Talk:Avoirdupois

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...what does its name mean? "to have some peas"? "saw some peas"? "to have some weight" would make sense...has a D disappeared (or been added in the language)? Kwantus 18:44, 2004 Dec 4 (UTC)

Both Webster's Dictionary and the Oxford English Dictionary have it as a corrupt spelling of avoir de pois, "goods of weight" in Old French. —Caesura ^(t) 18:06, 16 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The English system of Avoirdupois is called the Imperial system, I will change this now. --The1exile 19:27, 31 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Changed the "French forms" list - removed modern English abbreviations, and made the French forms primary. At least it doesn't now appear to say that twenty hundredweights make a tonne, which is just plain wrong. Should the quarter really be in there?

singular for "quinteaux" is "quintal", not "quinteau".I replaced it.

I have no objection to "quintal" - that makes the plural "quintaux", though, surely? How about "quarter"? I can't see that as being French - modern cognate forms are "quart" and "quartier". Anyone know? Does it belong there at all? -- Ian Dalziel 23:17, 30 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

In france, we rather say "demi-livre" (half pound) rather than a "quart de kilo" so I guess "demi-livre" is better Koubiak 14:36, 4 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Pronunciation?

It'd be nice. :)—The preceding unsigned comment was added by RobertM525 (talk • contribs).

Peas again

"avoir du pois" does not mean "goods of weight." "Avoir" is the French infinitive of the verb "to have," "du" is a contracted form of "de le" which means "of the," and "pois" is "pea." It literally translates to "having a pea." My guess however, is that this in an incorrect form and the correct form would be "avoirdupoids." This translates exactly to "having weight" and is pronounced phonetically identically to "avoirdupois." In searching the web, I discovered many websites, particularly French language sites, that use the spelling "avoirdupoids." I am much too tired to fully research this, which is why I am not actually changing this article, but wanted to make a note that in either case the translation of the word in the article is incorrect, and that it is my belief that the correct form (and ergo title) should be "avoirdupoids." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Nybgrus (talk • contribs).

As the article says, the derivation is from OLD French - "peis", then "pois", which DOES mean "weight". -- Ian Dalziel 12:37, 1 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Avoir

I'de just want to notice that in french "Avoir" can mean To have but it can sometime mean income or possession which would be "l'avoir" or "un avoir" I guess avoirdupois would much better means "income by weight" but i guess "goods by weight" is pretty close, sometime it is just impossible to have a 100% accurate translation between 2 languages, if happen often when we try to translate expressions, I guess this is one case...

Cadors 18:31, 27 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Quarter is French?

In the French chart, is the word "quarter" accurate? GeorgeLouis 05:06, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I doubt it. See comments under "current revision". -- Ian Dalziel 10:29, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"quarter" is still being used as one of the "Original French forms." What gives here? Who is responsible for this? Is there a source for any of this? GeorgeLouis 20:49, 24 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Gone. No,there isn't a source for any of it as far as I know. -- Ian Dalziel 22:08, 24 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Pound unit of force?

Generally, there's a difference between mass and weight. Mass is the amount of matter an object has. Weight is a measure of the amount of force exerted on the object by gravity. A kilo is a kilo everywhere, Earth, Moon, or Jupiter, so a person with a mass of 80 kg will be 80 kg any of those places. But, a pound is equivalent to 4.45 Newtons (N) a measure of force. Hence, the 80 kg person would weigh 784 N on Earth or 176 lbs, but on the moon would weigh only 128 N or about 29 lbs. (Acceleration of gravity being about 9.8 m/s2 on Earth and 1.6 m/s2 on the Moon [ 80 kg * 9.8 m/s2 = 784 kg m/s2 = 784 N and: X lbs = 784 N * 1/4.45 N])

That being said, I think the old Imperial system does distinguish between a pound of mass and a pound of force, but I'm honestly not sure. 24.78.139.32 03:13, 24 October 2007 (UTC)Cheers, Peter-Jean[reply]

See poundal. Mmm 16:56, 24 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"Pound" is a unit of 'weight'. The quantity of weight existed before it was divided into 'force-of-weight' and 'inertia-of-weight' (aka 'mass'). In any case, it is generally understood that for any early use of 'weight', the proper method of comparison is by a beam balance, which relies on gM, as long as g is the same on both sides of a balance. This is usually a problem only when one gets to eight places of significant digit.

In any case, 'avoirdepoise' corresponds to what is called in German "Handelmass" (trade-weight), as opposed to the apothecaries and troy weights. Avoirdepoise corresponds to those units for which the bulk of trade is regulated in. --Wendy.krieger 08:23, 16 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Generally, there's a difference between mass and weight. Mass is the amount of matter an object has. Weight is a measure of the amount of force exerted on the object by gravity. A kilo is a kilo e-Wendy.krieger 08:23, 16 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Is a frog an amphibian? You can argue with a biologist about this all day long, but you won't change the minds of people who make violin bows. Frog may be the name of an animal, but it's also the name of a part of a bow. Similarly "weight" has one meaning in physics, quite another in law, government, and commerce. The avoirdupois system is a legal system of mass units in the USA, Burma, and Liberia. Physicists do not use this system. Zyxwv99 (talk) 18:58, 25 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Mass

The Pound Unit of Force discussion above does not address the issue. The Avoirdupois article should not have the clause, "(or, properly, mass)." It is a measurement system of weight and not a measurement system of mass. The only mention of mass should be one disclaiming its relation to the Avoirdupois system of measurement. --72.10.223.116 (talk) 04:19, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As described in the article, the pound is officially defined in terms of the kilogram, which is a measure of mass. So the maybe that clarification should be added earlier in the article. --Mmm (talk) 02:56, 30 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sack

The sack is here reported, as in various places such as Britannica, as being 26 stones (364 pounds). However, the wiktionary entry puts it at 13 stones (182 pounds), along with a quotation to A History of Agriculture and Prices in England, by James Edwin Thorold Rogers. This quotation is also in the articles on tod and stone. Is it a misquotation, or was the eminent economist mistaken? Does anybody have access to the book? Ratfox (talk) 15:53, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I believe there was more than one sack. Hundreds possibly. In the 19th century we had a similar problem with barrels. Many states had their own apple barrels, beer barrels, wine barrels, etc. The 364-pound sack is the wool-sack, equal to 26 wool-stones of 14 wool-pounds each. The wool-pound is also known as the avoirdupois wool-pound or avoirdupois pound. The avoirdupois weight system was originally for weighing wool. Wool was once to England what oil is to Saudi Arabia (see Woolsack). All those other stones and sacks were for measuring something else. For example, the butchers' stone was for weighing meat. Zyxwv99 (talk) 23:40, 30 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Troy weight

Please check the figure. The figure shows 450 grains for a Troy ounce. The Wikipedia article "Troy weight" shows 480 grains for a Troy ounce. The two articles are contradictory. Please correct whichever is in error.

(Added on the page by 168.103.235.25 - moved by Ian Dalziel (talk) 09:31, 16 August 2009 (UTC))[reply]

Checked. The figure shows 450 grains for a tower ounce, which is correct. --Ian Dalziel (talk) 10:31, 16 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Commonly used for metals?

"It is also commonly used for metals, such as gold and silver" in the introduction is misleading. Gold and silver are more commonly measured using Troy ounces not Avoirdupois ounces. I think this should be worded differently or removed completely. 216.57.96.1 (talk) 20:51, 6 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I have fixed this recent introduction of incorrect info. --04:09, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

References, please

This article has no inline references, but the two "citation needed" templates were on statements that were least in need of them. I have moved them to statements of historical fact that really should have references. Please provide your sources for those statements, thanks. Dlw20070716 (talk) 23:38, 20 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

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Proposed changes

I would like to make some changes to this article, but thought I'd mention them here first.

In the History of the term section the expression "imaginative orthography" seems dated. Middle English was written as it was spelled.

Original forms section. I would like to delete this section and replace it with a History section. Since this is a rather complicated subject, I will post more information here on the discussion page, including my sources, so that if anyone has questions or comments, we can discuss it before I make any changes to the article.

British adaptation section. I would like to rename it.

American customary system and Internationalization sections look OK. Zyxwv99 (talk) 14:34, 27 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

MORE INFO

United States National Bureau of Standards Weights and Measures (1962) Zyxwv99 (talk) 16:17, 27 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Skinner, F.G. (1952). "The English Yard and Pound Weight". Bulletin of the British Society for the History of Science. 1 (7): 184–6. doi:10.1017/S0950563600000646. Zyxwv99 (talk) 16:21, 27 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Guys: Origin: 1250–1300; Middle English avoir de pois literally, property of weight < Old French, equivalent to avoir (earlier aveir < Latin habēre to have) + de (< Latin dē ) + pois (earlier peis < Latin pēnsum )