box and showed that he forgot to put the correct outcome to the Epsom box. I showed wrong outcome in Brevity Box. I showed that he mishandled a source in the charnwood outcome. All featured articles. You see no problem with this?Blablaaa (talk) 13:50, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

People make errors all the time. If you politely point out an error, and show a source that evidences your position, the other editor may agree with you. Jehochman ^Talk 14:16, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Pointing on these "errors" brought long discussion but no improvement at all. In most cases the final reply to me was "drop the stick" in other instance neutral admins were neccessary to change the "error". If editors are not willing to admit errors then this becomes problematic for wiki, doesnt it? The editors follow this discussion here but they dont change the "errors", they wait until somebody else does. For me this indicates a limited readiness to change "errors". Furthermore, 80% is pretty high for errors in my opinion. Blablaaa (talk) 14:34, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Complicated issue.....Blablaaa (talk) 15:04, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Unblock

Can somebody tell me if it is necessary to get unblocked before i can make a case at the arbitration committe? Is it possible to make this via email or something else? Can a clerk or somebody who is fimiliar with the rules answer these questions? With regards Blablaaa (talk) 03:28, 13 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]