Talk:Hip hop music

The greatest rapper to have ever lived and still living,who was born shawn Carter to be later re-borne as JAY-Z

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Rapping

This article covers the topic completely. It is well written, accurate, sourced, and readable. I would like to recieve more feedback before I nominate it as an FA candidate.

1. Old peer review Wikipedia:Peer review/Rapping/archive2 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chubdub (talk • contribs) 22:10, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
   • Old old peer review Wikipedia:Peer review/Rapping/archive1 Tim Ivorson 2006-05-28

• I started off the last peer review, and I'll start off this one also.
• See also First FAC

• Per WP:CONTEXT and WP:MOSDATE, years, decades, and centuries without full dates generally should not be linked. For example, January 2006 should not be linked, instead change it to January 2006. Also, please note WP:BTW and WP:CONTEXT, which state that years with full dates should be linked. For example, February 28, 2006, should be come February 28, 2006.

• Per WP:MOS#Headings, headings generally do not start with the word "The". For example, ==The Biography== would be changed to ==Biography==.
• I think "History" can still be made more comprehensive

• Per WP:CONTEXT and WP:BTW, years with full dates should be linked; for example, link January 15, 2006, but do not link January 2006.
• Thanks, AndyZ _t 22:59, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

It seems as though all of your concerns have been addressed, except perhaps adding to the history section. What would you want added there?--Urthogie 10:27, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

The external links section describes the BBC page as a wiki. Is this accurate? Tim Ivorson 2006-05-28

The flow section has a link labelled "prosody", which points to a disambiguation page. I don't know which of the, presumably related, meanings of prosody is intended, but one of them is meter (poetry), which is linked from the next paragraph. If they both mean the same thing, only one of them needs to be a link, according to WP:MOS-L#Internal links.

In the same section, it would be nice to expand the discussion of metre. The article mentions Run-DMC as employing trochaic pentameter, but I found a web disussion, [1] which quotes Dana Gioia as using Run-DMC as an example of accentual metre (rather than accentual-syllabic metre, of which trochaic pentameter is an example):

Rap consciously exploits stress-meter's ability to stretch and contract in syllable count. In fact, playing the syllable count against the beat is the basic metrical technique of rap. Like jazz, rap extravagantly syncopates a flexible rhythm against a fixed metrical beat thereby turning a traditional English folk meter into something distinctly African-American. By hitting the metrical beat strongly while exploiting other elements of word music, rappers play interesting and elaborate games with the total rhythm of their lines. Here is a syncopated couplet from Run DMC:

He's the better of the best, best believe he's the baddest

Perfect timing when I'm climbing I'm the rhyming acrobatist

(14 and 16 syllables respectively)

. . . .

If rap were a written form of poetry, its complex syncopation would frequently push the meter to a breaking point. A reader would not always know exactly where the strong stresses fell. See how difficult it is to discern the four strong stresses in the first Run DMC couplet quoted, simply from the printed text . . . . Anglo-Saxon poets understood the problem inherent in strong-stress verse. That is at least one reason why they added alliteration to reinforce the meter. In rap the meter is also enforced by what its performers call "the beat," usually a pre-recorded digitally sampled rhythm-track. Traditional prosody describes the rhythm of poetry as the meaningful counterpoint of speech pattern against a fixed abstract meter. That same principle of expressive counterpoint is quite literally what rap does and its audience hears and enjoys.

I'd go ahead and edit, but I don't know how to tackle this. Tim Ivorson 2006-05-28

word. i'll try and add something that explains how much it varies-- but i'm not music theorist!!--Urthogie 18:46, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

I think I can explain it in layman's terms...PCP MC 14:44, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Not RAP

HIP-HOP isnt RAP

HIP-HOP is a way of life and different urban ways of life that embody things like Graffiti, Break dancing, music, within music Rap and RnB are associated hip-hop styles of music...

I want to be an idealist like you, too, who has no idea what hip-hop is anymore. I want to live in the 1980s, before corporate America crushed breakdancing and made the rags-to-riches dream possible for inner city youth. I'm sure that somewhere in a corner of the universe that still isn't in the year 2006, people are doing what you're parroting about: graf, breaking, and "music." Unfortunately, for the rest of the world, hip-hop has been consolidated into a very competitive machine of just music. The rest of it all, from dancing to the fashion, comes from the videos and the live performances. You can still rep the archaic B-boy lifestyle all you want, you'll just look less and less relevant each day. --Mod 20:42, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Reorg, more to come

I moved some stuff around. I thought it best to start what a description of what hip hop actually is, so I moved that stuff into a section at the top. I tend to think that should be expanded, and I'd like to move some of the detailed history stuff to history of hip hop music, where we can go into detail on every little thing that happened. I tend to our genre articles are history-heavy in general... I'm partially to blame for that. I also removed a section, put it in roots of hip hop music (because there's already a subarticle there, so I didn't have to write a summary). Tuf-Kat 08:25, September 5, 2005 (UTC)

And its done. The history section here could probably use a copyedit to make it flow better, since I mostly cobbled together bits and pieces from the various sections. Tuf-Kat 04:42, September 7, 2005 (UTC)

Moved from top

A relative of rap actually predates Hip Hop music in country. If I understand what you mean by "country rap", (made popular by Johnny Cash and stuff like that?) Where they dont really flow over the beat, but practically talk at a steady spead. That is actually unrelated to Hip Hop Music. Them country folk call that there a "talkin' record".

I moved your comment from the top of the page, because newer comments generally go at the bottom. I'm not sure what you're referring to, as this article doesn't mention anything about that. If you're talking about the link to an article that doesn't yet exist in the box (country rap), I think that's referring to modern stuff like Cowboy Troy, not the "talkin' record". Tuf-Kat 01:17, September 9, 2005 (UTC)

I stand corrected -- the link was broken. There's an article at country-rap. Tuf-Kat 01:17, September 9, 2005 (UTC)

West Africa (moved from middle of page)

What is the basis of the claim that Hip Hop, which is as far as I can tell according to what the evidence shows, a strictly American art form, derives in part from West Africa or Jamaica? This seems like a retcon. Hip-Hop requires relatively modern, Western, inventions to produce. I mean, you can claim that anime derives from cave paintings, and in some sense you might be right, but is it meaningful?

FWIW, James Brown and Gil Scott-Heron's performances sound no more like Hip-Hop than Bob Dylan's did, to me. Also, there are several rapping and dancing traditions across history and cultures, from India to Australia. There's also square dancing... So why are some sources considered more valid influences than others in qualifying for "root" status when they share similar percentages of features to Hip-Hop? This seems like subjectivism in the extreme.

Like anything else disputable in Wikipedia, we determine what qualifies for inclusion using sources. Craig Werner's A Change Is Gonna Come traces hip hop to various things, including African music and the Last Poets, but doesn't mention square dancing or Bob Dylan (interestingly, he does mention "The Name Game" of all things and cites the whole section to Afrika Bambaata). This article should, perhaps, be more direct about citing sources, however. Tuf-Kat 19:46, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

To more directly respond to your question: there's no basis for supposing that anything that bears superficial similarities to hip hop is part of the roots of hip hop music. Russian chastushka and Scottish mouth music, for example, may have some similarities, but unless there is evidence that the people that invented hip hop had any knowledge or interest in those subjects, it's not relevant. The people that invented hip hop were part of a culture that derives from West Africa, and who used various techniques that can be traced back through the 20th century, all the way through slave times in some cases and back to the very limited documentation we have of West African music prior to European contact. It's not about the percentage of features shared between different styles, it's about what techniques were used by a group of people prior to hip hop and were then by the same people adapted for use in hip hop. Tuf-Kat 19:56, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

Blah blah. At any rate, for those of you musical illiterates who are interested, the first "rap" number of any influence was Bob Dylan's 1965 "Subterranean Homesick Blues" from "Bringing it all home". Please, listen to the sample provided by Amazon or similar retailers. This is a high-profile performer, and his influence has likely been greater than West Africa in recent decades. The term "rap" was in wide usage early in the 20th century and referred to the "talking" portion of folk songs (or folk songs that were nothing but talking). Having said this, it's worth pointing out that the question of "Who invented rap?" is similar to, "Who invented low-cost stink bombs?" It can't really be a point of pride, whatever the facts are.

Haha, completely innacurate. If you define rap as the rhythmic delivery of rhymes over a beat, it was going on in africa centuries before mr. dylan. If you define rap as hip-hop rapping, then the first example would be in the toasts carried over by DJ Kool Herc to America, which merged with the disco rapping of DJ Hollywood. I urge you to read Rapping so you can get your knowledge straight. Peace, --Urthogie 21:14, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

From the rapping page: "Rapping, the rhythmic delivery of rhymes." Well, I guess we could conclude that Virgil and Ovid were among the first rappers. Actually: I think that a good definition of anything is going to take into account the real distinctions between it and similar things. Rap has a certain "sound" that is easily discernable, and it's a sound that (among recordings I have heard) first shows up in SHB by Dylan. (The Rolling Stone's Memo from Turner is another early one.) Now, you can say, "Oh, but only music that is derived from Africa counts." That's a bit ethnocentric, no? Of course, we see this in other fields as well: The Vikings (and others) beat Columbus to the New World. Edison didn't really invent the lightbulb, Gallileo didn't invent the telescope, etc. Yet the credit usually goes to the big promoters, the salesmen, of a thing. Those African-influenced performers turned rap into a large-scale force, but they WEREN'T the inventors or even the primary innovators.

Please cite a source if you want to make any changes to the article. Tuf-Kat 02:55, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Hey, anon, please sign your posts. Despite another attempt at deligitamizing this page, you're wrong yet again. Yes, the greeks were rapping, by the definition of rhythmic rhymes. That doesn't mean they were the roots of hip hop, just as the vikings weren't the root of the United States. I urge you to think out you're largely flawed arguments before you place them on the talk page. And by the way, the primary innovators of rap have been in hip-hop; the prosody and cadence of Greek "rappers" wasn't nearly as complex as Rakim's jazzed out, yet relaxed flow. The reason you think Dylan is the first modern rapper just shows that you need to go back and listen to some more music. Thanks,--Urthogie 08:30, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Brittanica error

I have made a listing for "hip-hop" at Wikipedia:Errors in the Encyclopædia Britannica that have been corrected in Wikipedia#hip-hop because I feel Britannica's opening for that article is misleading or outright wrong. The issue revolves around the claim that hip hop is the backing music for rap, the musical style incorporating rhythmic and/or rhyming speech that became the movement's most lasting and influential art form. Tuf-Kat 20:31, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

Images.

Er...where did all the album cover images go? --FuriousFreddy 00:48, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

Oh...to history of hip hop music. Nevermind. --FuriousFreddy 00:52, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

hip-hop

whena rapper becomes famous, what role does he play in the hip-hop genre, in terms of generic values and representation?

American Rap

This article is perfect in it's description of American rap. But, we can clearly see that it's an American point of view. Rap has a big influence in France for exemple since the 80's, and this article don't mention french rap before the 90's. Of course rap is first an American music, but other countries like France, Germany, Algeria, etc... has adopted it and adapted it to their own culture. So his article is great, of course, I think we should translate it in French for the American rap, but you should talk more about foreign rap in this article. I can't do it myself because I'm french and I'm not good enough to write in English in an encyclopedia, but I hope somebody will complete it. Korr

Vandalism?

Quote: "making abundant use of techniques like assonance, alliteration,nigger loving and rhyme."

Is "nigger loving" supposed to be a technique of hip hop? 222.153.168.32 07:41, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

HAHAHA that is classic, i just read this.--Urthogie 04:12, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

why it should be moved

This should be moved to Hip-hop music and this page should be the redirect. Why? Because we've always referred to it as hip-hop.--Urthogie 16:10, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Is that a royal we? --Jamieli 16:03, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Aha, indeed, apparently hip-hop is mispelled in this entire article. According to spellcheck, and the hip-hop community itself(KRS-ONE's writing, Kool Moe Dee's Book for example) it is in fact spelled hip-hop with a hyphen. Also, check out dictionary.com: [2]

The only reason not to change it is laziness.--Urthogie 16:10, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Dictionary.com uses both, and plenty of others use it without the dash (see [3], Vibe, [4], [5], [6], [7], [8] and [9]. Plus, there's no logical reason to have a hyphen. Tuf-Kat 16:55, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

There are certainly sources both ways, but I think the best ones point towards using hip-hop: dictionary.com, AMG, and the books that Urthogie mentioned. In my mind, the reason for hyphenation is to make it clear that hip-hop is one term. It is easier to understand "hip-hop artist" than "hip hop artist," because it is clear in the first case that "hip" modifies "hop," and not "artist." I am assuming that "hip-hop" is an adjective-noun pairing of "hip" meaning cool and "hop" meaning dance. See hyphen for details. thejabberwock 05:24, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Ok, i guess youre right that its okay to do it without a hyphen, thing is: is it required to have no hyphen? cus at Rapping we've been doing it with hyphens. --Urthogie 17:27, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

I think it's best to standardize Wikipedia-wide, and I'd prefer no hyphen. I'd imagine it'd be impossible to get consensus on that, though. Tuf-Kat 17:36, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

I think a consensus could be reached, or at least I don't see why not. Might as well try. thejabberwock 05:24, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

It's fine with or without the hyphen. Hyphenation is really a non-issue. --FuriousFreddy 17:49, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Consistency is an issue though. thejabberwock 05:24, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Wait up though, should it be consistent throughout a page's entirety? Even if pages vary over hyphen use, why make them vary within themselves?--Urthogie 19:57, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Definitely should be consistent within a page. thejabberwock 05:24, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Although I've always seen it primarily hyphenated, I don't really have a preference either way. --FuriousFreddy 05:56, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

I think I've seen it primarily unhyphenated; however, since both spellings are fairly common, we aren't obligated to use either. And since there's no grammatical reason for a hyphen, we ought not use one. Tuf-Kat 06:04, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Is there a way to do a google search that checks for the hyphen? The rule is to use the more common one, after all.--Urthogie 09:46, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately, no. "Because some people spell hyphenated words with a hyphen and others with a space, Google searches for variations on any hyphenated terms." [10] But the Open Directory Project, while returning no results for "hip hop" NOT "hip-hop" or "hip-hop" NOT "hip hop", gives 1165 pages for hip hop and 913 for hip-hop. And almost all of the wikipedia pages are listed under "hip hop." I still think "hip-hop" is clearer, but it would be a lot of work to change all those pages.

Tuf-Kat, I know we're not obligated to use either one, but wouldn't it be better to be consistent? I think we should change all instances of "hip-hop" in articles like Rapping to "hip hop." thejabberwock 16:27, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree, it would be better to be consistent. Tuf-Kat 16:44, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Disagree. We're not consistently using American spelling over english, even though American spelling is more common on the internet.--Urthogie 16:50, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

That's true. The only difference I can see between American vs. British and hyphen vs. no hyphen is that there would be no wounded citizens of a certain country complaining if the spelling of "hip hop" was made uniform. I think it would only be possible to do this if there were no strong objectors. Urthogie, I agree with you that hip-hop looks better, but don't you think that it's even more important to be consistent throughout the encyclopedia? Just because there's no standard for American vs. British doesn't mean that there can't be a standard for hip hop vs. hip-hop. thejabberwock 22:52, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm fine with it being whatever as long as its not too disruptive. A guideline, rather than a policy, that is.--Urthogie 22:54, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

So your position is that preexisting uses of "hip-hop" that are consistent within an article should not be changed? thejabberwock 22:58, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

I'd say feel free to change anything, but if you move a page, please make sure to fix all redirects so they go directly. Yeah, just don't do anything that subtracts from functionality.--Urthogie 23:06, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Jabberwock, I told you I'd be ok with the change if no disruption was caused. But there are plenty of redlinks on this article still. Could you please create those redirects and make sure that stuff links to them?--Urthogie 13:28, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, I don't understand. Are you talking about redlinks within this article (Hip hop music), or about other articles that have links to Hip-hop music? So far all I've done is remove the hypens within articles - I haven't moved any pages. thejabberwock 21:11, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

The article had redlinks to History of hip-hop upon my previous post. I'm just sayin you should move the articles if you're gonna link to those.--Urthogie 08:32, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

styilize it

Theres so many needless newlines throughout. Someone should get rid of them. I eventually will but dont have time now.--Urthogie 15:25, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

first paragraph

first, DJ Kool Herc didn't invent hip hop; second, Hip Hop natural center is the streets so it is more of an underground genre than of a pop music subgenre... despite these days.... If a hip hop act doesn't have street credibility, no matter if it is fully air supported it won't last too much... C trillos

Multiple sources say that DJ Kool Herc invented it. Second off, it is a genre in both senses, whether you like the mainstream or not. Did you know DJ Hollywood did disco in high class clubs, and helped invent hip-hop? In summation, please don't make POV edits that confuse the first paragraph. If you want to make it better, let's discuss what it's missing, first.--Urthogie 17:19, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Multiple sources can be wrong. DJ Kool Herc was the most notorious of jamaican immigrants that began to make an impact first in the block parties in the bronx and then in a major scale. To say Herc invented Hip Hop is just as much as saying the Hip Hop was born in him, and that's NOT the situation, as the ancient roots of the music, the Bronx society itself helped as well, and Herc was not the only Jamaican DJ from the dub music that was present in the late 60's in New York... there were others as well... the same goes from breakdancing... you cannot identify who invented it... it was just special social and cultural circumstances.... To say it in some way, you can identify the inventor of the "Scratching" technique but you cannot identify the inventor of Hip Hop music, nor brakdancing nor graffitti art... it was just a development process... Still, you can identify some pioneers, and Herc was one of them.... C trillos.

Scratching was invented by guys like grandmaster caz and flash AFTER herc. Herc invented hip-hop by isolating the "break" from funk songs, plain and simple. Isolating the break is what characterizes hip-hop as music. Herc did not invent hip hop culture. He invented the music. I'm not downplaying the effect of society and music at the time he invented it, I'm just stating that he invented the music, which is backed up by numerous sources. If you have an example of a DJ who played hip-hop before him, you can prove me wrong. Until then, your edits are just a POV.--Urthogie 18:37, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

mmmhh, what I have a difficulty with is with the word "invented" ... an invention cames from your imagination and usually after having spent too much time trying to figure out something (a concept, a theory...)... perhaps the article could say something like : "thanks to the work of pioneers like Herc, who first isolated the break from funk songs, the hip hop grew up from the 70's..." or something like that... and furthermore, the hip hop was not yet complete in its forms during Herc time, it was after Herc that it began to take form with the introduction of rapping.... What do you think? C trillos#

I think the problem here is you're thinking of the hip hop culture, which herc didnt invent. the music, he did though:

1. hip-hop music was the isolation of the break. it grew from that isolation of the break. noone thought it up before him, from what I've read(prove otherwise if you can, and I'll change it).
2. herc didn't invent hip hop rapping. dj hollywood did, according to kurtis blow.

There were definitely many pioneers, but he did invent hip-hop music.--Urthogie 22:44, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Urthogie, first it is not like I have to prove something to you so you can accept a change in the article, this is not Your article, it is Our (wikipedians) article ... Still, I appreciate the time you are taking to discuss!... From Wikipedia, an Invention is first originated by an idea, which means you gotta conceived it in your mind first. When you improve something that's innovation. When you isolate the break from the funk it is discovering or even an adaptation or innovation... so at the light of those definitions Herc didn't invent Hip Hop music... as Dr. Dre didn't invent G-funk cuz he only adapted previous stylez... invention means from scratch... C trillos

Huh? Thomas edison adopted previous styles, such as earlier research. he used those "previous styles" in his invention, just as dre invented g funk and herc invented hip-hop. this isnt my article, that why were discussing. im being objective, so prove me wrong and ill see it!--Urthogie 22:33, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

what makes hip-hop music fresh (question from anon)

Please ask questions at the Reference Desk--Urthogie 00:23, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Article needs rollback

This version of this article is better and more informative than the current revsion. As a featured article, this needs to be exemplary of Wikipedia's best work? Are there any objections to rolling this article back to this revision (and then doing some tinkering to that version, such as the additions of more pictures, some formatting ,and fact-checking?) --FuriousFreddy 03:46, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Here's the diff], BTW, and I think I agree (especially the lead). Tuf-Kat 04:02, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. The history section in that version overlaps too much with History of hip hop music(we created a seperate article for a reason). I do agree however that other elements of that diff are better.--Urthogie 12:57, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

It's a summarization of the history section; it is nbot nearly as in depth. As such, I don't see a problem; anything particularly superfluous can be shortened. --FuriousFreddy 00:50, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Well it was shortened. I would support a rollback if you kept the current history section and rolled back the rest of the article.--Urthogie 09:46, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Pantera?

" the first bands to combine metal with rap vocal techniques are said to be Anthrax and Pantera " - This is from the article... since when did Pantera associate themselves with rap music? The only song that comes to mind that seems like it could be rapping is "Primal Concrete Sledge" and that's not even close. Pantera were in many ways all anti-trend: this stance intentionally stood in direct contrast to bands like Limp Bizkit and other rap-metal acts who are commonly dismissed as "trendy" by most Pantera fans. I also question why KoRn are consdidered rap-metal (apart from their collaborations with some rap artists and the cover of Ice Cube's "Wicked"), as their vocalist's "scatting" technique is really as close as it gets to actual rapping.

"We've survived every fucking trend. Heavy metal, grunge metal, funk metal, rap metal - and we're still here. We put everyone on notice that we don't fuck around. Our fans know we're true right down to the fucking core." - Phil Anselmo --> seems to cause problems with the claim that Pantera is remotely related to hip hop.

I think you're right about that. I've never seen anything about Pantera being rapcore. Feel free to remove that.--Urthogie 07:59, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Although KoRn isn't a rap metal band, the rhythm of their songs is strongly hip hop-influenced, as their bassist sometimes demonstrates.

Music samples

A comment on the samples. I've searched through the archives, but I can't find a discussion on which songs should be used as samples in this article. The samples should really be "encyclopedic", they should show the songs that marked hiphop history, show also the evolution of the genre, the different styles of hiphop, examples of the instruments used... I don't think these ones have these criteria. Maybe Grandmaster Flash & the Furious Five's "The Message", The first major hip hop message song, is good; but the Busta Rhymes and the Jay-Z samples are not notable enough in hip hop history. I would like a discussion on which tracks we should feature, so these samples really offers information and knowledge. CG 21:06, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

It should feature an old school track like the message, an afrocentric golden age track, and a modern song, at the very least. I agree most of them shouldn't be there.--Urthogie 21:24, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

I don't see anything wrong with the Jay-Z and Busta samples...both are very large figures in hip hop history, like it or not. Jay-Z certainly, considering the enormous influence he's - unfortunately - had on hip hop in the 21st century. Busta is more arguable; though he's very well-known and very unique I'm not sure he's a major part of hip hop history, considering he doesn't really sound like anyone else and spawned few if any imitators. Anyway, all of them seem to be worthy but if I were to remove one I would probably remove one of the Wu-Tang solo tracks: both of them is a bit unnecessary considering they're in virtually identical style. I would change the Mos Def sample to something from the Black Star album, to cover that whole Kweli/Mos Def/Slum Village/Roots afrocentric late-90s Starbucks-hop movement. And I don't think the Outkast track is particularly great choice (love the song, just not particularly representative); needs something that really shows their wild 21st century experimentation, like Slum Beautiful or GhettoMusick. --Jamieli 22:39, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

GhettoMusick? That track was completely a copy off of other trends in electronic and hip-hop music. Although, I must admit it sounds very good when youre high :). Anyways, I say we should go with the KISS principle and go with one song to represent for each era. --Urthogie 22:53, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Whether it's a "copy off other trends" (whatever that even means) is completely and utterly irrelevant. If anything, it makes it even more worthy of inclusion. --Jamieli 10:03, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

I don't see what it represents as far as the modern hip-hop era currently; Outkast was influential with southernplayalistik and aquemini, et al. but speakerboxx really wasn't significant musically(although it sold millions and millions).--Urthogie 12:39, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

GhettoMusick showcases a) electronic/"techno" influence on hip hop in the late 1990s-present, b) Outkast being very wacky, c) Outkast being a duo consisting of two very different people, d) their strong P-Funk influence, e) a group who both sold a colossal amount of records and were critically acclaimed, despite not really sounding like anything else on the mainstream hip hop market (or mainstream music market) at the time. Speakerboxxx/The Love Below and Stankonia have been two of the biggest hip hop albums of the 21st century, like it or not. Some stuff from Aquemini or before would be welcome also however, there's enough variation. --Jamieli 12:54, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Earlier Outkast work wins in all of those categories except sales. As far as someone to represent the great sales of hip-hop, I'd say that 50 cent would be a better sample.--Urthogie 13:10, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

50 Cent should get a sample too, but he doesn't sound anything like Outkast. If you can think of another Outkast track which is more representative (of them) then go ahead. I'm by no means attached to GhettoMusick, it was just a suggestion as it has a lot of stuff going on. --Jamieli 13:27, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

We shouldn't choose the samples based on their popularity (or at least it shouldn't be the main criteria) but on their contribution to hip hop history evolution (that's why I opposed to the Jay-Z and Busta samples). These samples should really bring additional information and play the role of examples (much like images) for a better understanding of the article. Maybe the better solution is to choose a track for each era and for each important genre. As for the number of samples, 15 is a max. We may finally go through a voting process to choose the samples in the article. CG 17:52, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Jay Z is a pretty big influence on a lot of new MC's though...--Urthogie 18:08, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

So why Jay-Z isn't mentioned in the article? CG 18:21, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

The article really isn't featured quality. Its simultaneously bloated and lacking info. That's why I nominated it for removal from FA.--Urthogie 18:46, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Wow this article is bloated

This article is very seriously tl;dr. A lot of it is restatement of prior content and most of it doesn't even have proper grammar. "[blank] arose" happens at least 4 times in what I've read and edited of the article, that's lazy writing. This really isn't featured article material, there needs to be more editing done. Also, chart numbers need to be cited. Reduce this article by about 40% and it'll be readable.--Mod 13:25, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, bloated. I wouldn't oppose nominating it to be removed temporarily from featured article status for cleanup.--Urthogie 13:27, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

It's nearly 6000 words. There needs to be a reduction to at least 3500 words. --Mod 13:33, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, and it overlaps with history of hip hop music way too much. I've nominated it for featured article removal(see template at top of page).--Urthogie 13:43, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Hip Hop isn't A. Rap or B. Around anymore

Hip Hop is dead. these "subgenre" are simply what replaced it. Calling a new "Gangsta Rap" musican Hip Hop is as bizarre as calling a contemporary composer classical.--chompy 12:53, 2 March 2006

Hip hop culture is focused almost completely on rap now, thats all.--Urthogie 13:47, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

No, hip-hop isn't dead. Calling hip-hop dead is like calling jazz music or classical music dead. Both these genres have been around for years, have suffered through all kinds of motions, have seen some fairly incredible stars, and have arrived in modern day sleek, stylish, and ever-changing. The only people who decry jazz or classical as dead are those ignorant of any developments that they might like. There's plenty of ridiculously boring jazz and classical music out there, there's plenty of pap that goes nowhere, from every era. However there's a lot of stuff that's well-done, emotional, and technically astounding. When everybody said disco died, house music promptly took its place. Hip-hop has seen a lot of changes the past 30 years and at every stage of it there have been the old generation naysayers and the disillusioned "ex-fans" who had vague and arbitrary reasons lined up for the death of their formerly favorite genre. It's still going strong and it's still making people money. You're wrong. --Mod 03:48, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Reasons for not promoting to good article

This article has some really promising elements. Some parts of the article are really well-written and very informative. However it is a long article that sometimes seems to stray from the essential elements of its subject or bog the reader down with names.

There are two things that I believe could really improve this article:

1. Remove the fashion paragraph in the "Social impact" section - it can be better covered by hip hop fashion and, if necessary, hip hop culture.
2. Trim the "Diversification" section possibly moving some content to a subpage and integrating the revised content with another section - right now it is very dense on names and difficult to read.

If you do want to have long lists of names in the article, consider shifting them to a sidebox like in the Columbine High School massacre article.

Please feel free to renominate this article when these issues are addressed.

Cedars 08:46, 29 March 2006 (UTC)