Jump to content

Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2012 March 4

Add links
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
< Wikipedia:Deletion review‎ | Log

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Turqoise127 (talk | contribs) at 03:05, 8 March 2012 (→‎Laura Massey). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

< 2012 March 3
2012 March 5 >

4 March 2012

Laura Massey

Laura Massey (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

Previous DRV's 5 July 2010 * 29 Oct 2010 * 9 Jan 2012 ((added Spartaz Humbug! 13:47, 4 March 2012 (UTC)))[reply]

Laura Massey http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laura_Massey has had three deletion reviews all of which have resulted in her page being kept deleted. I have two other sources that were not brought up in the last deletion review for some reason that I would like you to consider.

I'm not exactly sure what is needed to get her page back, but she is a growing public figure at Microsoft and is now a Project Manager leading "Xbox Incubation". Google and Bing results for her have increased to 1,270,000 and 11,200,000 respectively. She has created her own game named NerdTrivia http://nerdtrivia.net/ which has thousands (7,074) players and has raised press coverage in the above links.

I would also like to add to this discussion per her former deletion reviews links which by themselves were too weak to overcome the AFD, but perhaps if reviewed together might make for a stronger case for her to meet the WP:N criteria.

She seems to have done some very notable things in public in and out of her work at Microsoft. Bawitdaba1337 (talk) 03:34, 4 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • Endorse again. Last DRV was just a month ago, and the supposed "new" evidence is just more of the same, blogs and irrelevant stuff like Google hits... while we're on that topic, while it's true Laura Massey without quotes gets plenty of hits, *with* quotes it has just 589 unique hits, and most of those are unrelated folks who just happen to share that fairly common name. On that last page, for example, I see a doctor, a cyclist, and a bookseller, among others. For comparison's sake, my name gets 501 unique results, and I'm not famous at all. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 04:41, 4 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse Needs RS. Spartaz Humbug! 13:47, 4 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm a bit bewildered by the above two replies. I have absolutely no idea how Starblind came to the conclusion that they were "blogs and irrelevant stuff". When I click the links, I find interviews with the article subject. Now, I'll be the first to admit that the interviews aren't exactly the pinnacle of journalistic brilliance—but they're also pretty far from blogs, aren't they? They're also far from irrelevant, because this nomination shows that Laura Massey is notable by linking to the sources that have actually noted her.

    I think that if we're going to refuse the opportunity to re-create this article then we need to show in what sense the sources linked are unreliable, and I respectfully challenge Starblind and Spartaz to do that. Unless that is shown, I feel that the appropriate response is to endorse the previous deletion as it was done in accordance with the consensus at that time, but permit re-creation on the basis of the new sources provided. Alternatively, if there's significant resistance to the idea of re-creation, we may wish to incubate. A flat refusal without a proper analysis of the sources strikes me as inappropriate in this instance.—S Marshall T/C 12:25, 5 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • Okay -
    • Wired is an interview about Nerdtrivia not about Laura Massey and since its an interview its a primary source anyway.
    • CNET is another interview and isn't about Laura Massey but a product she is working on.
    • worldofmeh ditto - and references the same interview. An appears to be a blog whose meeting RS is far from clear
    • So does Slowdown.vg and ditto bloginess.
    • And.. guess what.. leadershell is exactly the same
  • So what did we have? A grand total of zip about Laura Massey and no RS about her that we can base an RS on. Did you even look at the sources? Please explain how they meet GNG by being non-trivial reliable secondary sources about Laura Massey. Oh look, they aren't. Spartaz Humbug! 14:05, 5 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Spartaz, those are the sources we've already discussed before. The nominator here mentions two new ones, did you see? I also wonder if you aren't confused about primary sources. Interviews are only primary sources if they're self-published, and even if these were, it would be okay to use them, just not for evaluative or analytical claims.—S Marshall T/C 18:02, 5 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • FWIW though, being a primary source is of course not a block to using it for non-interpretive purposes, also it isn't necessarily a block to using it for notability purposes, the question posed by notability is about the world taking note, people seeking out interviews would (to my mind) indicate that the world is taking interest, the question would tend more to be about the significance of the source and the triviality of it, taking into account self publicity and that many sites will publish such as being pretty cheap and if it gets them access to other stuff... --62.254.139.60 (talk) 07:31, 6 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'll repeat the basic question which you have not addressed, under which definition of primary and secondary sources does who publishes the material affect the status as primary or secondary? In fact under which definition are the words of a person presented in diary form always primary, but the words of person presented as an interview is only primary if they publish that interview themself. Our definition of Secondary source states "Secondary sources involve generalization, analysis, synthesis, interpretation, or evaluation of the original information.", nothing about who does the publishing. Can you please explain how writing out the words of an individual does any of those things? Verbatim reproduction of a primary source does not generate a secondary source. --62.254.139.60 (talk) 22:39, 6 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • An interview isn't a verbatim reproduction, though, is it? Please read the first couple of paragraphs of each of the two interviews that the nominator cites. You'll find that although much of the interview is just a lightly-edited record of a conversation, it is bookended with a pen-portrait of the interviewee, usually written by the interviewing journalist. That pen-portrait comprises the generalisation, analysis, synthesis etc. to which you refer.—S Marshall T/C 22:54, 6 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm lost for words, if you've read that interview and think the "light editing" escalates it to a secondary source, then I'm seriously worried about the standards you apply, there is no synthesis, generatalisation etc in it. As to if an interview is a verbatim reproduction of what was said - for any given interview at which I wasn't present, I've no idea, were you present at that interview, can you validate what was/wasn't said and if that's a verbatim reproduction or not? Regardless you still don't answer the question, how does who publishes it effect that? The same light editing etc. could all have taken place by the journalist before the person them self published the results - how would that differ? You might also be interested in Wikipedia:NOR#cite_note-2 which lists types of primary sources, which of course contains interviews and mentions nothing about who publishes them. --62.254.139.60 (talk) 07:21, 7 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Source—Analytical content: "Laura Massey is big into games, to say the least. She’s a software engineer for Microsoft’s Xbox 360 video game console, part of a team working on top-secret stuff for the Redmond software company". Source—Analytical content: "Social media and an increasingly competitive gaming atmosphere have swirled together to make talking smack and one-upping your friends an effortless endeavor. Thanks to Xbox Software Development Engineer in Test Laura Massey, you now have a chance to prove who among your friends is the biggest nerd with Nerd Trivia, her new Twitter game.

"Laura (also known by her Gamertag “lollip0p” [editor's note: that's a zero in "pop," the WordPress font makes it indistinguishable from an O]), co-host of the weekly “Major Nelson Radio” podcast, has worked on some of the Xbox 360’s most defining features including the Xbox LIVE Party feature and the Kinect software. A “codist” by trade, many references have been made on the podcast about her love for puzzles and skills at creating different computer programs."

Does that make it clearer for you?—S Marshall T/C 12:07, 7 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • Endorse salt, ban. Jesus christ how many times to we have to discuss the Xbox chick? This is the same as ever, some bare scrapings of mentions in sources. Time for the fan club to just let this one go. Tarc (talk) 15:45, 6 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn to No Consensus meaning Keep. It is disheartening to see that things haven't changed much on the project. There seem to be compelling arguments on both sides, and even some previous AfD's seemed to have been split. Now, considering that the young lady does seem to enjoy a degree of notability among a certain group of individuals, and that there do exist (arguable) RS, I think we have here a poster child of no concensus. THIS is what the project is to me. We are not limited by a number of pages. It will be sooo much more interesting for future generations to read about Ms. Massey here than all project-included notability-satisfied politicians put together. Respectfully Turqoise127 21:08, 7 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    The prior AfDs had a consensus to delete, a finding upheld here at DRV. More sources can't "upgrade" a consensus to delete to a finding of no-consensus, that would be ugly bureaucratic wonkery at its worst. This isn't a project to write about people with "a degree of notability among a certain group of individuals". I'm sorry, but there's many subgenres of nerdom (or nerd-dom?) who think that what they <3 is the most Terribly Important Thing on Earth(tm), but hasn't quite set the world of reliable sources outside their little sphere afire. Tarc (talk) 23:10, 7 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    Huh? I must admit I did not understand much of your comment and the little silly signs or whatever, but I will say this; more sources can not only "upgrade" a consensus to delete to a finding of no-consensus, more sources can make an article downright notable in every aspect and undo any AfD or DRV. Having said that, I do not appreciate you telling me what this project is not, you can say what it is to you, but please do not decidedly jump to a conclusion that what I think the project is -is incorrect. Ridiculous. Turqoise127 03:05, 8 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Deletion_review/Log/2012_March_4&oldid=480774106"