Talk:Rorschach test

Naive skeptics

You know, little annoys me more than the obstinantly uninformed derisiveness of so-called "skeptics" on wikipedia for any controversial topic they can find to dump on. So far I've found wikipedia articles on philosophy, psychoanalysis, the Rorschach test, and many other subjects infested with this pseudo-"skeptical" garbage, always with the obligatory link to that esteemed and,I am sure, rigorously peer-reviewed source of knowledge, the "Skeptic's Dictionary." Hey skeptics, why don't you turn your skepticism back toward yourselves and ask yourselves why you continually trash ideas about which you have no expertise or detailed knowledge?

More on methods of interpretation

For an informed discussion about the inkblot test, it would be useful to add more about the logic behind evaluating the answears. For example, the article states that those who see an animal in the example picture are more social. The idea here is that seeing a fox or two birds are common interpretations. If you see what others see, you'll probably get along better with others, or so the theory goes. It's easier to discuss this statement than "seeing animals = social". Another thing that's examined is whether the images you see refer to the whole image or portions of it. If you see something in the image as a whole, you'r able to "take in the whole picture" in life in general.

If this logic strikes one as flawed, one must in the end ask if any method of interpretation would work. In any case, the inkblot test is not based simply on statistical results among patient groups, as the article may seem to indicate. If so, new inkblot sets could be produced on demand from inexpensive trials and the secrecy of the old tests would not be an issue.

"Psychologists prefer that the general public not see them so that it will not skew results when the test is performed and copyrights on the images are vigorously enforced to try to prevent this." Is the above statement possible in the age of internet? What happen when the copyright expire? (Though not likely while Disney is around)

OK, the claims of copyright seem rather spurious to me. Hermann Rorschach died in 1922. Any ones he was using when he developed the test are well within the public domain. I don't recall how many, if any, in the set were developed after that, but the original ones are completely free and clear. All in all it appears to me to be yet another company trying to distort copyright laws to protect things that can't be protected. And, hell, even the ones under copyright can be used via Fair Use rules for comment and criticism. DreamGuy 18:10, Mar 5, 2005 (UTC)

I agree that the copyright claim is spurious, is there a source for the claim? As you say, if the author was Hermann Rorschach and he died in 1922 April 2, then they are in the public domain, both United States and EU. See an attempt at copyright analysis here commons:User:Wikibob.

Meanwhile I added a GFDL simulated ink blot (green on black) from http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Rorschachtest - click on the image for full details.

Returning to the copyright, these guys display the outlines of the official ink blots and full 'cheat' details with no worries at all about copyright. They say:

After repeated letters from dozens of outraged psychologists and psychiatrists
claiming that this page "violates the copyright on the Rorschach Test", we feel
compelled to post this notice:

The information presented here, including the outlines of the Rorschach
inkblots, is not in violation of copyright law. Please don't waste your time
writing us to complain or threatening to "turn us into the publisher".

-Wikibob | Talk 01:05, 2005 Mar 16 (UTC)

Extensive references for future expansion of the Hermann Rorschach stub:

-Wikibob | Talk 01:13, 2005 Mar 16 (UTC)

Conflicting sentences

The following sentences from the article seem to be in conflict:

Most, if not all, inkblots contain symbols and images that are supposed to be interpreted sexually.
Secondly, because the blots of ink are inherently meaningless and subjective, evaluating the results of a test requires the blots of ink to have meaning in the first place.

I realize that there isn't a factual conflict, since even a portrait of Jesus Christ has no meaning until viewed and interpreted by someone. However, the second sentence implies that the designers of the test didn't include any images they felt would be likely to be interpreted in any particular way, while the first implies that they did.

I don't know which implication is correct, so I won't make changes, but this is problematic as currently written. --Yath 22:30, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, I think the first sentence is questionable... I think the idea is that they are all supposed to start out ambiguous but then they picked which blots to use in the test based upon the ones people picked sexual things on fairly often. Rorshach is definitely in one of the "Everything is sexual" camps. Of course then the question is if it really is still supposed to be meaningless if they expect certain answers. DreamGuy 02:24, Apr 14, 2005 (UTC)

I think that this little blurb is BS:

there is no reason to believe that images found in the ink blots represent some core
personality or self rather than feelings, past experience, creativity, or some other 
part of the mind that would not play a major part in the patient's actions.

Did you guys know that one of the cards is blank? Completely white. It actually gets some of the longest and most descriptive responses after being told that it isn't a joke and that it is a real card. They say it's a snow storm or a white dove over their vision or whatever. The point is, however, that this is direct evidence against the fellow saying that it doesn't reflect anything about the self. The only thing it could be is a reflection of the self. The card is flippin' BLANK for christ sakes; the only thing you can describe about it comes from within. Really I love that this card exisists -- it is a 100% flow directly from the unconscious. Very cool stuff. 128.114.172.101 17:04, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

and you know what? what is a person except for a sum of their past experiences and feelings? is that not what composes their self, their personality?

also if this guy is calling the rorschach bunk, then projection and transference would be too. there goes all of psychotherapy. i'm deleting it. JoeSmack (talk) 15:39, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)

Is there a black one? --Yath 18:13, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

None of the ten original Rorschach cards is blank. The Thematic Apperception Test has a blank card. --Georgius 14:22, 15 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

LOL, you're right. I'd make an arguement that they are similar projective tests, but I only have about half of one foot to stand on left...so I think I'll just shove it in my mouth and shut up. ;) JoeSmack (talk) 15:25, July 15, 2005 (UTC)

My $0.02

Sorry to return to the issue of having card one shown in this article. It seems unnecessarily provocative to post this, especially when there is a suitable non-Rorschach card to be in its place. And the issue is not copyright. I guess this doesn't matter in Wikipedia as long as someone wants to do this, no amount of appeal will prevail.

Also there are some problematic statements: the test is not "outdated" because the cards have been put on the Internet. It may spoil test results, however having seen the card does not in itself ruin the results.

Also, the statement about turing the card means the person is brain damaged is not the case. No psychologica testing is that simple. So, either someone with little or no knowledge must have stated this.

Also, using the word "believers" is also provocative.

And as I psychologist, I have problems with the Rorschach. However, I have more of a problem when articles in WP are contentious. The validity issue of the Rorschach test has not been decided for many of the claims against it (e.g., Woods) have been challenged. Again, I am not saying I think that the Rorschach is valid or not but just that the article should show an informed position. Of course this means having the criticisms stated boldly but also the replies to this criticism. To do this, I think, raises the level of scholarship of the article. (The level of scholarship complaint is not only with this article but with many WP articles.)

Maybe I will add to this article but not if it is going to stir up the passions of the anti-Rorschach people. It's not worth an "editing war". So let me know if I should bother. Rsugden 14:41, 31 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Is this a Freudian test ?

"Rorschach was a proponent of Freudian psychoanalysis, which emphasizes the role of the unconscious mind. More recently, the test has been used as a perceptual test"

In Rorschach's book, there are only few references to Freud, and his method makes me think to Exner rather than to psychoanalysis (he even writes that some clever persons guess thaht it is a perceptual test and not an imagination test). He looks at the number of answers, at the number of time patients look at small details, at the colours and so on, much like in Exner's CS, without anything which would remind me of Freudian theories. Apokrif 22:54, 13 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Rohrschach, not Rorschach!

Re CORRECT SPELLING. Professor Rohrschach's name is taken from the idyllic little Swiss town of Rohrschach on the Bodensee (a.k.a. Lake Constance). Although the town's name and by implication the name of the famous psychiatrist have been misspelled so often by now as to have become so to say "official" language, I can see no reason why Wikipedia should perpetuate this glaring mistake.
Even the most cursory glance at the map of Switzerland will confirm that Rohr... is the correct spelling. Dozens of villages and towns can be found having a "Rohr" in their name, e.g. Rohrbach, Rohrbachgraben, Rohrdorf, Rohrmatt, Rohrmoos, and of course any number of plain Rohr in the Cantons of Aargau, Solothurn, Freiburg etc to mention just the best known. And this is of course no coincidence. The German word Rohr has many meanings: reed, rush, cane, tube, pipe etc etc, while "Ror" would not point to anything in the world but the spelling of an illiterate person.
Rohrschach is a very fittingly named place indeed. The name is composed from Schachen, which in Switzerland mainly denotes low ground or lake shore, and Rohr, which in this case stands for Binsen (E. rush, L. juncus).
We all know that sloppy spelling is not frowned upon anymore in today's media. Nevertheless, in judging the question at hand we should ask ourselves how we would feel if it were our own names that were being mangled. Speaking for myself, I frankly admit that whenever I am addressed in a letter as Mr Zolinger, Mr Bollingen or Mr Holliger the thought that I might one day be listed in an encyclopedia under one of these misspellings causes me distress. I therefore urge every Wikipedian to give Professor Rohrschach his due and repair the injustice done to him. --BZ(Bruno Zollinger) 14:37, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hi... No... his real name was Rorschach. Period. Full stop. End of discussion. I don't care what the Swiss town is named, or where that name came from, as that's not his name. All of your ranting about misspelling of your name and so forth is completely irrelevant. DreamGuy 22:56, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Amen. By the same logic we could declare that the "proper" spelling of Zollinger is Zelënyye Gory, Dzhyuylyanger, Çilingir, or Jelina Gora. - Nunh-huh 23:11, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Re REAL NAME (DreamGuy). First let me say that I am extremely sorry to learn that my explanations have come across as a "rant". I can assure you that this was never my intention. Please put it down to my relative unfamiliarity with the American idiom. This might also be the reason why I have apparently not managed to make myself clear about Professor Rohrschach's "real name". Not only the town's name is Rohrschach, but also Professor Rohrschach's original family name. My grandfather, Alois Zollinger, who had the honor of being personally acquainted with the revered Professor, told us more than once how unhappy Professor Rohrschach, a learned and very tradition-conscious man if there ever was one, felt about the mangling of the name Rohrschach. So while I fully understand the difficulties that would present themselves if you were to attempt at this late date to correct the error in Wikipedia, I nevertheless would be happy if you would reconsider your position in this matter.
Re LOGIC (Nunh-huh). By stating that by "the same logic we could declare that the proper spelling of Zollinger is (...) Jelina Gora", you are, of course, 100% right. The logic of the process that you have in mind for arriving at one of these names cannot be faulted. However, the correct logic of a process by itself does not guarantee a correct result. And in this case your result would certainly be wrong: My family name is not, has never been, and cannot be read as a translation or rendering of Jelina Gora, whereas Professor Rohrschach's name was Rohrschach, is Rohrschach, and shall remain Rohrschach even if there were not one person left on earth to remember this. --BZ(Bruno Zollinger) 19:36, 2 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

If evidence to support this claim was made available to our readers, then it would be included in the article. However, it is not Wikipedia's job to rewrite history, only to record it, so the name of this article would retain the "Rorschach" spelling because that is what the test is called throughout the English-speaking world. Details on article-naming policy are available at Wikipedia:Naming conventions; the policy at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names) is particularly relevant. — Saxifrage | ☎ 04:44, 3 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

His name was Rorschach, as agreed upon by his own followers and how he himself spelled his name. See http://www.rorschach.com/ for a sample of his signature and other reference. Discussing some Swiss town or whatever is pointless. Claiming that he didn't like how his name was spelled based upon what you say someone else told you is nothing more than [[unverifiable original research, which is against policy and against common sense as well. DreamGuy 05:20, 3 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Re NAMING CONVENTIONS (Saxifrage). Thank you very much for drawing my attention to this interesting information. I agree, of course, that the faulty spelling of Professor Rohrschach's name is at the moment dominant in parts of the English-speaking world and that his world-famous test is therefore in all too many places misnamed. Please bear in mind, however, that the way names are spelled has a tendency to change through the years even in America. If examples are needed you might want to have a look at the spelling of Chinese names now and a century ago. Apart from practical problems that might arise, there is therefore no reason why errors should not be corrected at any given moment.
Re FOLLOWERS (Dreamguy). You no doubt have a point there. But it does not seem to me to be a very relevant one. If you consider that disciples tend to change their master's name practically as a rule (our own Jesus Christ whose "real name" certainly was neither Jesus nor Christ is just one example), your point would on the contrary be one more reason for a correction.
May I also point out once more that the information about Professor Rohrschach's dismay on seeing the family name mangled was not given to me by "someone else" but by my grandfather Alois Zollinger. Also, the fact that Professor Rohrschach himself finally succumbed to the concerted attacks of the illiterates is no reason at all why Wikipedia should not put the record straight.
One more fact that you might want to look into: Professor Rohrschach was not only an eminent scientist but also a great lover of music and an expert also in this field. Of all the innumerable musical societies that have sprung up in his honor, e.g. Stadtmusik Rohrschach, Maennerverein Frohsinn Rohrschach, Orchesterverein Rohrschach (run by the famous Nelly Bischof), to mention only the best known on an international scale, I do not know a single one that did not get Professor Rohrschach's name right. A glance at the excellent Swiss music site www.music.ch will yield all the confirmation that you might need. --BZ(Bruno Zollinger) 20:07, 3 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Again, Wikipedia is not about correcting errors that the rest of the world believes are not errors. Yes, Chinese spellings have changed, and Wikipedia's article names regarding Chinese subjects reflect this in many cases (and in many cases have not changed, depending on common usage). These changes in Chinese spelling are recognised by reputable sources outside of Wikipedia. However, the spelling of Rorschach in the context of the test has not changed in the English-speaking world, and so Wikipedia must adhere to that spelling.

Furthermore, your comment to Dreamguy is missing an important point: your information on the spelling of the Professor's name is a personal source unavailable to this project and its readers. Therefore, we cannot incorporate it into the article. See Wikipedia:Verifiability and Wikipedia:Cite sources for policy regulating information sources. — Saxifrage | ☎ 00:47, 4 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Re AVAILABILITY (Saxifrage). Puzzled by your remark about the supposed unavailability of the sources given by me, I have gone over my data once again and have found to my great dismay that an error has occurred indeed. I deeply apologize. Frohsinn Rohrschach is of course not a "Maennerverein" as erroneously stated in my last post but a Maennerchor (or Männerchor as it should correctly be spelled. I shall however also in future spell out the German Umlaute in order to avoid confusing readers whose systems are not equipped to handle such letters). A Maennerverein could of course be any kind of congregation, whereas in a Maennerchor people get together to sing.
This said, I do not think that you will encounter any more difficulties in checking my sources. Full data with addresses and phone numbers are freely available on the internet for the 3 societies mentioned (Stadtmusik Rohrschach, Maennerchor Frohsinn Rohrschach, Orchesterverein Rohrschach) and the www.music.ch will not let any person down who is seriously intent on research and not on defending preconceived notions about a subject he knows very little about.
Finally I would like to point out a glaring omission in the article. Professor Rohrschach was of course a deeply religious man with a profound interest in religious poetry. All serious witnesses agree that his Psychodiagnostik cannot be understood at all without this background. Absolutely none of this comes across in the article. Not even his favorite poem is quoted or even mentionned. Now, before anyone would want to complain about sources being "unavailable" he would do well to go to some reputable library, which I am sure can be found also in America, and read at least some of Professor Rohrschach's essays (beside the Psychodiagnostik of course) and look at least at a few pages of the excellent memoirs of the great man by his sister A. Berchtold-Rohrschach. Yes, I know, the situation being what it is, the books will probably be still listed under the faulty spelling. All the more reason to do something about it here. --BZ(Bruno Zollinger) 13:41, 4 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Those don't qualify as sources for Wikipedia, because Wikipedia does not accept original research. (See Wikipedia:No original research.) Consequently, there must be some third-party source that says, in effect, "The name of the test is wrong because it is based on the name of the Professor, and obviously his name is Rohrschach because all the institutions named after him spell it that way." Lacking such a document that Wikipedia can cite means not including the information in the article. Wikipedia only documents established knowledge and is not in the business of correcting it or synthesising new knowledge. — Saxifrage | ☎ 21:40, 4 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Re QUALIFICATION (Saxifrage). Well, at least now I know that Professor Rohrschach's own words as documented in his essays, his handwritten letters, his poems, his songs, and the testimonies of his family members and colleagues (all collected in Gesammelte Aufsaetze, Verlag Hans Huber, Bern und Stuttgart, 1965) do not qualify as sources for Wikipedia. And I also understand the reasons behind it.
I do not want to sound ungrateful. I truly appreciate your comments (no irony intended). On other pages I have encountered the same stubborn unwillingness to correct undeniable errors and inexcusable omissions. But there there was not even an attempt at explanation. On the page of a famous writer for example I have pointed out in vain that it could not possibly be true that he was born in 1880 and died in 1946 at the age of 62. Now I realize that, just as Professor Rohrschach, also this American writer will have to wait until someone presents a paper at some congress stating that in his opinion the data on which the leading theory is based, while not being exactly wrong, could also be interpreted to support an alternative theory according to which the writer died at the age of 49. This "third-party" paper would then, in your words, constitute knowledge established enough to be documented in Wikipedia. --BZ(Bruno Zollinger) 09:42, 5 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

SPOV (the Swiss point of view)

Re SOURCES. Users DreamGuy and Saxifrage have been so kind as to instruct me on what at the moment is taken to qualify as a source for Wikipedia and what is considered information worthy of incorporation in an article. It is certainly not, nor has it ever been, my intention to break any rules here or suggest any changes of policy. Allow me, however, to explain how these matters are regarded elsewhere.
Beside the Professor's own works cited above, the following are considered in Switzerland to be not only sources but indispensable sources:
- Kerner, Justinus: Klecksographie, 1857
- Hens, Szymon: Phantasiepruefungen mit formalen Klecksen bei Schulkindern, 1917
- Behn-Eschenburg, Hans: Psychische Schueleruntersuchungen mit dem Formdeutversuch, 1921
Without these writings, how could anybody know what the Professor's Tolggengeschichte (sic) was all about? How could anybody guess that the tool (ink blots) that the Professor employed was in common use in his time and that he would never have dreamt of claiming exclusive rights on it? How could anybody understand that his "followers" have taken the work of a decent and honest man and turned it into a travesty and a scam? How could anyone ever find out that these "followers" have to be classed in the same category as clairvoyants, fortune-tellers and all the other practitioners of voodoo science and medicine?
Now, if users Saxifrage and Dreamguy feel that the SPOV on sources and their content should not be heard even on this Discussion Page, I shall be glad to examine their evidence for that too. If I should find it as convincing as the one presented by them so far regarding the article proper, I would in future refrain from bringing this SPOV up on this page, of course. --BZ(Bruno Zollinger) 11:46, 12 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]