File talk:Qing Dynasty 1820.png

I would like to propose a new version of this map, which would include areas directly ruled by the Qing in Yellow, and tributaries in Orange, to compare the sphere of influence and the actual regions controlled. Regards, -- 李博杰 | —Talk contribs 11:46, 20 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Korea

It would be better if Choson is added as a protectorate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.134.154.25 (talk) 20:54, 9 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Chosŏn

Wasn't there a Chosŏn Province --82.134.154.25 (talk) 20:58, 11 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No. See tributary state. -- 李博杰 | —Talk contribs email 07:25, 12 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Issues with map

The map is a modern fantasy, and have no historical basis. --Tbma (talk) 16:03, 13 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Got a reason and source to back that talk up? You should give a detailed argument explaining why you think that is so, rather than just making such a statement without backing it up. -- 李博杰 | —Talk contribs email 13:02, 14 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the welcome, and of course I have reason and sources. Actually there are multiple reasons. Even outside of the borders of 1860s there was only 64 Chinese villages totaling 2800 people, and that was specifically noted. Otherwise than that there was no Chinese population included into Russian empire borders. That region was never solely owned by Qing Empire. a) Territories to the east of Khabarovsk were not populated not by russians not by Chineese and should be shown as neutral. In fact Chinese borders never not then not later crossed Amur river. b) Daur rulers decided to pay the tribute to the Qing, but that was never accepted by the Russian empire. c) Sakhalin was not known to the both empires, and both thought that it's a peninsula. Should be shown as unexplored. d) Protectorate status of Khalka should be shown because bogdo-genens has been accepted as vassals by the Emperor in 1691 and had the right to rule there. Tuva should be shown as a part of that protectorate. e) Lands between Amur in the north, Khabarovsk, Ussuri river, Bolshaya Ussurka river until the bottoms of Sikhote-Alin and there on the modern border - should be shown as contested by both empires and not owned by both (and largely unexplored). f) borders along Irtysh river should be shown as undelimited as it was since Treaty of Kyakhta in 1727. --Tbma (talk) 19:00, 14 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Same thing with Kokand Khanate borders. They should be shown as undelimited, and should be shown as protectorate only. --Tbma (talk) 19:18, 14 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

User:Tbma is right on this one. Heilongjiang, Jilin, "Uliassutai", Inner Mongolia, Xinjiang, Qinghai, and Tibet are all shown as provinces on this map even though, in 1820, all of these areas were outside of the China proper (内地十八省) and were not administered as provinces and in many cases had only a weak tributary relationship with the Qing. In the case of some Turkic areas (as noted by User:Tbma) and most Tibetan areas (current Tibet, Qinghai, and western Sichuan), there was not even effective Qing control. Information supporting this can be found right here at Wikipedia (e.g., "In 1884, Qing China established Xinjiang as a province") with citations. I invite the author of the map or other users to address these issues so that the map or something similar can continue to be used in articles. — AjaxSmack 09:33, 10 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you AjaxSmack for turning my attention here. I have cited my sources in the image description and is thus not "original research." If you can provide a reference map for the borders as stated by Tbma I will look at it. The Treaty of Nerchinsk of 1689 delineates the borders between the Russians and Chinese as being the Stanovoy Mountains north of the Amur River, and would remain so until the Treaty of Aigun in 1858, with the Russians taking the land east of the Ussuri River in the Treaty of Peking in 1860. If your argument on the northeastern boundary is based on how many Chinese lived in these areas and not by international recognition, then by corollary, European colonial claims on Africa are fantasy maps as well and have no place in an encyclopedia.

I will concede ambiguity in how much control the Qing had over Mongolia, Xinjiang, Tibet, and the South China Sea islands, particularly considering there was no international body at the time to establish what sovereignty is. Thus, I am looking to portray a map of the empire as it would have been portrayed internationally. To use an example, Tibet proclaimed independence in 1911, but the European and American governments denied Tibet recognition in favor of the ROC. Such a map would then show Tibet to be a part of the ROC. The Qing sphere of influence is much larger than the map shown here, so if someone can provide how these territories were recognized internationally (and whether they were different from how Korea and Vietnam were viewed), then I will look at it and adapt accordingly. Pryaltonian (talk) 11:14, 20 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

New version of the map is uploaded with colors differentiating between provinces, military governorates, and protectorates. Tributaries have been added in orange, as previously requested by Belinsquare. Qinghai is colored in as a province, as the Qing started governing Kham and Amdo as provinces within Sichuan and Qinghai, making it different from the governance of Bod (Tibet). I stand by the northeastern border drawn along the Stanovoys as accorded by the Treaty of Nerchinsk. Regarding Sakhalin, if both parties thought Sakhalin was a peninsula, then by that logic it is definitely part and parcel of the land south of the Stanovoys recognized to be under the Qing banner. Please refer to these contemporary, non-Chinese maps that recognize China's claim over Outer Manchuria and Sakhalin: http://web.archive.org/web/20070208043057/http://map.huhai.net/58-59.jpg and http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:John-Tallis-1851-Tibet-Mongolia-and-Manchuria-33621.jpg — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pryaltonian (talk • contribs) 15:32, 21 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting logic regarding Sakhalin. How someone can own something, if they don't even know how it looks like? Tbma (talk) 16:12, 22 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Considering the source maps provided, is the issue that Sakhalin is being claimed as early as 1820 (but would be acceptable to be in a map from 1850), or that is it being claimed at all? Pryaltonian (talk) 16:30, 22 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I have stated my view above. I think it should be shown as unexplored and not claimed by anybody, i.e. gray. Tbma (talk) 02:45, 23 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Would you be able to create an SVG vector image version as well, by any chance? -- 李博杰 | —Talk contribs email 22:50, 21 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately, I haven't learned how to make SVGs. I suppose I should get with the times eventually. Pryaltonian (talk) 15:39, 22 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]