Talk:Kallar (caste)
Meaning Of Word Kallar
See in Tamil for most of the words there are several meanings if u are a tamilian you may definitely know it, here we peoples are not writing our own theory this meaning of Kallar (Brave peoples) was agreed by Venkataswamy nattar, and our Honorable Chief minister Karunanidhi
Please read கள்ளர் சரித்திரம் - நாவலர் பண்டித ந மு வேங்கடசாமி நாட்டார் and Thenpandi Singam by M. Karunanidhi.
There are lot of books were wriiten by other caste peoples about Kallar which clearly state their Bravery.
Thenpandi singam By Kalaingar. Maviran Pandara Vanniyan By Kalaingar. Pudhukkottai varalaru by Asif Alli. Palhuvetaraiyar by Palanimanicham
Hense you asked reference for 2000 surnames in use among kallars I like to mention. 1. கள்ளர் பட்டப்பெயர்கள் - Pulamai Venkathachala Vanniyar 2. ^ Kallar Marabinar in Pattapeyargal Oru Varalarru parvai, Pattangattiyar (Pattukati) By Sivabatham Therse books also crearly explain the History of those surnames.
I also want to state some proof from Tamil literature for the meaning of Kallar.
Kallarin Kilavi Kariyon enba-Purananuru
Kallar Kooman Pulli – Purananuru
Kalvar Kalvan Perumbidugu Muthirayan – South Indian Inscriptions.
Kallaral puliyai veru Kaniya – Purananuru.
Where, Thirumal where Mal Means Black and Krishna means Black Please see tamil nadu official website for Krishnagiri.
List of Historians postulate Kallars are Chola and Pallava.
Dr.Barnal (டாக்டர் பர்னலும்) Srinivasa Iyengar (ம. சீனிவாசையங்கார்) Vengaswamy Rao (வெங்காசாமி ராவ்) வின்சன் ஏ. ஸ்மித் என்னும் சரித்திர அறிஞர் 'புராதன இந்திய சரித்திரம் என்னும் தமது நூலில் பல்லவர் வரலாறு கூறுமிடத்தே கள்ளர் வகுப்பினரையும் இயைந்து கூறுகின்றனர்.
PLease dont delete or damage articles which will spoil our valuable time.
if you want any more reference for any of the statements mentioned u r welcome to ask in Talk Page.
Thank You,
Rajnwiki (talk) 15:28, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
Wikipedia Branding millions of people belongs to particular caste as thieves. People are not such a stupid to carry the bad name which was branded by others for generation and generation without shame.
There were royals, if we are mentioning those royal connections; Wikipedia says “Wikipedia is not place for cast promotions”. Yes it is acceptable. But, What Wikipedia really doing is caste demotion, insulting, and racism.
Kallar means Black people. But you are saying Thieves as per most of the historians, who are those historians, can please list out them. All Biritish colonial , imperial , racist people. I can show that kallar were against British in many ways during the british barbarian rule, then how can one expect neutral study from their enemy. But I can list out how many historians who are not saying kallars as thieves.
Edgar Thurton, Who is imperial worker, had motive to defame kallars by all means. I can show example in his works he recorded all here say things. When come to Tanjore Kallar he cunningly avoiding mentioning any thing deeply about them, he says that “Tanjore kalalr having royal surname”. Then he avoids the subject of tanjore kallar, and shifting his focus to other areas to insult kallars as much as possible . Thurstan is such a evil guy, and Wikipedia enforcing colonial rules once again.
INSULTING MILLIONS OF PEOPLE WITHOUT ANY STRONG HISTORIACAL , LOGICAL EVIDENCE IS PURE RACISM ..77.110.82.173 (talk) 06:09, 25 December 2011 (UTC) WIKIPEDIA IS RUN BY MAFIA...TRYING INSULT PEOPLE ..NIT TAKING ANY ACTIONS..REFERING BASTART THURSTON BOOK AGAIN AGAIN ... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.110.82.173 (talk) 08:26, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
Picture
I have removed the picture as it is inaccurate; the uploader of the image has grouped people from different communities as belonging to the Kallar caste. In particular, Raja Raja Chola is not from this caste. Provide proof. Personal views and opinions are discouraged. ShivNarayanan (talk) 04:07, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- Well, leaving the factual inaccuracies aside, I doubt if the uploader owned the copyright for the picture. Modifying copyrighted images using Photoshop and uploading them online does not make the uploader, the copyright owner.-The EnforcerOffice of the secret service 20:15, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
Cholas and Pallavas
The author of this article had added his personal view that the Cholas are Kallars. The reasoning provided was that some people from this community also use the same names as Cholas. This is a weak argument. The author also goes on to relate the Pallavas with the Cholas via Athondai. This is also not true. Please provide some sources to prove these claims. For starters the argument that the Pallavas were descendents of Ilandiraiyan is flawed for the following reason; Various sources suggest that Ilandiraiyan was a direct descendant of Karikala Chola. But recall that Pallavas already existed during the rule of Karikala, most popular among them being Trinetra Pallava. So Athondai definitely did not spawn the Pallava dynasty. Feel free to discuss. Cheers ShivNarayanan (talk) 04:20, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
Neduman Anji
Require proof that Neduman Anji was a Kallar. ShivNarayanan (talk) 04:24, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
Lacking Sources
Please provide references that araiyars, Cholas, Pandyas, Pallavas are Kallars. Many individuals have been named after peronalities like Gandhi, Subhash Chandra Bose etc. Some person having the name Alexander does not prove that he belongs to the same clan as Alexander of Macedonia. Similarly, popular Indian actors like Shahrukh Khan, Salman Khan and many others have the same last name as Genghis Khan. But they do not belong to the same clan as the Mongol. "Khan" is just a common Islamic surname. ShivNarayanan (talk) 23:34, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
Provide correct sources for content
The user Tamilvendan (talk · contribs) has added irrelevant sources as none of the sources prove that the Cholas are actually Kallars.
1. In his version [1], under the section "During sangam", he has added the subsections "Thondaiman", "Adigaman" and "Malayaman". But even after repeated requests he has provided no sources to prove that the people from these communities belonged to the Kallar clan.
2. Again, in [2], under the subsection "Thondaiman", he has claimed that the Pallavas are an offshoot of the Cholas. He reasons that the word Pallava means "offshoot" and goes on to claim that Pallavas are an offshoot of Cholas. But where is the connection between Pallavas and Cholas and where is the citation that tells that "Pallavas are offshoot of Cholas"? This is a wrong claim as already explained by me the talk page(see my post "Cholas and Pallavas" above).
3. Again from his version in [3], under the subsections "Malayaman" and "Adigaman", he does not provide any source to prove that these people were Kallar. He argues that these people were Kallar as "Malayaman" and "Adigaman" are used as kallar surnames. This argument is flawed as shown by my explanation above (see "Lacking Sources" in talk page).
4. Once again in [4] under the section "Chola" and "Pallavas", he argues that these dynasties were Kallar because the members of the Kallar community use the same names. When a person is named after a famous personality it does not mean that the latter belongs to the former's community.
Finally to explain my concerns, I have reverted the edits of Tamilvendan (talk · contribs) as he primarily argues that the various kings and dynasties must be Kallar since some people from the Kallar community use the same names as the famous personalities. For example in [[5]] under section "Chola", he says (direct quote from his version) "Chera, chola and pandian are commonly called as Thevar to mean they are descendents of Lord Indra. But specially cholas were called by many Surnames all these surnames (Mel kondar, Chozangar, Thevar etc.) are now used by Kallars only shows that Cholas are from the Royal Kallar community". Basically he argues that since the Kallars now use the same names of the historical personalities, then it must mean that the historical personality belonged to the Kallar community. Sorry to say but this does not prove anything.
I can keep giving examples that show how his theory is flawed. For example, two popular Indian personalities, Feroze Gandhi and Mohandas Gandhi have the same surname but they are definitely not from the same community. Feroze Gandhi belonged to the Parsi community while Mohandas Gandhi belonged to the Modh community. Again, if some person at present has the name Feroze Gandhi, does that mean that he belongs to the Parsi community. Not necessarily.
ShivNarayanan (talk) 04:45, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
Tamilvendan
I have never talked about athondai I have clearly mentioned pallavas are desendends of thondaiman Illandarayan he was one of the king ruling during sangam (300 BCE) but Karikala chola ruled during 100 BCE. I have not mentioned Illandirayan is a son of karikala but Divided him from Chola for that I have provided all reference please see references
You are clearly confused with name and surname. Name we can give to our self but surnames are given to someone by someone else to state the place they ruled, their bravery etc. and their descendents will be using the same surname for ever.
And as a Reply to your talk regarding Surnames you yourself agreed Khan is just a common Islamic surname. Hindus are not using it Right.
Gandhi title may be used by many clans but (Mel kondar, Chozangar, Palhuvetaraiyar, malayaman, malavarayar are used by kallar only why others don’t have these surnames?.
And not with a single surname I am arguing, there are plenty of kallar surnames you can see in copper plate inscriptions.
You need not to guess Kallars started using Historical surnames if you insist provide reference for that.
I think I have answered for all your questions still you have any doubt please ask specifically what is your doubt but please don’t delete anything.
This is my kind request
Tamilvendan(talk) —Preceding undated comment added 09:15, 20 March 2009 (UTC).
- Baseless Theory and POV
I stand my ground that your surname theory is wrong. I'm not bothered about your personal opinion. The Chola and Pallava names and surnames are not exclusively used by Kallar caste. Provide a reference for every one of your claims especially that "Pallavas are Kallars", "Pallavas are offshoot of Cholas" and "Cholas are Kallars". Adding content about the various dynasties without providing any reference that the various dynasties belonged to the Kallar clan and claiming that you have added reference is very shady. First let us get past the main dispute, that is give reference that the groups belonged to Kallar. The surname theory is not a proof for anything. So give source that quotes "Pallavas are Kallars", "Cholas are Kallars" and "Pallavas are offshoot of Cholas" here before reverting. You need to provide proofs that the various groups are Kallar before adding content and other sources about the groups themselves which you have refused to do until now. I'm beginning to think that you really don't have any. ShivNarayanan (talk) 16:42, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
First see the references clearly before asking question
As a reference to state Pallva’s are Kallar, I have added references. See reference no 2 and 11.
As a reference to state Pallva’s are offshoot of chola’s, I have added a reference. See reference no 11.
As a reference to state about Thondaiman ilandarayan there are many reference in Tamil Literature see Purananuru.
As a reference to state chola’s are kallar, I have added many reference from south Indian inscription and also many books (Rajarajan Meikirthigal, Kallar Marabinarin Pattapeyargal oru Varalarru parvai).
But I need not to prove various Groups are kallar you are keep on asking unnecessary questions finally you will ask me to prove kallar exist in tamilnadu. Don’t ask silly questions like prove maravar, Agamudaiyar, Vellala, Vanniar and Iyers are in Tamilnadu. it is known to everyone.
But anyway hence you asked me to prove various groups are Kallar I just want to inform you that, that reference was also provided earlier itself. see Reference No – 2
Not even a single line was written on my personal opinion everything was taken from books, Wikipedia, and the sites I have mentioned.
I don’t know what else you want, I have also seen many things you have added in Mudaliar page without any reference. you have contributed a lot in Mudaliar Page why you have not deleted the theory of athondai and offshoot theories of chola? if you are not bias first delete it and ask me question.
Tamilvendan (talk) 21:33, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
Sources do not say what User:Tamilvendan claims
Reference 2 does not say that the Pallavas are Kallar. Source 11 is not even a reference. It is a short fictional story by novelist Venkatasamy Nattar. None of the inscriptions say that the chola and Pallava kings are Kallar and the books are fictional. Tamilvendan is adding wrong content and sources and trying to convince that the sources claim what he says when they actually do not. Reference 2 does not prove that that all groups are Kallar. It just a proof for Kallars using same names which does not prove that the dynasties were Kallar.ShivNarayanan (talk) 22:37, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
- Previously ShivNarayanan. Kallars and other Mukkulothars make a sizeable %age of Tamil population and have political influence TODAY due to DMK.
Hence they have been rewritting/vandalizing history by claiming every ruling clan as theirs. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 119.75.56.206 (talk) 18:31, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
- I guess you are belongs to Pallan Clan. Everywhere in the net you are typing the same sententance as above. Please dont think peoples just above pallar are ruling entire state. There are lot of politically, economically dominant social groups other than kallars. We are one of the oppressed group as same as yours. Dont assume yourselves as kallars are as powerful as Americans. We are not such a powerful people to rewrite history. In Tamilnadu most dominant caste group is Vellalar, not kallars77.64.12.77 (talk) 10:20, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
Hello Rajendranwiki
Ms.Charubala Thondaiman, She is an MP, Maharani of Pudhukkottai, but not a Reformer. All the personalities I have mentioned here are officially taken from RajaRajan Kalvi Panbattu kallagam, an official Organisation for Kallar’s . To portray these personalities their Statues are installed in the main office in Chennai. If you want to add her name please add notable personalities. I have not added it because it is very difficult for me to segregate Kallar from Mukkulathor, and we don’t have any Official List for that in our organization. If you have any you are welcome. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tamilvendan (talk • contribs) 05:13, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
Kallars of Pakistan
I am a Pakistani from Jehlum region of north punjab,Pakistan. There are kallars present all over Punjab and are muslims. They are the peasants of punjab(not an insult) and work as mostly farmers and tenants. They are the socially opressed people and are considered low-caste or low-class by the rulling classes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 119.154.8.153 (talk) 09:06, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
Kshatriya status
Do you know Pulithevan was the first one to fight against British long before the Veerapandi katta bomman?. Katta bomman known for looting near by palaiyams. Katta bomman actually wanted pay tax and surrender to british, but british insulted him, consequently katta bomman bodyguard (probably Maravan) killed a british soldier, that was what escalated war. Vellaiya thevan was the Army chief who fought on behalf of katta bomman and dead in the field. After losing war against british, Katta bommu ran for his life, and arrested while hiding in thondaiman (kallar king) land. Kattabomman glorified in movies because the significant presents of Wealthy Telugu people in Madras Presidency at that time. Don’t dream veerapandi was better than mukkulathor warrior like pulithevan, Maruthu pandiyan, velu nachiyar. Nayakkars gained power in TN by conspiracy, and how they established Vijaya nagara kingdom was also by consipiracy, and betrayal. They never could have won against Kallars in Direct War in Tamilnadu. Don’t call yourselves as warrior or Kshatriyas. You Jokers. LOL77.64.12.77 (talk) 12:03, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
- Kshatriyas/Brahmins castes are usually associated with Aryans. To be a Kshatriya, the ethnic group should have some indigenous Kshatriya origin (Suryavanshi, Chandravanshi, Agnivanshi or Nagavanshi) and also must have a martial / aristocratic / ruling history in which Brahmins did the coronation function. I have never heard of a brahmin coronation ceremony giving a Kallar Kshatriya status, let alone descend from Kshatriyas.
- Even the Reddys and Nayaks of Andhra are not kshatriyas. Nayaks, Naickers, Naiks, etc is a very common surname throughout India and hard to distinguish. Therefore calling them kshatriyas is misleading. The Reddys are a rich Vaishya caste who ruled small areas of Andra for a very brief period and have lost their ruling power long ago. Among the authentic Kshatriya castes of South India are the Marathas, the Bunts of Tulu Nadu and the Nairs of Kerala (Malayala Kshatriyas division). There may be more, but this is out of topic.--115.134.83.48 (talk) 16:54, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
Why don't you Study the book on Martial race of india.. you would find the Mukkulathor and Kallar References as Martial Race.. The fighters are termed as Khatriyas. Kallars, Maravans and Agammudayars were not given Martial race Status by the British because they never gave into them and never Paid the taxes to them and never were subjucted but instead termed as Outlaws.. butit is also found that they had the Code of conduct as the Samurais.. The martial race are Khatriyas... If you term the best fighters in the society as Khatriyas then Kallars are. they are also the Practioners of Varma Kallai.. Only the fighting Class of that age practiced it.. Which is turned into the chinese shaloin Kung fu.Bring out concrete proofs to support your term that Kallars are not a Martial race..If you belong to a martial race you will understand the different types of sucides(not out of fear) these warriors had like the samurais..If you think fighters are Khatriyas then truly the Mukkulathor are born To fight.. regarding the turning to british. I guess you better look into south indian History books more closely you will find freedom fighters Who were Kallars as Extremists in the Indian National Army of Subbash chandra bose.. Most of of the Regiments in Indian Army are old British regiments you will find Marathas, Sikh and even Gorkhas as part of their Army but only Madras Regiment which shows that Mukkulathor were not part of it and only a few turned to them so they could name it only Madras Regiment
- Old post, but in case this editor is referring to Tyagi's Martial races of undivided India, published by Gyan books, that book is simply not a credible resource. Large portions of it appear to be lifted from Wikipedia, and the publisher Gyan is, in general, not the most reputable of publishers. I would suggest anyone looking for Kallar details take a close work at the authors and publishers they cite. MatthewVanitas (talk) 19:51, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
Meaning of the word Kallar
Etymology of the word Kallar : Thief, One who Robs. Is this so hard to accept? Why is there nonsense such as "Brave People"? If you are too embarrassed to put the real meaning, then dont put it in. But please do not lie about the meaning of the word!--115.134.83.48 (talk) 17:02, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
I don't know what is the case in Tamilnadu but among Sri Lankan Tamils, Kallar means robber. How can they claim noble origins ?90.46.147.177 (talk) 11:39, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
In tamil Kalvan word gives you lot of meanings like king, black, enemy, brave, karkatakam, musuru, monkey etc. if you dont know Tamil go out. idiots like you not welcome77.64.37.68 (talk) 06:47, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
why not? Thondaman Kallar was a king and noble. But he was no robber. Please move on. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sasisekar (talk • contribs) 07:35, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
Lankan brother, go and rebuild your country and after that you can teach us kallar varalaru. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sasisekar (talk • contribs) 07:42, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
I do accept that Kallars means Robber because going to the myth of the rish's wife being raped by indiran.. When the rishi arrived meantime the lady had given birth to 3 boys..seeing the rishi one boy went up a tree (maravan). one boy hid behind the door so (Kallan) and the third stood there and stared at the rishi (agammudayan) sometimes it is also believed to be derived from the word Kala(black) and they were doing Dacoitory and were also Cattle theives during british era.. but Kallars are known for fearlessness and Maravans as Brave warriors and Agammudyan as one with a good heart or pride because it was believed a Kallan because of his fearlessness will change into a Maravan and then turn into a agammudayan by his deeds..Someone also commented on Raja Raja chola not being a Kallar.. I want to bring it to that person's notice that ancient kallars had elongated ear lobes till their shoulder which was made possible with wearing lead ear rings and long hair.. If you would notice Raja raja's ear lobes they are elongated to the shoulder in most of the pictures of his statues or paintings.. If you can produce an evidence of the caste Raja raja belonged then it would be great..Kallars had the code of conduct like the Samurais but they were not classified as Khatriya's by the british unlike the sikhs and others because they never gave into subjuction and instead the British termed them as outlaws because Kallars never paid the tax and they demanded why the Tax needs to be paid when the water came from the Sky and Crops from the land. their Favourite weapon was Valaikattai.. a boomerang and it was believed that the Kallan would select his weapon and it will stay with him for his lifetime..
The information that I have put is in Reference to Edgar Thornston's "tribes of south india" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 219.64.67.146 (talk) 21:52, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
Tidy
I have tried to tidy up the intro and certain sections of the article. But a lot of work still needs to be done. Sincere request to who ever is adding immediate tamil transliteration. Please exercise some restraint as this only makes it that much more convoluted. Imagine a punjabi or marathi or some non-tamil person trying to read the article. thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sasisekar (talk • contribs) 04:06, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
Chera,Pandiyan and Kalabaras
Kalabaras and Cheras are not Kallars there are no Proofs for that. Some pandian kings may be Kallars but Most of them were Maravars. cheras may be Agamudaiyar, but presently there are no proofs to state that, available proofs about Cheras are also less.
Pulli is not a kalabara King; He was a Kallar King Who Rulled Thiru vengadam.
Rajnwiki (talk) 15:45, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
Pandyas were Maravars. I did not see Maravar article when I added here. But Cheras were Kallars. The kings were called Villavar Kon. Please read Chera article and Villavar article here. I have not added anything to these pages. In Villavar page, the Villavars are also called as Eyinars (Ayyanars). They are a clan of kallar. Ayyanar chief is still worshipped as Kaval deivam. [6]
Kallar is only an umbrella name for many clans. Cheras are kallar.
The kallar clans were allies of their monarchs and wreak havoc in neighbouring kingdoms at the behest of their kings. But at times when their own kings lost the wars they would be stuck behind enemy lines and not all were able to dissolve into the common population. So they resorted to cattle lifting for sheer survival. They came to be generally called as kallar and the name stuck. Sasisekar 04:30, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
Hai Sasisekar, this is realy a wrong theory, anyway i just don't want to delete your work, please let me do some minor correction, i still dont say chera's are not kallar but there are no proofs to state cheras are kallar. so let us make changes in a meaningful way, i am happy if you add some good references. you can also talk in my talkpage directly. Rajnwiki (talk) 15:45, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
Vandalism
Your statement, Kallar are the descendants of the eyinar is never accepted, eyinar are not belongs to mukkulathor.
There are lots of Puranas about Kallars, like Kallakesari puranam, Puviindra puranam and many kallar Autors written books like Kallar sarithiram, Kallar kula varalaru, kallar patta peyargal oru varalarru parvai, and lot of official kallar organizations like Kallar peravai, rajarajan kalvi panbattu kalagam, nowhere kallars are stated as Eigners or villavars.
Dr. Pitchappan have found the ancient DNA marker M130 in the blood of Piramalai Kallar that links them to the very first modern humans who migrated out of Africa and travelling through the southern coastline of Asia that eventually reached Australia. It was also proved the DNA of Mukkulathors (Kallars, Maravar and Agamudaiyars) were related and it is Distinct from other Caste Peoples.
Many caste peoples clime that kallars are desendents of their caste but there is no proof for their claims, it is not correct to claim kallars a huge population(60 lakhs) are desendents of less populated Villavar. And it is not entertained to add some other caste in kallar caste page.
And also historians and kallar authors newer postulate kallars are kalabras, kalabras are great rulers were rulling tamilnadu for more than 200 years, but they are not kallars many historians postulate kalabras are Kanadigas and not tamils, so please don’t link kallars with Kalabras. Rajnwiki (talk) 04:07, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
And you know this because? Kalabhras are tamil only. At one time the Pallavar were called persian. Kalabhras were not recognised because they embraced Jainism. But they are tamil. Historians support this theory: [7], [8]. Villavar are kallar. They did not disappear into the oblivion. thank you. Sasisekar (talk) 03:10, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
Vandalism
Your statement, Kallar are the descendants of the eyinar is never accepted, eyinar are not belongs to mukkulathor.
There are lots of Puranas about Kallars, like Kallakesari puranam, Puviindra puranam and many kallar Autors written books like Kallar sarithiram, Kallar kula varalaru, kallar patta peyargal oru varalarru parvai, and lot of official kallar organizations like Kallar peravai, rajarajan kalvi panbattu kalagam, nowhere kallars are stated as Eigners or villavars.
And it is not entertained to add some other caste in kallar caste page it is completely vandalism.
Rajnwiki (talk) 05:22, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
Your theories are awful. Summa linking, branchingnu. I have given a direct link for Cheras. Kalabhras are tamil. Moonu peru nandi mathiri, they are seated in power. How can some foreign guy raze them all of a sudden? Were the 3 armies so impotent? In empires all over the world, religion is the centre of power. The vatican always played a strong role in the european kingdoms. But Kalabhras did not favour any one religion so all these people associated with temples lost power. If they were not tamil they would not have encouraged marvelous works like manimekalai, silapadikaram etc.,First stop making this page ugly. Sasisekar (talk) 05:28, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
Your statement, Kallar are the descendants of the eyinar is never accepted, eyinar are not belongs to mukkulathor.
There are lots of Puranas about Kallars, like Kallakesari puranam, Puviindra puranam and many kallar Autors written books like Kallar sarithiram, Kallar kula varalaru, kallar patta peyargal oru varalarru parvai, and lot of official kallar organizations like Kallar peravai, rajarajan kalvi panbattu kalagam, nowhere kallars are stated as Eigners or villavars.
Please answer for the above questions, I don’t know why you unnecessarily stating about villavar in Kallar page if you belong to that community write about Kallar in villavar page don’t spoil our page.
And it is not entertained to add some other caste in kallar caste page it is completely vandalism.
Please read history books don’t you know about vijayanagara dynasty are they not the foreign guy? Muslims are not the foreign guy? Please don’t assume yourself something. Rajnwiki (talk) 13:47, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
I HAVE A DOUBT CAN ANY ONE CLEAR IT??
hello friends,,,i'm new to history..In this page i've seen a term called paluvettaraiyer..near ariyalur there are two places called keela paluvur and mela paluvur and thalampettai paluvur belongs to paluvettaraiyers(they built some temples also)..in those all 3 places only vanniyars were living..i'm sure..and there is a place called GANGAI KONDA CHOLAPURAM which is the capital of cholas from RAJENDRA CHOLA 1 to 1279 the end of chola dynasty available near at JAYAMKONDA CHOLA PURAM(ARIYALUR district)...And also some other places like CHOLA MADHEVI,VEERA CHOLA PURAM,CHOLAN KURICHI,KADARAM KONDAN(constructed by rajendra for the victory over kadaram),AYUTHA KALAM(where chola weapons avail),UL KOTTAI(CHOLA PALACE)..ETC..IN all the above mentioned places vanniyers only living..How this could be possible..how can vanniyars replace kallars(PLUVETTARAIYERS and CHOLAS)from the above mentioned places..was they are migrated from other places or invaded from somewhere?..and i heared that chola dynasty comes to an end by pandiyas..so pandiyas are the invaders.. then from where vanniyars came???.....and i hearded that pandiyas occuipies the land upto tanjore during and before starting the war against cholas..it may be true because in the north region of tanjore the vanniyers are living(like thirumala padi and etc)...i'm not saying this details by reading i'm living in this area..so pls try to tell me a logical reason for my question...and thanks in advance for clearing my doubt... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.97.159.164 (talk) 11:25, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
vanakam please explain who is th KULA THEIVAM for Thevar,or Kallar,Maravar,Agamudaiyar... and also pls tel me,is there any Kallar or Thevar stay in Sithambaram? thankyou.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.120.231.174 (talk) 06:19, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
Reply for your Doubt
As a kind reply to your question i am also living in Tanjure 50% of tanjure populates are Kallar, I think you know very well tanjure is the capital of Cholas, you can confirm this with any surveys available. That’s why Mps and MLA candidates were kalars, Present Mp Palanimanicham is also kallar. The Nearby surroundings like trichy and Puddhukkottai is also highly populated by Kallars only, as you aware puddukkottai king Thondaiman is also kallar. Trichy MP Kumar and was opposed By Sarubala Thondaiman both are Kallars. Kila Paluvur and Mela paluvur is also Highly Populated by Kallars. Sidambaram also has significant kallar population Mukkulathor Sangam Leader Sreedhar Vandaiyar is from Sidambaram only.
Kula(Primary) Theivam (God) for Kallar Is Sivan, some (10%) has Vishnu. 124.30.171.121 (talk) 17:30, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
Dear friend, Kallars in Tanjore regions are natives to this region. Chola’s army soldiers are became a Kallars as per Periyar Ramasaamy, anyway, Presence of Kallars in these regions can be proved by Rajaraja cholan inscription in Tanjore Big temple. He donated “tax free” lands to kallars those who shed their blood to protect motherland, the inscription says “thaaiman kaakka uthiram kottiya kallar kula maravarkalukku uthirapatru entra vari neekkiya nilam koduththu” . And some of the pattams of kallar are going back to karikalan cholan period like Uranthai kondar (uraiyoor, capital of karikala cholan), uranthai aandar etc.,
As for as vanniyars are considered, in north Tanjore including Mayavaram, Sirkali they are not native to these areas. They are usually tracing their origin to Mathuranthakam, cuddalore area, few salem, villupuram area. They may be migrated during Nayaks period to work in farmland. Eventhough Vanniyars are warrior clan, they are peaceful farmers too. They are not rebellious in nature. That may be reason of vanniyar peasants in nayakkar landlords areas. Present day large population of vanniyars at border area of Tanjore are cultivating Temple Lands and nayakkar lands. You can find Nayakkar landlords in north Tanjore Area (I mean Mayavaram area). But Kallar, Agamudaiyar are living their from medieval Chola period onwards.77.64.12.77 (talk) 10:11, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
Deleting Relevant Data
I don’t understand why peoples are deleting some information’s, which is very relevant for the topic and was agreed by most of the Historians, and even by the chief minister of tamilnadu (Karunanidhi).
Even most of the tamilians knows cholas are kallars. And in most of the cinemas and songs it is been portrayed. Deleting the article and relevant information is truly a type of Vandalism. Please don’t do so in future. Rajnwiki (talk) 15:24, 13 February 2011 (UTC) KALLAR POPULATION:
Kallar population mentioned there is not including all kallars. This kallar population is those who are in MBC list. Thanjai Kallars are in BC List. and kallars other districts those are not included in goverment specified list are also in BC list. please remove that 17 lac add population77.64.8.194 (talk) 08:29, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
Reliable sources for Kallar history
I don't have time to dig into it yet, but this book seems to have some great details about legendary Kallar history and the royal family: http://books.google.com/books?id=d8k98lBxwM4C&pg=PA16&dq=pudukottai+royal+kallar&hl=en#v=onepage&q&f=false MatthewVanitas (talk) 21:01, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
- Another book, which discusses Kallar royal ties, and has a great (post-colonial) description of how the British labeled the Kallar as thieves due to British non-recognition of other forms of rule. Should be a good contrast to British sources, from a more modern perspective: http://books.google.com/books?id=cegr6zH9PFEC The hollow crown: ethnohistory of an Indian kingdom. Nicholas B. Dirks. Worth reading.
- And another, particuarly on Kallar regional rule: http://books.google.com/books?id=OpxeaYQbGDMC&pg=PA137&dq=Pudukottai+kallar&hl=en&ei=i_J4TpSWLrSjsQKtzMHIDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CEsQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q&f=false Vijayanagara. By Burton Stein. Also has some great data on kaval, the taxes levied by Kallars on travelers in exchange for protection; it appears this was one of the behaviours the British deemed criminal, but some later scholars have described as a totally legitimate service provided by Kallar society. Lots of interesting takes here. MatthewVanitas (talk) 20:09, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
Major cleanup September 2011
I've undertaken a cleanup of the article. At the moment focusing largely on format issues, and finally getting a decent cite for the evidently controversial (but well-attested) "thief" etymology. The basic cleanup is done, and there are a few points that come next:
- For the Tamil-language sources, are some of them available online? Can we get links if so? And in either case, can we add a transliteration or translation of the title, the author's name in Latin script, and the publisher and date? It's great to have the title Tamil spelling (for searchability, particularly), but it'd be helpful to have the other basic info in Latin script.
- The three sub-sections of the "Sangam" section all appear to be OR, basically saying "the Kallar use X name, so this king must have been Kallar." Are there any RSs supporting this, or should we just delete the section?
- A lot of caste articles have an over-emphasis on British Colonial history, partially because we have a lot of references for that period. This article swings the other direction, being mostly medieval history, so I'll take a stab at adding at least a small section of colonial history, and if possible post-1947 history.
Overall, this article is heading positive directions, and it'd be great to get some comments from other editors. MatthewVanitas (talk) 14:17, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
- Wikipedia Branding millions of people belongs to particular caste as thieves. People are not such a stupid to carry the bad name which was branded by others for generation and generation without shame.
- There were royals, if we are mentioning those royal connections; Wikipedia says “Wikipedia is not place for cast promotions”. Yes it is acceptable. But, What Wikipedia really doing is caste demotion, insulting, and racism.
- Kallar means Black people. But you are saying Thieves as per most of the historians, who are those historians, can please list out them. All Biritish colonial , imperial , racist people. I can show that kallar were against British in many ways during the british barbarian rule, then how can one expect neutral study from their enemy. But I can list out how many historians who are not saying kallars as thieves.
- Edgar Thurton, Who is imperial worker, had motive to defame kallars by all means. I can show example in his works he recorded all here say things. When come to Tanjore Kallar he cunningly avoiding mentioning any thing deeply about them, he says that “Tanjore kalalr having royal surname”. Then he avoids the subject of tanjore kallar, and shifting his focus to other areas to insult kallars as much as possible . Thurstan is such a evil guy, and Wikipedia enforcing colonial rules once again.
- MENTIONING MILLIONS OF PEOPLE WITHOUT ANY STRONG HISTORIACAL , LOGICAL EVIDENCE IS PURE RACISM ..77.110.82.173 (talk) 06:08, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
Kallar means thief. They were thieves till the 19th century when christian missionaries civilized them
Kallar means thief. Also they were considered criminal tribes.
http://books.google.com/books?id=s4MUAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA99&dq=kallar+thieves&hl=en&sa=X&ei=aGIbT-juHoSZiQLIiZWbCA&ved=0CGEQ6AEwCDgK#v=onepage&q=kallar%20thieves&f=false — — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sharma007007 (talk • contribs) 01:17, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
http://books.google.com/books?id=rxQbAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA82&dq=kallan+thief&hl=en&sa=X&ei=92MbT_ylCY_XiQK-zuW7CA&ved=0CEIQ6AEwAzgK#v=onepage&q=kallan%20thief&f=false — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sharma007007 (talk • contribs) 01:19, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
http://books.google.com/books?id=H4q0DHGMcjEC&pg=PA105&dq=kallar+thief+vijaya+ramaswamy&hl=en&sa=X&ei=lfJcT8D9OeGViQLh8KnRCw&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sharma007007 (talk • contribs) 18:45, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
- Sharma, two things: can you format the above links by plugging them into reftags.appspot.com? That will turn them into formatted footnotes, and then you can remove the <ref> and </ref> markings around them to show them as basic cites. That way we can tell the author, title, and date of each book, rather than just having a bunch of links. Secondly, please don't forget to sign your posts by typing ~~~~ or hitting the "sign" button at the end. MatthewVanitas (talk) 17:57, 12 March 2012 (UTC)