Talk:2nd Infantry Regiment (United States)

Merge - 2nd United States Infantry Regiment (Civil War)

I'm not sure why, but there is a separate article, 2nd United States Infantry Regiment (Civil War), specifically about the 2d's ACW service. I would go ahead and redirect it, but there is some detail there that's not in this article. So...does anyone see a need for keeping an article fork specifically about one war? Rklear (talk) 02:41, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

I am the co-author, author, maintainer and what have you of the 2nd Infantry Regiment (United States) site and I have no idea why this second site was started just for the Civil War. Because there is basically no information on the site, possibly the person that posted it was hoping someone would provide some. There is but I am not going to post it. If they are wanting to learn more about the 2nd Infantry during the Civil War this is surely not the way! --GUNNERGRZ (talk) 18:34, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

I endorse this merge for the reasons given above. BusterD (talk) 13:25, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

According to the US Army Center of MNilitary History, you are wrong about the Merge. In the first place, there haqve been a few Second Infantry Regiments in our history, most of which dissapeared at the end of the conflict they were raised for. In the case of the two articles we have here, they ARE connected, but nbot the way you think. That said, I will merge them acccording to the CMH Records. - SSG Cornelius Seon (US Army, Retired) (talk)

If you actually look at the Center of Military History Lineage for the 2nd U S Infantry you will see that there has been one since it was constituted in 1815, with a Lineage date of 12 April 1808. The "old" Second was constituted in 1791 and lasted until the 1815 date. We are talking about the 2nd U S Infantry, not all the other state, volunteer and what have you units, what is in the regiment’s history posted on the site is correct.--GUNNERGRZ (talk) 02:17, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

I boldly redirect the page here, as there was so little content there that it wasn't really worth the effort, and most of the content was already here anyway. D O N D E groovily Talk to me

Edits to MOH recipient Daniel Burke

GUNNERGRZ, you have reverted or undone three edits of mine within 24 hours, violating Wikipedia's edit warring guidelines. I have responded to your message on my talk page asking you to provide a source for your edit, which you have not. I have left the information you added substantially intact, only asking that you add a source. I invited you on your talk page to discuss these edits on this article's talk page, which you have ignored. Instead, you sent me the following email which could be construed as threatening, quoted below:

From: GUNNERGRZ [1]

Sent: Monday, September 27, 2010 5:25 PM
To: Btphelps
Subject: Wikipedia e-mail

Leave the posting on Daniel Burke alone. it is apparent to me that you do not have the correct information on him other then what I put on the 2D INF REGT ASSN site up to and including the CHM posting page. If you went to the Center of Military History site and looked up Burke in the CMH section you would see exactly what was on his citation. No where is what I put in the addendum in the citation, that is why it is an addendum. HE was commissioned on 18 July 1862 and did not accept until 8 November 1862. He did the same thing when he was promoted to Captain. Adding your twist to it does absolutely nothing to improve it. DON'T CHANCE IT AGAIN!

If you are so hell bent on embellishing it why haven't you done the same to Bondsteel's? DON'T

The information I added which you removed was factual and supported by reliable sources. Comments on talk pages and even email should be courteous and always assume good faith, which I am striving to do here. I did not remove your edit about the time during which Daniel Burke accepted the commission (a seemingly minor factual point), but added a {{fact}} template.

Editors are encouraged to work out differences on the article's talk page. If you have a source for the information you would like to add, please start the discussion here. Since I have been editing on Wikipedia for a few years, I am very willing to work with you to find a resolution. However, you have both ignored my requests to discuss these changes but threatened me via email. I am referring this matter to arbitration for administrative action. -- btphelps ^{(talk) (contribs)} 04:46, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

Please continue the discussion here, not via email, where all editors can contribute to the conversation. Thanks.-- btphelps ^{(talk) (contribs)} 16:01, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

Btphelps, I could say the same as you concerning making changes but I will leave that go. I don't think there was any threat involved, I asked that you not make the changes. My version did not require a citation, yours did but not to worry I added the source to the Reference section. My version did not require any sources, it was there under References. Also Burke was commissioned a 2d Lt on 18 July 1862 not recommended for promotion. If he was just recommended his commission date would have been 8 November 1862 when he accepted. Also don't you think it is a bit redundant to have a link to the MOH site in both Notes, which you added and References, which I put in a while ago. One more thing, you need to review your edit one more time, it needs correcting and I am not going to do it and be accused of changing "your edit". GUNNERGRZ (talk) 04:56, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

Per citations, it is not sufficient to add sources to the Reference section alone. "The policy on sourcing is Verifiability, which requires inline citations for any material challenged or likely to be challenged, and for all quotations. The policy is strictly applied to all material in the mainspace—articles, lists, captions, and sections of articles—without exception; in the event of a contradiction between this page and the policy, the policy takes priority, and this page should be updated to reflect it." You can if you choose use footnotes that utilize parenthetical referencing that refer to the references you've already added. -- btphelps ^{(talk) (contribs)} 18:27, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

Concerning the citation needed for the changes you made to Daniel Burke, you're the one that did it, you fix it. I added the source in reference, I sure hope you bothered to open it and read it. It verifies what I said earlier about his commission date and not his recommended promotion. Why exactly are you so opposed to writing it the correct way?

The citation needed for the location verification of the Ramrod was a discussion with the Battalion Commander. Originally General Carter Ham told me where it was at when we talked in June, 2007. I have a photo of that! Bit tough to place a citation other then what I stated. You got a better idea? I suppose I could just delete that part but then I suppose you would want some other citation which would still be the same. GUNNERGRZ (talk) 20:23, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

capitalization, etc.

2INFMAN,

I'm glad to join you and others as an editor of the article. Its one of the best I've seen on a US regiment.

-Capitalization of regiment, battalion, etc.: While the usage you suggest is certainly correct in other contexts, it is not the rule in wikipedia. See WP:MILTERMS for why lower case would be the way in wikipedia.

-Capitalization of distinctive unit insignia and coat of arms. These are not proper nouns and are, thus, not capitalized.

-COA and DUI section: I was actually attempting to more closely follow the way TIOH has it. The way the article was previously had the COA "Background" section at a different outline level, for example. In any case, I've got no sensitivities if anyone wants to shift it around.

-Indian outrages: The word "outrage" seemed it could be what wikipedia calls a "contentious label". See WP:LABEL. I attempted to remove the contentious label but still preserve the meaning of the sentence. There are probably better ways to do so than I did, so certainly have at it.

-Regiment (-): Please do not infer from my edit that your usage was incorrect. You and I both know what "Regiment (-)" means and that it is a common term in military usage. but to many wikipedia readers the meaning may not be clear. So, I tried to reword it in a way that will be clear to all wikipedia readers. Please don't be shy about trying to improve on my attempt.

-Motorized: As I look at it further, "Combined Arms Battalion-Heavy" should also be lower case along with "motorized" for the same reason that "regiment" and "battalion" are lower case. Again, other style guides might capitalize these, but not Wikipedia's. Of course, if the usage were "the 33rd Motorized Combined Arms Battalion-Heavy" initial capitals would be used.

I welcome the chance to further discuss any of these with you. This is really a great article and you and others have done some spectacular work.

Ocalafla (talk) 20:53, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

Ocalafla,

So what you are saying as far as capitalizations go Wikipedia has set a new standard for proper grammar and that we as authors on the site have to forget correct grammar because Wikipedia said so. That is baloney and you and Wikipedia should know it. Every reference to “the Regiment” is to the 2nd Infantry Regiment therefore regiment requires a capital R. One more thing, it is not a “style guide” it is a Rule of Grammar. As far as Distinctive Unit Insignia goes if it is not a proper noun what is it? It is the name of something, what else would you call it? EG, the 2nd Infantry Regiment what? If you used DUI would you put it in small letters? I guess you and Wikipedia need to tell the Institute of Heraldry that they are wrong on all counts.

If not outrages then what, attacks on the civilian population living on the frontier. Outrages is a shorter way of saying it. Leaving at as just Indians has a very racial connotation to it. It clumps an entire people into, a bad element that needs to be dealt with. You sir deleted the word I used, come up with a better one!

Regiment (-) may not be understood by all but it is by most. I put it the way it was presented to me because the missing unit was not recorded. Removing the (-) indicates that the entire regiment was present, which it was not so therefore not correct.

I’ll give you the “motorized” but not the CAB-H. It is a letter version of a “proper” name. You certainly would put moh for Medal of Honor would you?

Thank you for the compliment, I try very hard to put the most accurate information on the 2nd Infantry and what occurred at various periods in the Regiments history, especially the 1815 consolidations. I have spent years research all aspects and see that most still don’t quite “get” what it intailed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2INFMAN (talk • contribs) 23:02, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

Actually, Wikipedia's policy on capitalization is not by any means unique to Wikipedia. It takes the same approach as the Chicago Manual of Style and the Associated Press, and many others, for example.

While the Chicago Manual of Style, AP, and other prominent style guides agree with Wikipedia on capitalization, many institutional style guides (particularly universities) would dictate that in internal use, for example, both:"the University of East Idaho is a century old" and "the University is a century old." That, I think, is what TIOH is doing. So, it is perfectly fine for TIOH to do so on its site, but since Wikipedia's style is different, we follow that policy on Wikipedia.Regardless, it is the guide for Wikipedia and whatever we think of it we should follow it. If we don't want to follow it we are always free to play elsewhere.

As for capitalizing the acronym "DUI" "CAB-H", and "MOH" the Wikipedia style guide addresses this clearly: "The capitalization of the original term is independent of it being acronymized, being lowercase for a term such as frequently asked questions (FAQ) but uppercase for a proper name such as the United Nations (UN)."

Regarding "Regiment(-)" I agree with you completely that deleting the (-) changes the meaning. That's why the change I made was from "regiment(-)" to "parts of the regiment." I certainly have no objection if you've got something clearer.

Regarding "outrages", I think the suggestion you made on "attacks" is a good one and I fully support the change if you wish to make it.

Ocalafla (talk) 00:10, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Ocalafla,

Whatever on the capitalization.

Parts of the regiment is incorrect.

I certainly hope that you are doing the same correcting on all the other regiment sites an2INFMAN (talk) 02:08, 23 July 2012 (UTC)d not selectively just "repairing" this one.

2INFMAN, I'm open to any rewording of "parts of the regiment" that you feel is more accurate than what I have and that is likely to be understood by readers not familiar with common military terminology. Ocalafla (talk) 14:20, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Consolidation question

The article says "the War Department ruled that by the consolidations of 1815 the distinguished service and battle honors of the regiment prior to 1815 are to be credited to the 2nd Infantry Regiment". Does anyone know if this is intended to mean that the new 2nd Infantry inherited the honors of the regiments that were consolidated to form the new 2nd Infantry? Or, is it intended to mean that the new 2nd Infantry inherited the honors of the old 2nd Infantry? If the latter, does anyone have a source for this? Thanks! Ocalafla (talk) 19:21, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

It means both! It is quite apparent by the 2nd Infantry Regiments campaign streamers and the 2nd Infantry’s early history. Only 3 infantry regiments (1st, 2nd and 3rd) and 1 artillery unit (5th) earned the Miami Indian streamer and only the 2nd Infantry was at Fort Bowyer (Alabama 1814). During the War of 1812 none of the regiments that were consolidated to become the new 2nd Infantry were in the south and the 2nd Infantry wasn’t in the north.

Read pages 414-415 at this link http://www.history.army.mil/books/R&H/R&H-2IN.htm 2INFMAN (talk) 20:26, 23 July 2012 (UTC)