Talk:Principles of NLP

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This article requires deletion. It was set up by NLP fanatics because arbitration and mediation would not allow them to promote their vested interests on the main NLP article. It is only here as an opportunity to promote NLP. Its basically wikispam. HeadleyDown 14:17, 2 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Please refrain from personal insults and assume good faith. The discussion below is in favour of keeping the articles separate. Peace. Metta Bubble 05:47, 3 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Who did I insult personally? And good faith was what I assumed for months. Bad behaviour of NLP fanatics was the result, including their directing personal insults such as wanker, cunt, etc to myself. So take a running jump, your sanctimonious bullshit is as misguided as your belief in NLP. HeadleyDown 13:47, 3 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

My first post was in reference to your comments:

"set up by fanatics" -- a personal attack specifically targetting the creator(s) of this page
"promote their vested interests" -- an assumption of bad faith

I have refered your subsequent comments to WP:WQA. If you have concerns over any specific edits I have introduced please don't be afraid to discuss them civilly. Peace. Metta Bubble 05:02, 4 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Mettabubble, you are evading discussion just as your promotional NLP teammates have consistently evaded discussion. It has been abundantly clear that you have no satisfactory answer to the issue of this article being just another opportunity for more NLP promotion. HeadleyDown 03:08, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Headley, you were warned about WP:NPA as a result of another editor posting a WP:WQA alert the same day I did. I am not evading you personally or your arguments. It's merely your uncivil behaviour (which is obviously not serving your interests anyway). Drop the behaviour and I will gladly engage with you or any other editor acting in good faith. It is worth noting that I currently believe you are acting in good faith. It's the incivility I'm evading. If I thought you were acting in bad faith, I wouldn't even post this response. Peace. Metta Bubble 05:33, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Mettabubble, if I made an attack in my last post, then point it out clearly. If you do not answer the issue of NLP promotion, you will further damage your already shaky credibility. You are still trying to evade discussion. HeadleyDown 07:46, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Suggestions; Basically just write your "how to" in a wikibook instead

Firstly, overall, there is absolutely no need for such a huge section on NLP principles. The effect of this subpage is to turn the article in to a “how to”. Moreover, it is highly promotional and deliberately narrowing to a single vague view. NLP is full of self-promotional terms. That is it’s bread and butter. There is no actual result to any of this. NLP has been largely found to be ineffective. If you want to write on wikipedia, you need balance.

You talk of denying holism. This would need a set of sources (more than 3) as NLP is does actually state holism in some of its books.

The NLP described by Bandler and Andreas have had no balance through science at all. That is biased. They both promote and say vague things, there is no explanation.

You state that NLP promoters promise much but on slender or no evidence. You would be more specific if you state that the only evidence they supply is anecdotal.

You show bias again: According to Jane Revell, a British NLP trainer, the presuppositions of NLP "are not a philosophy or a credo or a set of rules and regulations. Rather, they are assumptions upon which individuals base future actions and plan for meaningful learning experiences." [1] Her’s is only one view. There are many views within NLP about those presuppositions, including highly spiritual perspectives (James 2000)

Map and territory (Korzybski) is unbalanced. You need to show the view of science (which is against Korzybski’s view). That would require a lot of words.

Openendedness is not the problem. There are many eclectic fields that remain unpseudoscientific. Use whatever works is truly as pseudoscientific excuse.

NLP claims to be empirical. It is not empirical in the accepted or acceptable sense or in the scientific sense. There is no way of reliably telling through straight observation whether the model is right or whether it can be successfully universally applied to other general populations. However, true objective empiricism has tested NLP and found it to be ineffective. That does need explaining, but it is done already very clearly and concisely on the main NLP article.

You explain the principles, but fail to relate them to other therapies. For example, normal therapies state that clients are all resistant at some point (due to natural tensions) and to recognize this is being realistic.

Your 90% and 10% information is pseudoscientific and groundless. The fact is, you are taking this principle idea from a purely fringe therapist viewpoint. You have not represented what NLP is mostly about: New age/ self help. I have also read NLP tomes that state we use 1% of our brain, or that communication is 30%words and 70%body language. This is all pseudoscientific talk.

Probably the worst of all, it is highly biased to respond to NLP’s critics without furthering the criticisms of those excuses. All of those excuses have been criticized further and in depth. This page seems to have been added in order to make excuses into conclusions.

Overall, this piece of your own work is unacceptable, unencyclopedic and by and large extremely biased. It narrows the view of NLP to that of the most vague. I understand why you would want to keep it vague (to clarify this section with science would lead to a huge document).

Suggestion. Instead of promoting NLP as is the case here, this NLP “how to” would be better presented as a promotional Wikibook. I’m sure nobody would mind if you snipped this article off and just pasted it into your own new wikibook.HeadleyDown 11:10, 21 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Summary responses:

An NLP principles article is reasonable as the subject is notable, distinct, and substantive in the wikipedia sense.

Evidence should be provided that it is notable. As you have not, it is clear that you cannot. This article should be deleted.HeadleyDown 05:12, 12 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

NLP clearly denies wholism by asserting behavior can be understood and modelled as "the sum of parts" and providing a proposed way to break down behavior into parts. That is classic reductionism.

Sharpley, Eisner, and other such researchers of the subject of NLP have stated that it is wholist. HeadleyDown 05:12, 12 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"The NLP described by..." is a criticism relating to NLP as a whole, not principles of NLP.

You left out the rest of the line. That relates exactly to the principles. HeadleyDown 05:12, 12 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The evidence if any of efficacy is either a criticism on NLP as a whole, or of a specific principle/s. Either way it either isn't relevant, or needs clarifying which exact principle is disputed and by whom.

The principles have been criticised on the main NLP article, and citations provided. This article is redundant. HeadleyDown 05:12, 12 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Map & territory is linked for the full debate. Alternative views and extra information are a good thing, done properly.

Map and territory is not exclusively NLP. Stop representing it as such. HeadleyDown 05:12, 12 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"Use whatever works" is a means not an end. Its use does not determine whether the end is scientific or not. Experts in many sciences, arts and other disciplines also use a similar principle to this, and "use any technique or innovate new ones, to meet new situations."

Use what works is a common statement of pseudoscientists (eg Hubbard). THis needs clarifying in the main NLP article. HeadleyDown 05:12, 12 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Empiricism is (apparently, if you can cite credible sources) disputed. Scientists say NLP is not empirical. NLP practitioners say that everything they do is based upon observation and feedback constantly. So both views might need stating and considering.

This has been dealt with in the pseudoscience section of the main NLP article. HeadleyDown 05:12, 12 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This isnt an article about resistance, its an article about "things NLP is based upon or believes". While it might be interesting to relate this to other therapies, it's basically tangential as this is not listing views on resistance, but summarising NLP's view etc.

This is an article promoting NLP and it is biased. It should be deleted.HeadleyDown 05:12, 12 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

90/10 is citable. Its a view by a renowned NLP author. I will add the citation when I get to dig it up.
The rest is personal opinion, personal remark, and inaccurate.

FT2 01:15, 23 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

FT2. You have provided no evidence of your claims. As you cannot deal with the issues presented, this article should be deleted. HeadleyDown 05:12, 12 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Due to POV warfare-style issues on other NLP pages, I have not had a chance to dig up full citations as yet. There might well be some valid ways for editors to characterize some types of criticisms. If so it would have a place in an article.

The purpose of this article is NLP's principles, not NLP in general. As far as I know, every quote here is sourceable as a principle that is widely held by some informed group about NLP. There may well be others. The problem is, your comments are mostly very general. They are comments about NLP, but very few of them are comments about actual specific principles of NLP. Out of roughly 12 comments I can identify, only a minority seem to be pointing out extra possible information (such as spiritual perspectives on NLP principles). Here's a rough guide for what's needed: if you wish to contribute with value, then it will help if you give it in this format pretty much:

Specific principle which is missing viewpoints: name a specific principle of NLP
(Note: "NLP is wrong/discredited/hype/etc", is not a criticism of a principle, but a criticism of NLP as a whole, and belongs in that article)
Omitted viewpoint: Why that principle is considered by some people a less valid view of the world or similar, or what opinions about it are noteworthy but not documented.
Citations: credible person or people who have stated these views in a verifiable location.
Counter-criticisms: citations if any by others who feel it is correct or the criticism is wrong whether scientists or not. This is something a good researcher does, and you need to learn to do. There are usually citable views for and against ANY viewpoint, often from different fields or approaches. (Indeed, a good researcher will often anticipate this and consider the likely criticisms within their work too). You need to look seriously for them, and also explain in THEIR view not yours, why some others believe as they do, and the basis (if any) for further others (if any) disagreeing, not just expect others to do your work digging this information up.

That is a neutral description that will help you keep on target and within NPOV. The subject here is principles, not NLP as a whole. So it's appropriate to critique specific principles, for example. That's another reason it is split off, the principles form a sizable distinct topic, and splitting off as an article on its own makes it much easier to document notable views for and against.

FT2 01:15, 23 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

This article has already been merged into the main NLP article, so it needs deleting. DaveRight 02:58, 9 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Emerging Project

I agree. We should link the abstract on the main page to the article here. The trouble with diluting the principles into the main page has been the principles become completely nonsensical and inappreciable to a reader. This article has a distinctly differently flavour to the main page. It is presenting what practices you actually find in NLP. The main article is presenting a larger perspective on NLP. Keeping the articles separate helps prevent the 'opinion piece' style and volatility of the main page from polluting well researched information being presented on the principles of NLP. So while I concur that care needs to be taken to defer readers to the main page for a context on NLP, I also concur that the topic of the principles of NLP is notable, distinct, and substantive (and even has a history of it's own that is distinct from the history of NLP that is presented on the main page). I nominate to remove the merge tag from this page as it is discordant with the NLP project team which has begun in good faith and is acting in good faith towards writing an encyclopedia. Peace. Metta Bubble 07:45, 12 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The recent reversion by Mettabubble is further evidence of anti-NPOV promotion of NLP. Those subjects reverted are irrelevant to NLP. As all researchers of the subject of NLP, dianetics, phrenology and other pseudosceinces should understand, the claim to other sciences is bogus and only presented as a promotion ploy. Consider yourself corrected. Any further reversion of such "sources" can be considered intellectual fraud (and the deliberate attempt of promoters to con the public into believing their product is associated with valid subjects). HeadleyDown 07:52, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The External Link Posted By The Creator

The external link I am restoring was posted by the creator of this article. It is clearly a source for the content on this page, both at the time of creation and currently. I agree the website being linked to has some marketing at the bottom and so I would gladly consider a link that doesn't do this. However, as it stands, this is our best external source for the current content on this article.

Please do not revert based on previous biases or problems with other articles. This article is it's own beast and should avoid WP:POINT issues. If anyone would like a third opinion on this, please seek one at the third opinion page. Peace. Metta Bubble 02:48, 12 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Question

Is it true that this article has already been incorporated into Neuro-linguistic programming? · Katefan0^(scribble)/poll 03:25, 12 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No I don't believe so. It was developed by FT2 and others who claimed that mediation was not working, so in addition to making their complaints to arbitrators, they also decided to promote using an NLP wikiproject and then link the main NLP article to the project pages. The reason it has not been incorporated was due to its extreme bias towards the use of promotional language (NLP language contains abundant self-hype and the more you write using NLP viewpoint, the more pseudoscientific promotion you will get) and its links to commercial promotional sites etc. Its just promotion. Its my guess that the NLP project will remain a large promotional opportunity for NLP proponents. Never mind, we can compensate using scientifically based clarity on the main NLP article. HeadleyDown 03:56, 12 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Just to clarify. No merging is necessary. The principles of NLP are very simple and have been represented clearly already in the main NLP article, and as NLP is a how to, any further detailed breakdown of the principles from the NLP view, will be a how to. This article is a promotional how to. HeadleyDown 05:04, 12 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Katefan0. Mettabubble accused me of vandalism [1]. Would you briefly put Mettabubble straight. HeadleyDown 03:58, 12 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Katefan0. I agree that this sub-topic hasn't already been merged. There is support from the wikiproject editors for it to remain separate (as per FT2's discussion above and on other pages). It's been over a month since the merge tag was posted and no one has addressed mine and FT2's reasons for keeping it separate. I am open to discussion on merger. However, I believe posting the merge tag was a misguided mediation action and should never have been done. We should note that "The Principles of NLP" is a term used in all schools of NLP worldwide. All sides agree that the principles of NLP have changed over the years (as new teachers add their own slant). The principles of NLP are core to all NLP training (and they are probably also useful for accurate criticism of NLP). If this article expanded into a history of NLP principles it would be both notable and very different to a general history of NLP. My preference is for the main NLP article have a summarised form of this daughter article. Peace. Metta Bubble 05:42, 12 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

On vandalism: I used the word vandalism to refer to an edit summary that says "see discussion" when the discussion is merely an ad-hominem attack. Peace. Metta Bubble 05:42, 12 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

KetefanO. The "schools" Mettabubble refers to are actually competing factions of NLP. They are pseudoscientists with vested interests at stake. The principles section in the NLP article will be best described using the clarifying (and broader) perspective of science and the respective researchers of the subjects - pseudoscience, NLP, the New Age, and the human potential movement. If NLP promoters are used to present the information, it will only be more of the same promotion. HeadleyDown 06:58, 12 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You need to be speaking with each other as much as me. Part of being a mentor means helping you learn how to work with others here on Wikipedia. · Katefan0^(scribble)/poll 18:50, 12 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

3rd opinion

(as requested on Wikipedia:Third_opinion)
The link used as reference looks like a typical spam URL (nlp-now.co.uk), have you tried finding a source from an educational insitution TLD? Obli (Talk) 17:55, 12 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Principles of NLP Should Be Deleted

The raison d'etre of this article is to subvert editorial efforts towards NPOV and scientific rigour. The content of the article overlaps with the NLP article -- minus any critical opinion -- and it is not far removed from an instructional manual on NLP. The sprawling NLP sub-articles should be pruned back. Despite marketing propaganda that suggests otherwise, NLP is simple and it can be covered in one article. NLP isn't an academic subject, it's a commercial product and it has been discredited by scientific experimentation and review. Hence there should be no NLP project. flavius 09:44, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]