Talk:Evolution as fact and theory

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Proof in "Related concepts and terminology"

The current version states that there is no proof in natural sciences. This contradicts several publications that claim otherwise, including Gould's "Structure of Evolutionary Theory"[1], Wilson's "Consilience"[2], and examples can be found in the primary literature (e.g., [3]). The definitions given for theory and hypothesis are also misleading. Compare the definition given in the text: "Speculative or conjectural explanations are called hypotheses" to the one given by the NAS stating that a scientific hypothesis is “a tentative statement about the natural world leading to deductions that can be tested”. The definition on theory is just as disappointing. Taking this into account and reading through some of the evolutionary literature on this topc I hashed out some concepts that might add to the content of this article. I can provide citations - here are links to articles (in addition to those linked above) that were used to put this together: [4], [5], [6], [7], and [8]. I'm just putting this out here for discussion for possible inclusion of concepts and terms as they apply in the scientific philosophy of evolution:

• (Prelude): Science cannot achieve absolute "certainty" nor is it a continuous march toward an objective truth as the vernacular meaning of the terms "proof" or "fact" might imply. A proof, fact, theory, hypothesis, and other words of science are hobbled by multiple meanings but are used nonetheless in the methods of scientific researchers trying to solve problems. Science has no foresight on the correct solution as it pushes the boundaries of discovery. It is at first a speculation about the natural world where methods are further developed to further our knowledge. Science is a collective enterprise of knowledge and discovery that evolves through experimentation.

The tempo and direction of this evolution is guided largely by the present-day state of scientific understanding, public and private funding agendas, educational practices and objectives, and societal interest, all within the context of the contemporary culture. In practice, researchers also rely on the successes and failures of prior studies to provide clues to identify promising future research directions...Kuhn believed that the way in which humans acquire knowledge inevitably leads to a suite of methodological, philosophical, and even social constructs that guide scientists and their investigations, and he adopted the term "paradigm" to depict these constructs.

• "Fact" does not mean "absolute certainty". In the words of Stephen J. Gould: In science, "fact" can only mean "confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional assent." Facts exist both within and outside of science. Facts are "events that occur" or "the state of being of things" that can be publicly verified, proven through experiment, or witnessed by direct observation.
• A "hypothesis" is a tentative statement about nature that can be tested. Hypotheses are specific claims drawn out of theory (see below) that entails natural consequences or deductions should they be true.
• A "scientific test" involves an experiment or a prediction about unobserved facts that can be evaluated by methods of observation. Critical tests are those that locate the evidence, as effects, that has the lowest probability of being observed if the events did not occur. An experiment involves the manipulation of conditions setting the controls, which can be accomplished naturally or contrived in a laboratory.
• "Observations" may seem factual, but some consider them to be "low-level" hypotheses that are interpretations of the "natural truth" in light of present theories.
• "Theories" are universal statements that generate hypotheses, meaning that they necessarily refer to all individuals of consequence across space and time. The common ancestry of life and natural selection are examples that apply universally to all known forms of life. Since it is only possible to refer to a finite number of individuals, it is not possible to absolutely verify their infinite status and so theories must necessarily falsify finite claims. Theories are necessarily speculative at first, "funeral by funeral theory advances", but they are constructed with the specific purpose of being readily falsified if proven wrong. Theories are more general than hypotheses as they refer to multiple experiments and many facts. They are crafted carefully out of the imagination of informed scientists that draw upon their knowledge of the facts during the earlier stages of formulation. Evolution by natural selection and quantum electrodynamics are examples of big theories that have survived the mettle of countless attempts to falsify their claims; their hypotheses have been empirically corroborated since they were first proposed.
• "Proof" of a theory has different meanings in science. Proof exists in formal sciences, such as a mathematical proof where symbolic expressions can represent an infinite sets with precise definitions and outcomes of the terms. Proof has other meanings stemming from its Latin roots meaning to test. In this sense a proof is a convincing explanation or a verifiable demonstration of the facts usually involving evidence stemming from carefully controlled experiments. The consilience of inductions (see below) is an example of a proof that Charles Darwin used in his natural science experiments. Darwin's research pointed to the coordination of so many pieces of evidence that no other configuration other than his theory could offer a conceivable causal explanation of the facts. In this way natural selection and common ancestry has been proven. Natural selection and other evolutionary theories, such as the Hardy-Weinberg theorem, are also represented in various mathematical proofs.
• "Corroboration" is a measure of degrees of belief in a hypotheses. Hypotheses that have withstood testing and have yet to be falsified are not verified, proven, or truth but corroborated. Experimental observation of the predictions made by a hypothesis or theory is called validation. There is no firm or universal truth in science, but scientists believe that some theories are true because they have proven reliable. Axioms taken as firm truth (not testable) are avoided in science. The second form of an axiom is the hypotheses.
• "Inference" is a way of reaching a conclusion and can be achieved using various logical methods, such as the inductive, deductive, abductive, and consilience methods. The inductivist gathers empirical facts and observations and draws conclusions from them. The deductivist launches predictions to reach conclusions that are logically entailed in the premise, drawing knowledge from the general to test the specifics. The abductivist seeks causal explanations drawing conclusions from laws of probability and principles of parsimony. The consilience of inductions is the coincidence of consequences inferred from more than one class of facts from multiple experiments bearing on a single causal explanation. These and other methods of inference are found in evolutionary science and entail proof of theory, such as a deductive proof.Thompsma (talk) 19:13, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

Here is a recent example of proof by experiment in a BBC article on neutrino's travelling faster than the speed of light!! "We didn't think they were, and now we have the proof," he told BBC News."[9]Thompsma (talk) 21:08, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

This looks interesting - it could be put into paragraph form and I would like to see it inserted into the article. I would contest the following: "The common ancestry of life and natural selection are examples that apply universally to all known forms of life." This is a bit of an over simplification of the theory of NS. This depends on how you view the theory of NS - because stated as such it becomes a tautology. However: "In the past three decades the concept of a theory in science has undergone a transformation. Now a theory is thought of more and more as a model that purports to depict accurately the structure of a designated system in nature, rather than as a true or false universal statement."[10] However, you can say that NS applies to populations rather than all known forms of life.Claviclehorn (talk) 21:31, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Undid revision to H-W theory

I undid the recent deletions that Joannamasel made to the added paragraph on the H-W theory that was recently added. The reason for the deletion by Joannamasel was stated as follows:

• "→Theory: H-W is neither a theory of evolution (it is a theory of stasis), nor a null model to test for evolution (it is a null model to test for population structure). Neutral theory is the closest evolution gets to a (very flawed) null model.)"

The cited paper for that paragraph in Nature Scitables - the Nature Education project, contradicts Joannamasel's rational and states:

• "Natural selection, genetic drift, and gene flow are the mechanisms that cause changes in allele frequencies over time. When one or more of these forces are acting in a population, the population violates the Hardy-Weinberg assumptions, and evolution occurs. The Hardy-Weinberg Theorem thus provides a null model for the study of evolution, and the focus of population genetics is to understand the consequences of violating these assumptions."

Hence, I feel justified in my action. However, I made some slight revisions in light of Joannamasel's concerns and will continue working on this. However, I do not think it is fair for someone to outright delete cited material without raising the concerns in the discussion pages first. This gives everyone an opportunity to discuss the matter.Thompsma (talk) 23:24, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Hardy-Weinberg content is incorrect

The Hardy-Weinberg principle does not "calculate an expected frequency distribution of alleles". Given an allele frequency, it calculates an expected set of genotype frequencies. This is rather different. H-W makes no prediction whatsoever about allele frequencies, which it treats as parameters p and q that can take any value. H-W is not a null model for testing evolution. It is a null model for the absence of population structure. Use in the way cited would need to verified by more authoritative sources: the cited source is a very light and general teaching resource, with plenty of ambiguity and no details. For accurate details on H-W, please see Warren Ewens' "Mathematical Population Genetics" 2004, this monograph is an authoritative source. The details on H-W can be found on pages 2-6. Joannamasel (talk) 23:24, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

I have asked kindly for you to please give this time and to discuss the matter in here without making rash decisions and deleting work that was cited. I'm willing to address your concerns, but please do not delete the material that has been added until we have an opportunity to resolve our differences here. Thank you.Thompsma (talk) 23:31, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, I think there was a refresh issue, when I looked at the talk page after your reversion your section on H-W did not appear for me. To summarise the authoratitive source, Ewens states that H-W has significance in 2 ways. One is historical, as a solution to the vexing problems arising from the alternative theory of blending inheritance. The other is as a mathematical convenience of needing 1 parameter p rather than 2 parameters p and F (the inbreeding coefficient) when working with diploid replicator equations. The third way is to test for population structure. It only takes a single round of random mating, with or without violations of the other 4 assumptions, for the genotype frequencies to reach the proportions p^2 2pq and q^2.Joannamasel (talk) 23:34, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Genotypes is not the only issue. The source you cite has a cursor-hover definition of "model" that is abstract rather than statistical. You have no source showing the use of H-W as a statistical model, and you will not find one other than for use in testing population structure / assortative mating, because H-W is not used in the ways you describe. Your text goes into all kinds of details not present in your cited source, and so your text does not meet WP:V. Joannamasel (talk) 23:39, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback Joannamasel - if you can give me another day I'll work on this and will get it cleaned up. Of course I am using other sources to put this together and trying to balance the wording so that it can be simplified for a general audience. In doing so I may have made a few errors. I'll read through my sources to work this through. I think that the H-W theorem is a useful example - but might be convinced otherwise. It certainly relates to theory of evolution in context of random mating, which is why I added it as an example of how theory can be used for testing evolutionary patterns.Thompsma (talk) 23:57, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

I realize that H-W is not equivalent to the theory of evolution. However, I'm taking the approach that Mark Ridley in his evolution textbook follows and using H-W as an example of a theory in evolution. I think it helps to explain how theory works, that there is more to evolution than a single theory, and how the theory developed after Darwin. "The Hardy-Weinberg theorem is important conceptually, historically, in practical research, and in the workings of theoretical models." (Ridley, 2004, 3rd ed. p. 103) I realize that you Joannamasel may have a different conception or scheme on model - it is one of the more difficult terms to contend with in its multiple uses and meanings in the scientific literature. If written properly, however, I think we can use this important theorem to our advantage as a means to show evolution as theory (not as "a" theory). Thanks.Thompsma (talk) 03:51, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

The material in the article still contains multiple incorrect statements. Eg, "gene frequencies" is incorrectly used instead of "genotype frequencies". As another eg, H-W genotype frequencies are not a null hypothesis to test for drift: drift == sampling errors, which are the very definition of what a statistical test allows for. Yes, H-W is important historically and in the workings of theoretical models, but neither of those two are described in the current text. The current text needs both to be accurate (it is not) and to illuminate the role of theory. I still think the best thing to do is delete it. If you want a null hypothesis example, use neutral theory instead. I will have a brief go at rewriting, but if that fails, deletion of inaccurate an inadequately sourced material is the default outcome. Joannamasel (talk) 18:29, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

I would have spent the time fixing the text - but I'm happy with the recent changes that you had made. Of course the text needs to be accurate - but in future, please give editors time to work through the material before getting overly concerned about the mistakes. Wikipedia is not an instant fix. Scan around and look at some of the other articles on evolution. Most of them contain a lot of garbage material. This article and the main evolution article are cases in point. The text is evolving through edits and it goes through review processes where these things get ironed out. Thanks for your input.Thompsma (talk) 17:06, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

As an original contributor to a lot of this article I broadly welcome the recent changes. I do have some criticisms though. I was never so happy with saying a theory is defined as being 'established' even though I can plenty of references for this. Because I can also find the words 'new theory' together in scientific literature which contradicts this idea. So I welcome the change here but I think the article is slightly too long now, and the comparison with gravity (a paragraph which has been in for years) is not and never was really helpful. I would say the Hardy-Weinberg piece is not really relevant and kind of off-topic whether correct or not.

But my problem is this: it is sentence in the opening 'The statement is framed to clarify misconceptions about the philosophy of evolution primarily in response to creationist statements that "evolution is only a theory". It is true that this is sometimes the case, but it is also the true that the statement is often put out to differentiate evolution in the sense of 'directly' observable changes from something which is more wide reaching in terms of mechanism, explanatory power, causality, common ancestry etc. The second usage has plenty of quotes to back it up and applies even when no creationists (or anyone else who has misconceptions about 'theory') are around). — Axel147 (talk) 05:52, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Of course removing 'established' as a built-in part of of the definition of 'theory' which is the honest thing to do does dilute the argument that theory is used one way scientists and a different way by laypeople. — Axel147 (talk) 06:05, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Authors must never lose sight of the fact that the conundrum that some authors say 'evolution is fact and theory' while others say it is 'fact not theory' can be solved in 2 ways: one is that the same proposition can be both a theory (in the sense of it's explanatory and predictive power, ability to link other facts) and a fact (in sense of being overwhelmingly supported by evidence in its own right). The other way to solve the conundrum is to identify 2 different meanings for evolution: one involving more directly observable changes and one embracing things such as speciation, common ancestry. The challenge for the authors is to give these 2 answers appropraiate balance. — Axel147 (talk) 06:22, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

I think that this is a very constructive point.

I would just add that I think it is equally important to make clear that for scientists facts and theories are not in opposition but rather exist in relation one to the other. Many non-scientists think of facts as opposed to theories .... this in part is because they do not understand what we mean by "theory" (they think it means opinion or value judgement) but it also reflects a misunderstanding of what a "fact" is. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:03, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

I agree Slrubenstein. One aspect to this that makes it difficult is that theory has different meanings even in science and this changes over time. It can refer to a general class of ideas and as Claviclehorn indicated above: "In the past three decades the concept of a theory in science has undergone a transformation. Now a theory is thought of more and more as a model that purports to depict accurately the structure of a designated system in nature, rather than as a true or false universal statement."[11] I don't know if I entirely agree with that quote, but it does indicate that the idea is itself evolving. People often have a hard time accepting that science lacks certainty when they often turn to it for that very reason. I agree with the points that Axel147 has raised with respect to the statement about clarifying misconceptions "sometimes" and will change the wording to take this feedback into context. I concur that the gravity paragraph is a distraction and I would vote for its deletion. The H-W piece that I put in was a similar distraction, but I did have plans to work on that text to make it more relevant. However, this was fixed by Joanna and I like what she has done.Thompsma (talk) 22:43, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Removing paragraph comparing evolution to gravity

I would like to put forward a vote on removing the paragraph on "Evolution compared with gravity". It does not seem relevant enough. Some of the cited material and information could be transferred, but I would like to take a vote straw poll on removal with discussion to see if we can reach consensus.Thompsma (talk) 22:43, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

• SupportThompsma (talk) 22:43, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

I support the removal for reasons I outlined above. Some of the material can be merged.Thompsma (talk) 02:52, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

• SupportClaviclehorn (talk) 23:59, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
• We don't vote Instead we seek consensus. I'll revert any change that arises from a vote and not from a full discussion with a consensus. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 00:07, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

If you read the link to WP:VOTE it states that this kind of technique can be used for consensus building. Perhaps I should have used different term other than vote - like let's take a poll or see how others feel about this. Others are free to discuss.Thompsma (talk) 02:49, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

I changed the wording to address your concern OrangeMarlin ^{Talk•. Contributions} Are the changes satisfactory??Thompsma (talk) 03:57, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Why the fuck would you copy my signature and put it in your statement? It appears like I'm saying it. Otherwise all votes are bogus. Changing the verbiage is just a lame attempt to get around the guideline. Do what you please. I have a revert button handy. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 04:15, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Orangemarlin - please watch your language in here. Thompsma is a notable contributor in these articles and it is common practice to copy user names to refer to the person who is making the statement. Your comments are totally inappropriate.Claviclehorn (talk) 17:26, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

See WP:FUCK. So I can use whatever fucking language I want to fucking use at any fucking point in fucking time. Thompsona used my sig in his comment which was totally fucking confusing to me and other editors. See below.OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 18:48, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

If it IS common practice, it needs to stop. That use of Orangemarlin's sig DID confuse me. That Thompsma has been around for a long time tells me that he should know better. Just doing something because it's been done it before NEVER makes it right. HiLo48 (talk) 17:48, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Is there a rule on this? I've been contributing in here for four or five years - I practically wrote the entire ecology article from start to finish and never have I encountered this backlash. Hundreds of editors I have interacted with have adopted this practice and I've seen it used elsewhere. Why would it be offensive - I was merely trying to refer to OrgangeMarlin the way I thought was proper and the way that I thought OrangeMarlin would like to be referred? Certainly the rude backlash was uncalled for. As Claviclehorn stated we must Wikipedia:Assume good faith. I don't want to get into a squabble - I'll leave it at this to explain my intent. I want to focus on the content of the article, which is what really interests me.Thompsma (talk) 17:56, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

I don't particularly care what article you've written or not. I've written several FA, GA and DYK articles, and I don't brag about them at all. So moving on, putting my signature in your comment was totally confusing. But obviously you think it helps the discussion, and it was pointed out that it was confusing. But who cares, it's not relevant. The "rude backlash" was for a creationist POV pushing by doing two things: asking for a vote. And deleting a relevant section that debunks the silliness of creationist arguments. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 18:52, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

I'm not bragging OrangeMarlin - I am pointing out that I have had experience in here and your brutish behaviour is the first I have encountered with respect to this issue. Totally inappropriate, dysfunctional, and not even relevant. Swearing at other editors over such trivial matters sends a clear signal on your behaviour and way of thinking.Thompsma (talk) 19:08, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

I think the paragraph is totally relevant. I haven't seen a real reason for removing it. Does it weaken the case of creationists? HiLo48 (talk) 04:17, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

I agree. Totally relevant, but we should, of course, have a vote because one person doesn't get why it's there. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 04:38, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Orangemarlin's grumpiness is soundly based: anyone who spends time in the drama sections of Wikipedia understands that votes count for nothing, and are never used as the first step towards a proposal to alter an article. Any philosophical objections against wording in the article need to be balanced by knowledge of the limited context for the topic of this article (namely, evolution vs. creationism). Scrap the vote and explain why the section in question is not relevant to the topic. Johnuniq (talk) 06:12, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Johnuniq - it is not grumpiness - it is rude and inappropriate behaviour that should be flagged. It goes against Wikipedia:Assume good faith. As Thompsma corrected - this was not about votes, it was intended to raise the discussion to see where others stand on this issue. Orangemarlin's behaviour should not be welcomed nor encouraged.Claviclehorn (talk) 17:28, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Stick to the points dude. Why the creationist POV-pushing here? Explain it. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 18:54, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

What?? Nobody is doing a creationist POV-pushing - that is absurd!! Claviclehorn is a great editor and has contributed to the topic of evolution professionally. I suggest you check in to see the work that Claviclehorn has done on this topic elsewhere - definitely not a creationist. This is delusional.Thompsma (talk) 19:46, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

• It appears to be a cogent comparison, that has been made by a number of reliable sources, so I can see no reason for its removal. Are there any educators of science that are saying that it's a bad/confusing/etc comparison? Hrafn^Talk_Stalk(P) 07:10, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

• I think the "gravity" vs. "evolution" analogy is relevant to this article, and I see no reason to remove it. It is covered by multiple reliable sources. Admittedly that is a necessary rather than sufficient criteria for inclusion. But the whole purpose of this article is to explicate what is meant by the words "theory", "evolution" and "fact", and as such, the comparison with gravity is pertinent. The section could, of course, be rewritten for further clarity, but that's a perennial problem with every article. Is there a reason to remove it more specific than "It does not seem relevant enough"? Gabbe (talk) 08:15, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

I don't think the proposal is about removing the analogy from the article, it is about removing the section. As Thompsma stated from the outset: "Some of the cited material and information could be transferred." The information in that section can be merged into other parts and this seems reasonable. Unless people can provide WP:V sources that make this comparison notable enough - it does not seem reasonable for it to have it's own sub-section in this article.Claviclehorn (talk) 17:31, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Wow - I am totally surprised by the backlash from Orangemarlin and how this has turned out. The approach adopted here has been used numerous times in the main evolution article without dispute. I've been in here for years and have copied other user names to refer to them directly without quarrel. Many others have shared in this practice. Moreover, taking a straw poll on the issues is something that has also been used in the main evolution article and in other science articles where I have contributed. This is the first time I have encountered anger over such a thing. I never said nobody couldn't discuss the matter. In fact, it seems that my post has served its purpose - we are here discussing the issue. Now, instead of wasting our time bickering about this nonsense, let's all get along and deal with the content.

As Claviclehorn stated - I am not suggesting an outright delete. The material in that paragraph can be integrated elsewhere. The Dobzhansky reference to "Experimentally created incipient species of Drosophila" is particularly noteworthy. Regardless if this stays or not, it is unusual where this section is placed in relation to the structure of the article. It seems applicable to "Related concepts and terminology" - gravity is a related concept. This article has a tendency to bullet items and does a lot of quote mining. Is this a good practice? Creationists love quote mining - taking things out of context. Compare this change, for example [12] - with half a quote in place, the meaning was lost and it sounded like Muller was not in support of evolution. A paragraph essay format would be an improvement.Thompsma (talk) 17:49, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

[EC] Well let's get a lot clearer about exactly what this proposal IS about. Where will it be transferred to? HiLo48 (talk) 17:53, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose The source, "Evolution as Fact, Theory, and Path", compares gravity and evolution. Since the connection is made in serious writing, we would need an argument to remove it from the article. TFD (talk) 17:54, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose Responding to help bring this to a resolution. I do think this is a very useful example and seems directly relevant to the topic. I'd cite the ref TFD linked above to eliminate any potential challenge over the analogy being unsourced. I've seen the analogy used repeatedly in published texts, written to help overcome the confusion many people have over the terminology. (Opponents of evolution have in the past tried to exploit this confusion by forcing science texts to disclaim it, characterizing it as "just a theory".) And if readers already knew everything they wouldn't much need encyclopedias. Professor marginalia (talk) 01:44, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

Clarifying the proposal

Having an entire section on "Evolution compared with gravity" as it is currently written does not seem appropriate. There is one citation that gives this comparison - as noted above, but does this warrant an entire section devoted to this? Perhaps. The proposal is to take the information in that paragraph and integrate it into the text elsewhere. However, I would also be open to improving that section if we can find other sources to make it more comprehensive. The Gregory reference also refers to Path - should we open a new section on "Evolution as path"?? How notable is this? Certainly evolution is as much a fact as gravity is a common retort I have heard. Evolution as path - not so much. The questions being raised here - should there be an entire section devoted to this heading, or should the content of this section be integrated elsewhere? We can call this proposal 1 - retain, and proposal 2 - merge/integrate. I hope this helps.Thompsma (talk) 18:05, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

There is only one citation in that paragraph that refers to the gravity issue. The second paragraph is not cited and encroaches into WP:OR. The third paragraph is about observing evolution - which seems more relevant and I think is the actual topic at hand. Gravity is something that everyone is readily familiar with - so being able to witness something directly makes it more believable. This seems to be the comparison that is being made or implied. The last paragraph in the gravity section is just fluff.Thompsma (talk) 18:09, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

No one wants the change. Drop it. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 18:45, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

This is not true - there are three editors that are seeing the change. Just saying you want someone to drop an issue that you find objectionable is not a way forward. You are being unreasonable.Thompsma (talk) 19:09, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

I agree Thompsma - what is Organgemarlin's problem here? The points Thompsma raises are legit and Thompsma has also made some great contributions to this article. Axel147, myself, and Thompsma outlined issues with this section on gravity. Hence, your comment that no one wants the change is false. Thompsma is making constructive comments, you are making obstructive comments. Get with the game or go post elsewhere and stop being rude. We're adults here - at least I think we are.Claviclehorn (talk) 19:12, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Moving onto the relevant topic - this article [13] talks about student perspectives on evolution with a small reference to gravity: "Students seemed to differentiate between degrees of confidence in some theories depending on whether they can be proven or not...So for this student some theories are proven and some are not—kinetic theory and Newton’s laws have been tested and applied; relativity and evolution are not really scientific in the sense that they do not meet the same rigorous criteria of testing. Another student contrasted the law of gravitation (gravity is there—conflating the law with the phenomenon—also noted in Brickhouse et al., 2002) with the theory of evolution (evolution is postulated). This distinction was an unsuccessful attempt by the student to demonstrate what he perceived to be a critical epistemological difference between laws and theories." The Brickhouse et al. (2002) citation: Brickhouse, N., Dagher, Z., Letts, W., & Shipman, H. (2002). Evidence and warrants for belief in a college astronomy course. Science and Education, 11, 573–588. --> seems to be the focus that Thompsma has discussed. This is not so much about gravity, but the nature of belief in relation to degrees of confidence relative to personal experience. I'm having a difficult time tracing down other WP:V sources that discuss the gravity v. evolutionary theory. This paper [14] makes note of the following: "Examples of N-D Es include the law of gravity, diastrophism, and the full statement of natural selection (nonrandom, differential survival and reproduction of organisms)." N-D E = nomological-deductive explanations. This paper[15] states: "Scientists across disciplines consider the principles of evolutionary biology to be as fundamental to our understanding of natural processes as the principle of gravity." Coyne's book [16] makes the comparison in several places as well. These citations could be integrated, but first we need to make a decision on this topic. Should it be about gravity, or should it be about comparing evolution to other scientific theories in general while just using gravity as one example?Claviclehorn (talk) 19:24, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

I'm becoming more and more convinced that the gravity example dramatically weakens the creationist argument, hence some here wanting it removed. But that makes it a good reason for it to stay. I still haven't seen a reason for its removal. HiLo48 (talk) 19:35, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

HiLo48 - please read the proposal and discussion that has followed. Nobody has said to remove the gravity example, we are talking about ways to integrate this into the rest of the text or to improve on the section. I am a scientist who has published peer-reviewed articles on evolution. I have contributed to the main evolution article for years and teach courses on evolution at my university. Hence, you are reading the wrong message into this to suggest that I or anyone else who has commented on this issue that we are trying to remove this to favour a creationist stance. My goal is to improve on the content for the purpose of public outreach on this important topic. I suggest that others read through the paragraph with a critical eye and ask themselves if it is really doing a service. It is not an engaging paragraph, it isn't well cited, nor is it particularly well written. I like some of the suggestions that Claviclehorn has given with links to relevant articles. It seems that people are talking past one another on this issue - so I'm going to take a step back, do a re-write on this and will pitch the proposal then.Thompsma (talk) 19:43, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

OK, then stop waffling. I don't want justification for some nebulous change, as this seemingly usefully headed section seemed to turn out to be. Exactly what IS the proposal? (That is not a request for you to justify it. It's request to tell us what it is.) HiLo48 (talk) 19:51, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

As I said - please read the post above - the proposal is stated. You need to read first.Thompsma (talk) 19:54, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

No. This section is headed "Clarifying the proposal" but starts off telling us why you think we need to change. Further on there is "...integrate it into the text elsewhere". Where? Then we have "However, I would also be open to improving that section if...." Then you listed several questions. That is NOT a clarification. Maybe it was hidden elsewhere. Maybe I'm confused. But what you are proposing is certainly not obvious to me yet. HiLo48 (talk) 22:03, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Let me repeat: "The questions being raised here - (1) should there be an entire section devoted to this heading, or (2) should the content of this section be integrated elsewhere? We can call this proposal (1) - retain, and proposal (2) - merge/integrate." - A preamble is normal practice when putting together a proposal. I apologize if I have not been as clear as you would like, but I am here to help and work on this problem. Please be patient. There is a section in the article called "Related concepts and terminology" --> A sub-section in that part of the article could be created to address theories in general. It seems to me that gravity is a related concept.Thompsma (talk) 23:18, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

I do not think the point is (or should be) to compare evolution to gravity. I think the point should be to find an example that is less controversial than evolution, in order to explain our basic points about "theories" and "facts" as terms of art used by scientists to talk about how we think about the phenomenal world. New strains of flu emerge, we find fossil evidence for animals that share some features with modern birds and other features with dinosaurs, apples fall down and the moon orbits the earth ... these are all stuff one can observe given the right resources. I do not want to compare "evolution" and "gravity" but I do what to point out that a great many readers really do not understand how we use the words "theory" and "fact" and it would be good to give them an uncontroversial example to help them. I am not committed to "gravity," but it has two virtues: first, moast readers think it is a fact i.e. it is highly uncontroversial. Second, physicists are not certain what causes it or even what is the best description given that Newton's and Einstein's descriptions yeild conflicting predictions. I am jjust pointing out ays in which "gravity" is a good example for correcting some popular misconceptions about fact, theory and science. I think we face two questions: should we include such an example in the article? i think so (but we have to be clear we are not comparing evolution and gravity, we are comparing two examples in which what is fact and theory for scientists is not what a great many laypeople think). Second, should the example be gravity? I think it is a useful one but I am very open to alternatives. Slrubenstein | Talk 21:34, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Thanks Slrubenstein! Great to see you in here. You have captured the point I was trying to get across. Gravity is one example - should there be an entire section comparing gravity, or should the section compare evolution to other theories, such as the big bang, relativity, economic, and atomic theory? It might even be useful to compare it to theories in ecology and biology in general - the theory of the gene (Morgan, T.H. 1917. The theory of the gene. American Naturalist 51: 513-544.). "Shouldn't our students also know how to evaluate other scientific theories, such as general relativity, the atomic theory, and continental drift?"[ http://www.jstor.org/stable/3061533] I think the paragraph should be more broadly titled to something like - "Comparative theory" - or "Comparing theories", something of that nature under the section "Related concepts and terminology".Thompsma (talk) 21:52, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

This is getting silly and tendentious. This article is debunking one of the great creationist canards...."evolution is only a theory." Wow, didn't know that there was a scientific theory of "economics." But you are missing slrubenstein's singular point. This isn't about gravity, it's about evolution. Gravity is just the easiest to compare. I have no clue what you're going on about with "big bang" etc. Those aren't useful here, because this article is about evolution. And gene theory? IN 1917? Wow. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 07:53, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

I'm pretty much inclined to agree with your interpretation of Slrubenstein's comment; it seemed pretty obvious to me on my first read through it. I think the gravity example is about the best one we're going to get. It's one which most people will be familiar enough with, as it is something everyone learns in elementary school, and clearly illustrates how creationists are playing a game of semantics to defend an untenable position (the fact that the Cosmological fine-tuning argument even exists is because some creationists have stopped trying to play that game; those were the smarter ones). As a somewhat anecdotal aside, that's the example used in every philosophy class I ever took which even briefly discussed Paley's Watchmaker theory; not that we should keep it in based on that, but it helps bolster the broader point I made above. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 05:14, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

Whattamess. I'm deliberately avoiding entering into any blame gaming about who's to blame for saying what to who. I've experienced being on the receiving end, the silent bystander, and on an occasion or two launched blamey missives myself. I'm deliberately avoiding "going there" because I don't think it is constructive, nor will it smooth this dispute. Some disputes are obviously over content "couched" as something else, such as those transparently sidetracked into fusses over etiquette. This is a content dispute, and the incivility IS disruptive. But so is the fuss raised over it. This c**p draws volunteers off task. No work can ever get done here if volunteers allow themselves to get sucked into stupid stuff. Professor marginalia (talk) 07:48, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

Reigning this debate in

Let's take a step back here. Some editors have entered in here swearing for simple misunderstandings and accusing others for being creationist POV-pushers. This is like McCarthyism!! Many of the editors that are trying to contribute here have made lots of contributions in good faith on other evolutionary articles and topics. I suggest we halt this discussion for now. I'll work on a proposal and will come back to this when others have taken a moment to cool off and reconsider their recent posts. Editors must be able to work on these topics in good faith and not be bullied into not making constructive comments by being accused of being a creationist. This is totally unacceptable.Thompsma (talk) 19:54, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Please—no more school teacher commentary. This article is not about the general meaning of "theory"—it is about creationist misunderstandings. Anyone is welcome to propose a draft or to boldly edit. Johnuniq (talk) 23:53, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

You state: "This article is not about the general meaning of "theory"—it is about creationist misunderstandings." --> How can you separate the two? The title of the article is about "Evolution as fact and theory" - not "Creationists misunderstandings of Evolutionary theory". By providing a comprehensive explanation of what fact and theory means in context of evolution relative to other scientific facts and theories we can help clarify any misunderstandings. Page 160 of this book on "Defending Evolution"[17] (one aim of this article) talks about using the technique of comparing theory - such as cell theory, plate tectonics, heliocentric theory, and atomic theory of matter and then asking students to justify why they have different rules for one theory over another. This seems like a good strategy and one that Thompsma proposed. A section that addresses these issue and surveys that compare belief in Einstein's theory of relativity (<10% think it is not proven) to Evolution (49% think it is far from proven), for example, can cover the conceptual basis and system of belief of evolution over other scientific theories. Showing the bias is an important part of the controversy that this article can address in a more general section that not only compares evolution to gravity, but evolutionary theory to theories in general.Claviclehorn (talk) 00:27, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

The article wouldn't exist if creationists would quit using dumb fucking statements such as "it's only a theory." I believe that all of the Republican candidates for president use that fucked-up argument. So, Johnuniq is completely correct. This article is about evolution denialism and creationist twisting of science to meet their anti-science beliefs. Yes beliefs. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 07:49, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

I was wondering how to make precisely that point here without upsetting too many people. Noting that you possibly didn't care about that latter point, I'm still delighted to read that post. It depresses me that this modern global encyclopaedia has to constantly battle against backward, ignorant Bible bashers from conservative America. HiLo48 (talk) 10:53, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Actually, the more intelligent members of the Creobot crowd (which obviously excludes Perry, Gingrich, Bachmann, and others), don't use that canard anymore. If I'm not mistaken, AiG says to not use the "it's only a theory" argument. I'm not going to go to AiG to prove that, because I my computer might blow up if I do.  :) Anyways, in a real encyclopedia, where POV pushers weren't around, this article would be one sentence in a "Social" section of the Evolution article. But, without specifically criticizing Clavicle and Thompson, they haven't been around long enough to see the POV pushing nut jobs. I was around trying to write Intelligent design and Evolution, and this article was necessary because of the constant "vandalizing" by the POV pushing crowd about the "theory" of Evolution. That's why I ignore Clavicle's and Thompson's personal attacks, and stand very strongly against their changes. And I know every real scientist on Wikipedia will block changes that make no sense. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 18:41, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

I think the point is that, in the United States at least, one of the significant debates concerning educational policy (specifically, should creationism be a required part of the science education curriculum, is that "evolution is only a theory, not a fact." In this sentence, there is a misconception about what scientists mean by "fact," but there is also a misconception about what scientists mean by "theory," in that many people believe that when scientists call evolution a theory they man it is an opinion on personal belief. When I was in the 10th grade one week in social studies was devoted to the distinction between facts and value judgments, so this is a distinction that is made in other contexts (I think it comes from Weber). This issue is too complex to cover in a section of the Evolution article, which is why it has its own article.

Of course, the other major debate is that ID is a "scientific theory." This particular debate is I believe also covered in its own article. But I think this article is meant to complement the article on ID. Slrubenstein | Talk 18:47, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Belief in theory

Instead of comparing evolution with gravity, I propose a section on "Belief in evolutionary theory". This is what this paragraph is really after. I will make my argument and part of this text could be adapted (simplified) into a new section with this title. Why is the theory of gravity example so compelling? Because everyone believes in gravity - I explain further below. This relates to Claviclehorn's recent post on Einstein's theory of relativity vs. evolution. The former is believed true by the general public, while on scientific grounds they are both fact and theory in the way that Mayr defines them:

• "Facts...may be defined as empirical propositions (theories) that have been repeatedly confirmed and never refuted."[18]

Popper would say corroborated instead of confirmed. To Mayr, empirical proposition = theory. Gravity is a great example of an empirical proposition - things drop downward every single time, we are intimately familiar with the empirical nature of gravity which is why so many people believe in it - or as Gregory (2008) put it: "all readers of this article are at least casually familiar"[19]. This also relates to the Dobzhansky article that is cited in the current section on gravity. His paper on Drosophila has nothing to do with gravity (btw - further proving my point), but has to do with observing evolution directly, which goes back to the concept of belief. Why do scientist believe evolutionary theory is as good a theory as gravity, Einstein's theory of relativity, the big bang theory, or any other scientific theory while creationists do not? Scientists do not subscribe to subjective prejudice, they examine theory according to observation (=facts & low level hypotheses), experimental evidence (i.e., falsified hypotheses), and if it has proven robust to inference.

To scientists, prior conceptions do not influence degree of belief in one theory over another, whereas this is generally the way the public conceptualizes theory.[20] Creationists are instructed or use their belief to decide on the merit of one theory over another. Scientists are trained to use the abductive, inductive, and hypothetico-deductive tests or methods of inference to falsify and understand theory. Scientists do not put theories onto some imagined scale comparing them from fact to fiction. "And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts."[21] Theories are never used by scientists to establish certainty, but for generating hypotheses, for knowledge acquisition and to understand cause effect relations in the world. This applies to physics, chemistry, astonomy, or any branch of the natural sciences as much as it applies to evolution.Thompsma (talk) 02:52, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

• I would have a problem with the proposed section title -- I've seen far too many creationists take "belief" to mean 'religious belief', and would use such a section as 'evidence' that evolution is a religious belief, requiring 'faith'. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk(P) 06:06, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Is it correct to say "belief in evolutionary theory"? TFD (talk) 05:23, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

One does not "believe" in a scientific theory. "Belief in" implies faith or trust or confidence. Science doesn't work on beliefs, but in acceptance or rejection of the results, data, or the theory itself. We accept evolution because of the vast mountain of data supporting it. I'm getting tired of the creationist POV pushing. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 07:46, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

And what exactly is the "philosophy of evolution" mentioned in the lead? ArtifexMayhem (talk) 14:11, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

OrangeMarlin - there are no creationists posting here, please take your delusions elsewhere. Must we wear a badge of scientific allegiance? Your statement that scientists do not believe in things is pure hogwash. The reality is that your behaviour is more in line with the way that creationists address problems - they don't examine the evidence, but dismiss it outright and often resort to name calling, labelling, or any other behaviour they can resort to instead of allowing their views to stand up to scrutiny. Stop behaving like a creationist OrangeMarlin, because this is a scientific discussion we are holding in here. The difference is that scientists are ready and willing to abandon belief, whereas creationists are devoted and taught to hold onto their belief and doctrine:

• ""We believe that punctuational change dominates the history of life: evolution is concentrated in very rapid events of speciation (geologically instantaneous, even if tolerably continuous in ecological time)." (Gould & Eldredge, Paleobiology, 1977)[22]

Are you going to make the claim that Stephen J. Gould and Niles Eldredge are creationists because they "believe" in their theory?? Hmmm?? I can find hundreds of other peer-reviewed scientific articles that talk about scientific belief (for example, [23]). Scientists are not walking around with empty heads. We are human beings, after all. Thomas Kuhn in his famous book on the "Structure of Scientific Revolutions" states: "Observation and experience can and must drastically restrict the range of admissible scientific belief, else there would be no science."[24] The difference is that scientists are ready to abandon belief in light of the evidence. Currently, most scientists believe that Einstein was right and the speed of light is the speed limit of the universe. However, if experimental evidence on the speed of neutrino's proves otherwise, the theory will be abandoned and we will re-examine present theory in context of the new discovery. Here are two additional papers to consider for the content in this section: 1) Chinsamy, A., Plagányi. E. (2007) Accepting Evolution. Evolution, 62:248–254, [25] and 2) Williams, J. D. (2009) Belief versus acceptance: Why do people not believe in evolution? BioEssays 31:1255–1262 [26]. Given OrangeMarlin's resort to name calling and adhering to the kind of tactics that creationists use, I would not give much credibility to OrangeMarlin's input on this. In response to TFD's question "Is it correct to say 'belief in evolutionary theory'" - yes, scientists do believe in evolutionary theory.[27]Thompsma (talk) 17:19, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

In response to Hrafn's fear of using belief in the title, I think science can handle this. We should not shy away from using terms because creationists take belief to mean 'religious belief' in the same way that they think theory is a guess, the purpose of this article is to clarify those misconceptions. I don't believe in shying away from terminology while cowering in a corner for fear of the creationists. We're scientists - we can handle it. There is nothing to fear in an honest disclosure of what scientists are doing. That is the great strength of scientific theory.Thompsma (talk) 17:24, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Thompsa, you are taking advantage of the ambiguous way in which ordinary English words are used. The words fact, theory, belief can be used in different ways. A scienstist may for example find evolution to be the only coherent theory describing past events and predicting future archeological findings, but may believe that Adam was the first man, created by God. See for example, Creationist cosmologies#Appearance of age (light created in transit). TFD (talk) 17:54, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

I cannot tell if this is being done intentionally or unintentionally, but the consequences of all of these suggestions will be the same: weaseling the article to the point where it doesn't make the point it should. TFD...I'm in agreement. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 18:34, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

I support this idea - change to "Belief in evolution". OrangeMarlin is out of line in suggesting that there are creationists POV pushers in this discussion - a weird distraction. To TFD - Thompsma is NOT taking advantage of the English language, that is just the way language works - words have different meanings. Plus, Thompsma has provided WP:V showing that scientists do hold scientific beliefs. These quote's and papers seem relevant to this discussion:

• "A scientist, like any other human being, frequently holds views that are inconsistent with one another."[28]
• "The Structure of Scientific Revolutions swept away an outmoded, untenable theory of scientific progress and alerted scientists to the fact that there is more to scientific belief than simply rigorous proof structures. If some of the implications of his ideas about why we believe what we do in science still seem uncomfortable, that can only be a further stimulus to thinking about the nature of scientific knowledge and belief."[29]Claviclehorn (talk) 18:05, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Creationists POV pushing attempt to use the English language to conflate real science with their false "beliefs". Period. And Clavicle...spare me your personal attacks. I have NEVER fucking accused you of being a Creationist or a POV pusher. However, your and Thompsma changes may unintentionally assist the creationist POV. If you want me to write in boring platitudes to spare your think skin, then grow a pair, and learn how it works around here. I'm tough. Deal with it. I think you're wrong. Deal with it. Attacking me to make your point is a waste of my fucking time. Engaging my criticism of your changes, well that we can work with. Figure it out. Don't figure it out. Your problem not mine. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 18:31, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

So when a meterologist says, "I believe it will rain tomorrow" and a theologian says, "I believe the world will end tomorrow", whey are using the word "believe" in the same way and they could resolve the dispute using using empirical data. TFD (talk) 18:53, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

I too am a little confused by Claviclehorn's commnt. Kuhn's book certainly does not do away with the idea that science includes an accumulation of knowledge about the universe, he simply showed that this process itself has a history. I have no idea what anyone could mean by "the fact that there is more to scientific belief than simply rigorous proof structures." Claviclehorn, can you explain this to me? If anyone achieved this, surely it was Galileo or maybe Descartes, and not Thomas Kuhn. Don't we all learn in high school that "rigorous proof structures" are qualities only of mathematics and logic, and not science, which works by developing models of the universe that are based on and held accountable to (through predictions for example) empirical evidence? Surely, this is what Kuhn believes, right? When a scientist says she believes in a theory, the word "believes in" clearly does not have the same definition as it has when the average person (I exclude for present purposes Mortimer Adler) says she believes in God, or believes in the Bible. Nothink Kuhn wrote suggests that science and religion are comparable or that scientific beliefs are assessed the same way religious beliefs are. Even the major monotheistic religions distinguish between knowledge from revelation versus knowledge from the senses, and claim that they have different criteria. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:01, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

By the way, I am not at all convinced most people believe in Einstein's theory of gravity. I think one can say that with regards to gravity most people are happy to defer to the authority of scientists. But most people do not understand Einstein's theory and I think if pressed would say they belive it only because scientists say it is true. From a sociological point of view, the fascinating puzzle is why they do not have the same attitude concerning the life sciences. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:01, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Slr, I think that most people accept the very basic Newtonian theory of gravity, that is, something pulls a smaller object to a larger object. The theory of relativity, of course, is probably outside of a lot of laymen's understanding. I find the sociological point of view also fascinating. I took biology in high school in what I would consider to be a very conservative, religious state. We were taught evolution as if it was a fact of life. Dinosaurs were around millions of years ago. The earth was formed billions of years ago. No arguments. It's a very recent phenomenon, and I also think it has cross from the life sciences into the earth sciences. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 19:07, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

OrangeMarlin - Don't you have a GOP debate to get to? I think I hear Michele Bachmann calling your name - she might need you for something, you better hurry. If you are not going to be helpful, I suggest you leave.Thompsma (talk) 19:57, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Really? Another personal attack? Keep it up kid. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 20:10, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Slrubenstein - those were quotes that Claviclehorn supplied with links to the peer-reviewed scientific articles where they were printed - they were not comments by Claviclehorn. The belief in Einstein's theory was based on a study reference in a book[30] that Claviclehorn provided. This study[31] also points to a general belief in gravity, but most don't see gravity as a theory. So even if you disagree with the content, that is inconsequential in terms of threshold for inclusion. There are studies showing that most people do believe that gravity is a fact, but you might be correct that most would not see gravity as a theory.

It was Thomas Kuhn who changed the way that we view science not as advancing knowledge solely on the basis of the scientific method, but that it advances through paradigms and revolutions - many scientific papers and philosophers have made the same kind of commentary. If you read Kuhn's book you will learn that he talks about the way that new theories are assimilated into science leading to a re-assessment of current fact and reconstruction of prior theory, that is the revolution or paradigm shift that his book is about. Kuhn raised the issue of science as a collective venture - networks of theory. Of course Kuhn understood in rigorous proof structures (i.e., the scientific method), but his book demonstrated that the actual practice of science is much more than the scientific method. The fact is that scientist regularly write about their beliefs:

• "For in the most profound of senses, all scientific knowledge is “only a theory”. Religious belief is a matter of revealed truth and is thus (within interpretive limits) unchanging. Scientific belief, on the other hand, is even in principle only valid as long as it can resist attempts to show that it is wrong. Indeed, whereas science as a whole embodies a profound feeling that progress can be made—for otherwise, what is the point of the whole enterprise?—there is no way in which we can make scientific progress unless we can demonstrate that what we now believe is wrong or at least incomplete."[32]Thompsma (talk) 19:57, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

The point is this - there is sufficient WP:V, actually there are FAR more resources that talk about scientific belief in evolution than there are resources comparing evolution to gravity. My current thesis research focuses on scientific education and psychology - I can provide a lot of studies that look at belief systems in relation to theory. There is lots of literature that can be used to discuss these points in terms of perceptions of belief, surveys, and contrasting this information against the way that scientific belief works in context of evolutionary fact and theory.Thompsma (talk) 19:57, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

See WP:TLDR and WP:TEND. BTW, books are often not peer-reviewed. Bet you didn't know that. But you should, if you're working on a "thesis." OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 20:12, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

I will respond to your TLDR. I was forced to R, because I wanted to see if you really made any sense. Once you say "only a theory", I am forced to conclude that you have not read this article and you lack a certain insight into what is a theory. All scientific knowledge is NOT a theory. Some is just a guess at the lowest level. A theory is so high up the scale that it is a fact. Religious belief is not a fact. Belief by its very nature is accepting something despite evidence to the contrary. That's faith. Science cannot possibly believe because it only comes to a fact (read theory) when there is a mountain of evidence. But in the end, what makes a theory is it's testability or falsifiability. That is not based on "belief." Now, when are you going to quit the childish, immature personal attacks. I believe that they will cost you. I believe they lessen your ability to make an argument. I believe that they bore the living shit out of me. I believe that they demolish your arguments. I believe that they will get you blocked. I believe that they will not get you a consensus. I believe that you should stop. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 20:21, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

OrangeMarlin - you will note that Thompsma quoted the piece on "only a theory" - it came from the article cited at the end: [33] You will notice that the link takes you to a peer-reviewed article in the journal titled: Evolution: Education and Outreach. Not only did Thompsma read this article, if you check the history logs you will see that Thompsma has been a significant contributor to this article. Thompsma recently re-wrote the lead with Joanna Massel (an evolutionary biologist) and made most of the changes for the better to large parts of the article. I am also a professor of biology. Please refrain from dragging this conversation away from the topic, if you are not going to contribute - please leave.Claviclehorn (talk) 21:27, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Back to bragging I see. You don't even have a clue as to what my credentials are, because ignore all fucking credentials. We don't give a shit about anyone's credentials. OK, if Richard Dawkins (and we were able to confirm it was him) showed up, then I might bow to his superior knowledge of the field. But you're just some guy on the internet, no different than I (oh wait, maybe not), so all I can say is that you're fighting a battle by personal attack and not by logic. You have a bug up your tight ass about me. You'll note that I don't give a shit. You have convinced not one of the anti-creationists here of your arguments. Not one. You focus on me because you realize I don't fucking like your methods. So, two suggestions. Get over yourself, no one cares if you're a professor of anything at whatever religious university you're at. Two, quit the personal attacks. Because you don't say "Jesus Fucking Christ you're a loser" doesn't make you civil, it just makes you passive aggressive. Like the little passive aggressive shit you left on my talk page. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 23:21, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

The point, Orangemarlin, is not about credentials, but you are accusing others who are professional scientists in real life who have made genuine and substantial contributions to science articles as being creationist POV pushers. You will notice in the credential page that it states: "other than as a possible indicator of expertise", which is the point that Claviclehorn was making. There is no evidence to back up your claim that either myself or Claviclehorn are creationist POV pushers. Just because people are posting information that you may dislike, this does not mean that it can't be discussed and if it meets the WP:V threshold, then it can be included. Nobody is personally attacking you, editors are responding to your comments. I would prefer to engage with you in a real dialogue, but it does not seem you are interested. It looks like Claviclehorn tried to move the discussion to your talk page, by you are deleting those posts. People are free and encouraged to discuss the topic. Be polite to other contributors - please. Thanks.Thompsma (talk) 00:30, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

Ok, time out.

I understand what started OM off as upset over the signature copying a couple of days ago. I AGF that it was ignorance and not malice, but that was an extremely unusual thing for someone to try to do.

That said - This has degenerated into the least useful kind of mutual name-calling and disrespect at this point.

Both sides are in violation of the Wikipedia policies on assuming good faith, civil and constructive collaboration, and no personal attacks.

It is true that enforcement of name-calling and overenforcement of the civility policy is controversial. However, at least two of you are now making clear personal attacks. That needs to stop here and now.

I can't make you like each other. I can't clarify the content dispute moreso than you all talking about it. But if you're both going to descend into those sorts of attacks on each other, you'll be warned more personally, and if need be blocked to stop it.

This is why the civility policy exists. Getting abusively rude with each other obscures the underlying (quite legitimate) content and policy discussions, and makes it entirely about who's the better curser and who has thinner or thicker skin. It's damaging the whole conversation here. It is entirely and absolutely contrary to actually finding consensus. What both of you are doing now is just disruptive, not encyclopedia-building in any ways.

Gotta stop. Please stop it yourselves. The discussion can and should continue, but the attacks need to be over now.

Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 00:44, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

• Comment Again, to help bring this to a resolution. "Belief in evolution" is confusing. Yes, you will find that phrase used in a vernacular sense. And no, we don't need go to Kuhn and over-complicate the issue. Call it something like "Acceptance of evolution" and check this one off the To Do list. It's less potentially confusing, more accurately phrased, and one less thing to fight about. Professor marginalia (talk) 01:53, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

• Definitions

theory, n.

4a. A scheme or system of ideas or statements held as an explanation or account of a group of facts or phenomena; a hypothesis that has been confirmed or established by observation or experiment, and is propounded or accepted as accounting for the known facts; a statement of what are held to be the general laws, principles, or causes of something known or observed.

{{{1}}}6. In loose or general sense: A hypothesis proposed as an explanation; hence, a mere hypothesis, speculation, conjecture; an idea or set of ideas about something; an individual view or notion. Cf. 4.

science, n.

1a. The state or fact of knowing; knowledge or cognizance of something specified or implied; also, with wider reference, knowledge (more or less extensive) as a personal attribute. Now only Theol. in the rendering of scholastic terms, and occas. Philos. in the sense of ‘knowledge’ as opposed to ‘belief’ or ‘opinion’.

5b. In modern use, often treated as synonymous with ‘Natural and Physical Science’, and thus restricted to those branches of study that relate to the phenomena of the material universe and their laws, sometimes with implied exclusion of pure mathematics. This is now the dominant sense in ordinary use. Also attrib., as in science-class, science-master, science-teacher, science-teaching.

belief, n.

The word shows considerable semantic overlap with the later French loan faith n. Especially in theological use, a distinction is frequently made between the two words, belief referring either to the intellectual assent to certain propositions or dogmas, or to the acceptance of the existence of God or another god, faith involving personal trust and commitment.

I.{{{1}}} Mental conviction.

4a. Something believed; a proposition or set of propositions held to be true. In early usage esp.: a doctrine forming part of a religious system; a set of such doctrines, a religion.

4b. Philos. A basic or ultimate principle or presupposition of knowledge; something innately believed, a primary intuition.

5b. With in. Acceptance or conviction of the existence or occurrence of something.

{{{1}}}6. With that. Acceptance that a statement, supposed fact, etc., is true; a religious, philosophical, or personal conviction; an opinion, a persuasion.

{{{1}}}7. Without construction: assent to a proposition, statement, or fact, esp. on the grounds of testimony or authority, or in the absence of proof or conclusive evidence. Also (chiefly Philos.): the way in which pure reason acknowledges objects existing beyond the reach of empirical evidence or logical proof.

—Oxford English Dictionary(Online ed.), Oxford University Press. September 2011.

Belief in evolution is incorrect on face. —ArtifexMayhem (talk) 02:42, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

Done case closed. Maybe we can move on to something useful. Thanks Artifex, you spend the time looking this stuff up to settle it. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 04:33, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

Before you get too excited OM, the case is not closed. The problem is that you are reading past my posts. You have completely missed my point. The point was not to write that scientists hold a belief in evolution and this is the same as a religious persons belief in God suggesting that we can boil this all down to holding different sets of beliefs and leave it at that. Of course I fully understand that science is not a system of beliefs. The goal was to introduce a section that visits the literature that deals with belief in evolution, which has bearing on fact and theory. The purpose for the proposed section was to deliver on some of the recent literature in educational studies published in journals such as Science Education (e.g., [34]), and Evolution, Education, and Outreach (e.g., [35], [36]) that explores student belief in relation to different theories, such as gravity vs. evolution.

"I believe that, given the right conditions, replicators automatically band together to create systems, or machines, that carry them around to work to favour their continued replication." - Richard Dawkins, Selfish Gene

"I believe it is possible to discern hidden group-selectionist assumptions lying behind a large number of statement sthat biologists make about social organization." - Richard Dawkins, Selfish Gene

"For scientific belief, epidemiology merely comes along afterwards and describes the history of its acceptance. For religious belief, epidemiology is the root cause." - Richard Dawkins, A Devil's Chaplain.

Many of the most notable scientists have clearly talked about scientific belief and in peer-reviewed publications and books. What is the difference? I believe an honest disclosure showing how scientific belief contrasts against creationists belief will help this article. This is a harmless enterprise I am proposing and it is not masking a creationist agenda. It is a simple edit I am proposing and nothing drastically out of line from the extensive amount of work I have already done to improve this article.Thompsma (talk) 08:31, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

This strategy has been used by many scientists working to promote on the idea of evolution. This text [37], for example, put together by the National Academy Press raises the following question with an answer:

"Isn’t belief in evolution also a matter of faith? Acceptance of evolution is not the same as a religious belief. Scientists’ confidence about the occurrence of evolution is based on an overwhelming amount of supporting evidence gathered from many aspects of the natural world. To be accepted, scientific knowledge has to withstand the scrutiny of testing, retesting, and experimentation. Evolution is accepted within the scientific community because the concept has withstood extensive testing by many thousands of scientists for more than a century."

It is fair to draw on these scientific sources to frame these issues in an effective way. I draw on one last quote from a committee report by the American Society of Naturalists under the title Evolution, Science and Society (Meager and Futuyma Eds. 2001) [38] - see also[39]:

"Evolutionary theory is a body of statements about the processes of evolution that are believed to have caused the history of evolutionary events. Biological (or organic) evolution occurs as the consequence of several fundamental processes. These processes are both random and nonrandom."Thompsma (talk) 09:05, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

I'm here but a few hours and I'm coming to a fuller appreciation why some editors' tempers were stretched to the breaking point. Professor marginalia (talk) 09:21, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

Here in Australia we once had a very well known politician who actually sought the position of Minster for Science. After some time in the role he loudly expressed his total frustration with the absence of effective communication skills among the nation's top scientists, particularly when expected to work in a different style from normal, such as when seeking funding. Do we have a similar problem here? HiLo48 (talk) 09:56, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

• "Many of the most notable scientists have clearly talked about scientific belief and in peer-reviewed publications and books. What is the difference?"

The difference is that they are either proposing a new idea or talking, discussing, opining, what have you, specifically on the topic of belief. Your earlier Google search[40] boils down to statements like:

"We believe that these statistical issues would tend to lessen the distinction in the degree of hummingbird and insect pollination for those species that are predominately"... • ... "We believe that the book will serve as a melting pot, bringing together biologists, oncologists, mathematical biologists and computer scientists"

This is called putting forward a hypothesis and should not be used as a point of comparison within the topic at hand. Your own sources are very clear on this:

In the teaching of science, language plays a central role. As well as explaining scientific terminology, decoding the structure of scientific language and identifying the roots, prefixes and suffixes that characterise scientific narrative, teachers and scientists should reject talk of a ‘belief’ in evolution. This approach also serves to resolve, in part, the issue of a rejection of evolution due to a clash with an established religious viewpoint. We do not, for example, talk about ‘belief’ in gravity or atoms; we accept them due to the weight of scientific evidence. The same is true for evolution. It is accepted as a scientific fact due to the weight of evidence.

—Williams, James D. (2009). "Belief versus acceptance: Why do people not believe in evolution?". BioEssays. 31 (11): 1255–1262. doi:10.1002/bies.200900082.

The common and scientific definitions of “theory,” unlike of “fact,” are drastically different. In daily conversation, “theory” often implicitly indicates a lack of supporting data. Indeed, introducing a statement with “My theory is...” is usually akin to saying “I guess that...”, “I would speculate that...”, or “I believe but have not attempted to demonstrate that...”. By contrast, a theory in science, again following the definition given by the NAS, is “a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that can incorporate facts, laws, inferences, and tested hypotheses.” Science not only generates facts but seeks to explain them, and the interlocking and well-supported explanations for those facts are known as theories. Theories allow aspects of the natural world not only to be described, but to be understood. Far from being unsubstantiated speculations, theories are the ultimate goal of science.

—Gregory, T. Ryan (2008). "Evolution as Fact, Theory, and Path" (PDF). Evolution: Education and Outreach. 1 (1): 46–52. doi:10.1007/s12052-007-0001-z.

This article is not the place to discuss the "philosophy of evolution" or "scientific belief". Why Theory == Fact is the topic. –ArtifexMayhem (talk) 12:28, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

I disagree ArtifexMayhem. I'll be outlining a paragraph shortly that will help with this. Eliot Sober, a philosopher who has written extensively on the topic of evolution (e.g., this [41] recent paper in Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences) published this book [42] on "Evidence and evolution: the logic behind the science". On pages 3-4 he talks about evidence and belief as a starting point on a book that aligns with this article - fact and theory are tied to logic and evidence. I have other literature that I will be drawing from into the structure of a new paragraph that I will put in here for a proposal. This paragraph will still introduce the comparison of gravity to evolution, but it will widen the context. This study [43], for example, investigated the way that college students compared evolution, astronomy, gravity, and other theories in relation to evidence, belief, and theory. It is also noteworthy that Charles Darwin referred to his belief extensively in the Origin of Species and elsewhere: "Thus it is, as I believe, that when the males and females of any animal have the same general habits of life..."[44] "The explanation, I believe, lies in the nature of the climate before the commencement of the Glacial period."[45] -->Darwin's use of the term belief and "I believe" was extensive. This is besides the point. The important point is that belief, fact, theory, and evidence ARE tightly interwoven and other experts in the field have written about this - more extensively than comparing evolution to gravity.

I realize I made an error in the way I put my proposal together originally. For this I apologize. It was my sincere intent to stimulate collaborative input and my strategy was a failure. I'll complete the paragraph and will return here with the proposal completed. I think I can convince others of my proposal, but if not, I'm sure something positive will come out of the effort.Thompsma (talk) 07:57, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

This paper [46] sets the tone for the paragraph I am developing: "Despite being an established and accepted scientific theory for 150 years, repeated public polls show that evolution is not believed by large numbers of people." This should also clarify the link I am making between belief, fact, and theory. "We can never rationally justify a theory, that is to say, our belief in the truth of a theory, or in its being probably true." Karl Popper (The Logic of Scientific Discovery[47], p. 281 - on corroboration of theory and how belief ties in).Thompsma (talk) 08:29, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

OK Thompsma, we're talking at two very different intellectual levels here, and maybe the article could try to reflect that. As I see it the ONLY reason the gravity example gets mentioned is to refute claims that evolution is only a theory, which come from creationists with very poor scientific education, and who are never going to comprehend the depth of philosophical content you are proposing. The line about gravity is a great rebuttal. Very effective. It doesn't need astronomy or anything else added to it. That would unnecessarily complicate things. The gravity thing is effectively independent of the stuff you are discussing. HiLo48 (talk) 08:38, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Yeah time to move on. Nobody is reading the TLDR. Everyone understands why the gravity analogy is there. Well, everyone that is a real scientist. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 08:53, 12 December 2011 (UTC)