Talk:Schizoid personality disorder

Redirect

For some reason, someone made this page redirect to Archive 1 of this talk page. I'm going to assume good faith in that whoever did it was just trying to archive the page and not be disruptive, but next time please look over WP:ARCHIVE before attempting to archive a talk page again. Thank you. -- Rue Ryuzaki  jam  18:58, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Etiology

The real causes of SPD are largely unkown and speculative. It is realy necessary to have an empty section named "Etiology (causes)"?--194.65.151.101 (talk) 13:23, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

It most certainly is. If you have a citation covering your statement "The real causes of SPD are largely unkown and speculative" then put that in. I may be able to dig up some material myself. Even speculative reasons may be worth mentioning as long as that is made clear--Penbat (talk) 13:29, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

kindliness, honesty--a bit unclear

From the present version of the article" "3.pliability, kindliness, honesty, indifference, silence, and cold emotional attitudes" I think it is wonderful if people who have this disorder are notably kind and honest. But the way it is written and lack of followup in article makes it unlikely or at best unclear that this is what is meant. Probably the passage was to say that kindness and honesty, or lack thereof, are among the traits psychiatrists try to measure in schizoid patients.-Richard L. Peterson69.181.160.248 (talk) 14:11, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

No, it is exactly like it is in the text, at least acording to "Disorders of the self..." (pg. 5)--194.65.151.101 (talk) 16:41, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

The original: Physique and Character, pg 151--95.93.120.216 (talk) 18:23, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

---

THE 'SLAVE/ MASTER DYNAMIC'

' ' What isnt mentioned on the wiki page is the type of schizoid that is drawn to exploitative relationships, that is, into the 'slave-master relationship' as described by Klein in 'Disorders of the self..'. This is a largely unrecognised side to this disorder, and includes some who are sociable and kindly, but who have been affected, probably in their formative years by exploitative, and/ or dishonest relationships in their family, or abandonment, (and this includes many who have had a narcissistic parent). A key issue to be made clear is the intrapsychic structure of the split between self in exile and slave/ master relationship, that is to say, there is a dynamic polarisation. The intrusiveness and appropriation in the relationship experiences, and the other half of the polarity, being the self in exile. I'd like to try to edit the wiki page, but feel unsure about the best way to go about this. If anyone can help I'd be grateful. I believe these aspects are very important, I have experience of lives lost due to ingnorance of this disorder, failure to diagnose and treat. From River, my email: rivr.x@tiscali.co.uk 7 Feb. .2010 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.41.96.47 (talk) 22:08, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Outdated concept

I don't think schizoid personality disorder exists. People with this diagnosis actually have Asperger's syndrome but their symptoms have been misunderstood. At least Asperger's syndrome consists a better description of their condition. Examples:

Claimed symptom	Better explanation
Unwillingness towards close relationships.	Deficiency in theory of mind.
Preoccupation with his or her own thoughts.	Difficulty to communicate.
Lack of expressed emotions.	Difficulty to express emotions in ways understandable to others.
Hidden sexuality.	Difficulty to express sexuality in the same way as the majority of the population.
Playing social.	Trying to behave socially in order to be accepted by others.
Chooses to do things on his or her own.	Awareness of difficulty to co-operate.
Enjoys few if any activities.	Limited interests, possibly combined with difficulty to communicate joy.
Does not care about social norms.	Unaware of social norms or unable to follow them.

Please note that I don't deny the existence of schizophrenia nor the existence of paranoid schizophrenia or paranoia. It is just this particular diagnosis I consider outdated.

2010-06-11 Lena Synnerholm, Märsta, Sweden. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.247.167.71 (talk) 18:34, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

I don't think Asperger's syndrome exists. People with this diagnosis actually have schizoid personality disorder but their symptoms have been misunderstood. At least schizoid personality disorder consists a better description of their condition. Examples:

Claimed symptom	Better explanation
Deficiency in theory of mind	Unwillingness towards close relationships.
Difficulty to communicate.	Preoccupation with his or her own thoughts.
Difficulty to express emotions in ways understandable to others.	Lack of expressed emotions.
Difficulty to express sexuality in the same way as the majority of the population.	Hidden sexuality.
Trying to behave socially in order to be accepted by others.	Playing social.
Awareness of difficulty to co-operate.	Chooses to do things on his or her own.
Limited interests, possibly combined with difficulty to communicate joy.	Enjoys few if any activities.
Unaware of social norms or unable to follow them.	Does not care about social norms.

--81.84.182.58 (talk) 03:32, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

Note also that many people with AS are diagnosed as small children, at an age where is almost impossible to know the reason why they behave like that--81.84.182.58 (talk) 03:37, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

You hurt me! Did you really have to inverse my arguments? I am an Aspie myself and I got this diagnosis at about the age of twelve! Unfortunately, I was one of the first in Sweden to get this diagnosis. Until the age of 16 I did not get the kind of help I needed. Either people assumed me to be normal resulting in too high expectations. Or they assumed me to be a moron resulting in far to low demands. Or they assumed that I was psychologically traumatised resulting in useless amateur therapy. Not until the people paid for helping me where persons which knew what Asperger's syndrome meant did I get the kind of help I needed. By then I had virtually lost three and a half years of schooling because my teachers did not give me a chance to learn. The diagnosis Asperger's syndrome describes very well how I perceive myself. Among Aspies I am far from alone about this. Many of them got their diagnosis of Asperger's syndrome as adults. They may previously have had other diagnoses such as schizoid personality disorder or mental diseases related to schizophrenia. In these cases they perceived that psychiatrists and psychologists attributed thoughts and emotions to them which they did not have. When they eventually got their diagnoses as Aspies many of them felt that everything aberrant about then was explained. There are in fact professional working with personality disorders which think that schizoid personality disorder does not exist. It was from an article in a newspaper about personality disorders that I got the idea that people said to have schizoid personality disorder actually have Asperger's syndrome. I also refuse to believe that anyone can choose to never use an ability common to all mankind. If someone seems to never use such an ability this actually means that the person does not posses this particular ability. Such things are simply beyond the power of free will.

2010-06-13 Lena Synnerholm, Märsta, Sweden —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.247.167.71 (talk) 18:22, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

First, my excuses. I was not really saying that AS does not exist; my intention was only to demonstrate that the argument "SPD is really AS" has the same logical that the argument "AS is really SPD"; I, personally, think that SPD describes me more than AS (however, I don't have any diagnosis - the only thing that my psych said, some years ago, was "You intellectualize to much and don't show your emotions"); and there is people diagnosed with SPD that think that SPD is an exactly description of themselves.

"I also refuse to believe that anyone can choose to never use an ability common to all mankind." And "almost never" (after all, most people with SPD socialize sometimes)? And it is perfectly possible to imagine a scenario where someone decides to almost never communicate with other - for some reason (perhaps a long period of involuntary solitude), you begin to develop some very interesting thoughts, and you become more interested in your thoughts than in reality; then, a vicious cycle begins - because you are already thinking, your internal life becomes more and more rich and addictive; in contrast, because spend almost no time with other people, you will feel that social contacts are less and less interesting (what is the pleasure of talking with people about issues that you barely know?).

Another point, when you said "I got this diagnosis at about the age of twelve!", "this diagnosis" is SPD or AS?

Of course, all of that is "original research", but perhaps we can find some sources about the AS/SPD relation to put in the article (some suggestions: this, this, this, this or this). --95.93.14.161 (talk) 23:50, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

Despite me having learned that these discussion pages are not intended for topical debates, but for discussions concerning the acutal article's content and layout, and despite the fact that we are certainly not in the position, nor is Wikipedia a legitimate place for the denial of illnesses or disorders (that have been academically studied and continue to be studied, even though there still is a lot to do) -- or just attempts of venting original research -- this is a complete non-subject. There simply is no such question; though there definitely is a question pertaining to the possibilities and means as to clinically differentiate between SPD and Asperger's Syndrome. Which, as I see it, is not an easy task. However, to downright equate or identify Asperger's with SPD is all but absurd and without any substance. To begin with, there are symptoms of Asperger's that simply (and normally..) cannot be observed in individuals with SPD. Also this is the most common approach when it comes to the differentiation between these two disorders. And it works.. mostly. It is exactly the reason why, for example I, have been diagnosed with SPD, not Asperger's -- which wouldn't describe me well anyway. In spite of the many parallels, as well as the fact that schizoids display the trait of what is called autistic thinking, both disorders belong to perfectly different continuums respectively. SPD, as the name has it, is a personality disorder and as such belongs to the continuum of personality disorders (ALL of these have much in common, are interconnected, and often occur together in one and the same individual). Asperger's on the other hand clearly is an autism spectrum disorder and as such tends much more in the general direction of developmental disorders. Means broadly that it is normally discernable as early as in childhood. It's congenital; other than SPD, which generally evolves over a period of, not seldom, many years. Me for instance, I've certainly been a very quiet and withdrawn kid -- yet there was no indication of an actual disorder, for a pretty long time. The (full-blown) SPD, in my case, really became noticeable not before I was around 16 or 17 years old. Well, that's not exactly how it goes with Aspie's! Also, SPD is (at least) characteristically much nearer to, for example, schizophrenia, there are not so few similarities and assumed connections. (Such as that persons out of families with a history of schizophrenia have a higher risk of developing, not only schizophrenia themselves, but alternatively also.. SPD!) Plus, and different from Aspie's, people with SPD are much more prone of experiencing quasi- or actual psychotic episodes or bouts, at worst, they'll need medication. Unfortunately, I know this by myself, even if so far there's been no need (or sufficient will) for drugs (I don't like drugs), but, especially in times of distress, I may experience states I've never heard being reported by Aspie's. Depression, of course, is a more persistend nuisance, yet that seems to hold for (many) Aspie's too. Either way, there's absolutely no point in denying SPD (or, really any other disorder while there are people actually suffering due to them), much less without professional qualification. Look, I have it. SPD. Not Asperger's. And if there's nothing like SPD, then there's also nothing like me. Because it's a burden, and it defines ALL my life, every single day. Still I take it. Try to make the best out of it. When then someone comes along and declares, so nonchalant, that he/she knows oh' a better NAME for this burden --well, it's a bit frustrating. If something describes me perfectly well, and all the doctors also find I have this, then it exists, and you, dear Lena, will need some stronger arguments, than a silly transposition of symptom descriptions, belonging to two starkly different diagnoses. Many thanks to the user who provided these links, concerning the SPD/ASP 'relationship'. Interesting. Zero Thrust (talk) 04:29, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Just speculation?

How much of this is speculation and how much has been verified by scientific analysis? We all know the Freudians write/wrote volumes of speculation, is this just the same? I'd like to see a Criticism section. 92.28.252.46 (talk) 14:24, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

What do you say by "criticism"? I think that is a fact that are people with this symptoms (me, for example); by "criticism" you mean the opinion that this is simply a variant of personality and not a disease? But the whole concept of "personality disorder" is, basically, an extreme variant of a personality type.

Or you are talking, not about the concept of SPD itself, but about the psycho-dynamic theories about the causes of SPD?--95.93.14.161 (talk) 17:13, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

I mean that there may be no such thing as a "schizoid personality disorder", and that the reasoning given may not be true either. Where are the empirical scientific studies to prove it? 92.15.10.239 (talk) 18:58, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

This is like saying "may be no such thing as a «color cyan»" - it is a fact that there are some color combinations that match what is called "cyan", and it is also a fact that some people have personality traits that match the definition of "schizoid personality disorder"; there is the question if we should have a particular label ("schizoid personality disorder") for these people or a particular label ("cyan") for this color combination (instead of considering it as, for example, simply a variant of "blue"), but this is more a question of convention than of "true/false".--95.93.126.227 (talk) 00:28, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Not quite. A disorder is not a collection of personality traits. Furthermore, it could be that the difficulties of those diagnosed that get a certain diagnosis can be described in different and more accurate ways. Maybe the diagnosis groups together people that only on the surface seem more or less similar, but who differ vastly in their own experiences. Lova Falk talk 16:50, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

.....Hi. I have Schizoid Personality Disorder. I've been taking ant-psychotics for the past 2 and 1/2 years due to a speculative family history of schizophrenics (we are of a third-world orient), a father with NPD and the latter, and found out about it all after the drug use. I am almost in my mid-twenties, and my 3rd doctor since this has all began has stated that after being diagnosed with schizophrenia that I really have an "undiagnosed psychosis w/ schizophrenic symptoms due to drug use." I've worked with children w/ autism, PDNOS, Aspergers, majoring in a Neurological field so that if i do have kids with said afflictions, I can be prepared to respond properly. Now I know the difference between schizophrenia and a schizoid personality disorder and can unfortunately say that, yes, it sucks. I feel and go through every single thing that this article describes and since childhood. I know some of it is bit provocative, given the extreme sexual (or lack thereof) interests and mindsets that people like me go through. It's sad because I think that most of the relationships that I have had recently have been those with similar symptoms and experiences. So yes, it exists, and I say this as a living testament, a friend of those similar and contrasted, and as one who his making his livelihood based on preparing for the worst since Ive been given my worst. I guess that's the ridiculous amount of kindness and humility that the article was referring to. Trust me, I've been going through this for so long, that I hate that this isn't out in the open more, but then again, i believe that society has made the Schizoid-types the social outcasts they are today...it's the apathy that makes it look so selfish. We feel like we have no choice, because the external/internal (which is another hard to tell thing) won't let us be satisfied or comfortable. So with the constant tug of war and the multitudes of today's society of polite fictions, the apathetic, social outcast becomes the only saving grace, and the fantasy/womb-like mind becomes something of a nuisance at times, as well as a fortress of solitude. Then, with age, which is what I'm facing, given the powers of what discernment I have left, the solitude of mind will manifest itself in reality, given the extreme realness within the duality of brain and mind. In fact, one can speculate that the external/internal tug-of-war is just a fight between the reality of concept od Duality (Brain/Mind). Ah well...this is just a means for me to express a lot since I've read this, and thankfully, without much emotional attachment. Anywho, it's real, because I and others I know live it. Every. Day. It's funny how it's found to be only 1% of the population.

-LB 76.102.46.29 (talk) 09:40, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

Proposed Changes to the DSM V

It is my understanding that Schizoid personality disorder may be removed or reformulated in the DSM V but I see no mention of it. Having been diagnosed, I wonder why and where things may be going and what has changed. Thestranger.djp (talk) 20:01, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

You know - after changing health care system in USA, goverment want to find savings in budget. There are more safe place on the world now for "unprofitable patients", than Soviet union of America:) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.5.175.254 (talk) 12:12, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

Treatment

I propose the removal of this section:

- Many parts seems medical advice - Many parts are very complex and difficult to understand by laymen (who are the "natural public" of wikipedia)

--194.65.151.101 (talk) 15:35, 30 December 2010 (UTC)