Talk:Didache

The first paragraph seems messed up?

From [1]:

"There were, however, in the East, from the early days up to the end of the fifth century, certain writings, closely related to each other, and which were in reality brief canon law treatises on ecclesiastical administration the duties of the clergy and the faithful, and especially on the liturgy. We refer to works attributed to the Apostles, very popular in the Oriental Churches, though devoid of official authority, and which may be called pseudo-epigraphic, rather than apocryphal. The principal writings of this kind are the "Teaching of the Twelve Apostles" or "Didache", the "Didascalia", based on the "Didache"; the "Apostolic Constitutions", an expansion of the two preceding works; then the "Apostolic Church Ordinance", the "Definitio canonica SS. Apostolorum", the "Testament of the Lord" and the "Octateuch of Clement"; lastly the "Apostolic Canons"."

..."though devoid of official authority, and which may be called pseudo-epigraphic, rather than apocryphal" ...such wholly artificial categories, called "POV" by those who indulge in categories, do not reflect the original writers' inspiration, nor their intent; they do not reflect the original audience and the perceived needs such writings fulfilled; they simply reflect decisions made in the Papal Curia long afterwards, which are themselves momentary bits of the history of thought, irreducibly opaque and impossible to analyze until one has taken into consideration local politics and intellectual climate. --Wetman 15:34, 29 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Logic query

The term apostle is applied by Paul not only to the Twelve, but also to himself, to Barnabas, to his kinsmen Andronicus and Junia, who had been converted before him, and to a class of preachers of the first rank. But apostles must have "seen the Lord" and have received a special call. There is no instance in the New Testament or in early Christian literature of the existence of an order called apostles later than the Apostolic age. We have no right to assume a second-century order of apostles, who had not seen Christ in the flesh, for the sake of bolstering up a preconceived notion of the date of the Didache.

The above seems to have a logical flaw. According to the Bible, Paul did not see Christ in the flesh (or if he did, only after the resurrection and ascension, in which case a similar experience could have been thought to occur to someone else at any time); yet, according to the above, he was classed as an apostle; so the logic that there is no reason to suspect that there were apostles who had not seen Christ in the flesh does not seem to have any validity. Comments?

Is this text source from somewhere else, by the way? "We have no right to..." does not seem quite the right tone for Wikipedia, and certainly suggests Original Research. TSP 18:04, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It's from the Catholic Encyclopedia: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04779a.htm

The claim, as I have understood it, is that we have no historical basis for assuming "a second-century order of apostles" -- the mention of Paul is just a passing comment (a pre-emptive caveat perhaps?), but is not germane to the argument. In other words, the argument is based on history, not on the nature of apostleship. I may have misunderstood, but that is how I'm seeing the statement. --MonkeeSage 10:05, 30 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Dates

What's the reference for the dates in the intro? The reason I ask is that [2] gives an earlier date range. Pansy Brandybuck AKA Sophia^TalkTCF 09:06, 3 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Didache Title Translation Question

The Didache (Διδαχὴ in Koine Greek) or "Teaching"— short for "Teaching of the Lord to the Gentiles by the Twelve Apostles" (Διδαχὴ κυρίου διὰ τῶν δώδεκα ἀποστόλων τοῖς ἔθνεσιν)

Is this accurate? The translations I have read called it "Teaching of the Lord to the Nations by the Twelve Apostles" or "Teaching of the Twelve Apostles" or ""Teaching of the Lord to the Nations". That title basically suggests that it is not for Jews. Care to discuss? Simonapro 15:21, 2 May 2006 (UTC)][reply]

Gentiles and nations are often interchangeable from a Jewish standpoint. You'll find different translations of the Bible will sometimes use "gentiles" and sometimes "nations." It would seem to me that either is appropriate. Yahnatan 15:33, 2 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I see a possible problem with the title "Teaching of the Lord to the Gentiles by the Twelve Apostles". It appears that this could suggest that the teaching is a special dispensation for only the Gentile convert and not for the Jewish covert. Does this make sense now? Simonapro 18:08, 2 May 2006 (UTC)][reply]

By the time of the mid-first to second century, there was a developed antithesis between Jews and Christians (I'm not making any value judgement about that, just stating the fact). As for the translation of ἔθνεσιν; given the common use in the NT which presupposes a Jewish background (e.g., the two commissions: Matt. 10:5, ἐθνῶν=of Gentiles; Matt. 28:19, ἔθνη=Gentiles), and the Christian-Jewish antipathy at the time the Didache was composed, "Gentiles" is the most likely translation. But I'm no Greek scholar. We should probably go with the most common translation by people who are Greek scholars, or add something like (added part bolded):

short for "Teaching of the Lord to the Gentiles by the Twelve Apostles", or "Teaching of the Lord to the Nations by the Twelve Apostles" . . .

My two cents. » MonkeeSage « 10:29, 3 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"The teaching of the Lord to the Gentiles by the twelve apostles." Apostolic Fathers, 2nd ed, 1992, Holmes, ISBN 0801056764

As for the comment about this not being for Jews, it is obviously related to the Council of Jerusalem, which see for details. Short story: the Council of Jerusalem addressed the issue of what parts of the Mosaic Law were required of new gentile converts.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.78.20.61 (talk • contribs) 19:43, 3 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Christianity started out as a 1st century Jewish sect (Acts 3:1; 5:27–42; 21:18–26; 24:5; 24:14; 28:22) around the followers of Jesus Christ, including the apostles and elders and relatives of Jesus, and quickly expanded to include non-Jews, called Gentiles. As an eschatological movement, it anticipated Gentile interest in the God of Abraham, as for example prophesied in Isaiah 56:6–8, see also Great Commission. The question of what parts of the Mosaic Law apply to gentiles is still an open debate today. According to Judaism, it is the Noahide Law, see also Proselyte#In the Torah, Old_Testament#Christian_view_of_the_Law, Law and Gospel.209.78.20.60 21:35, 3 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I believe the document is post-Council of Jerusalem of 50 AD, at least 20 years after that around (c. 70–160 CE). The translations on http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/didache.html don't seem to mention the word gentiles. Maybe it would be better to find an early or modern Catholic source which states that the english translation of the title of the Didache is "Teaching of the Lord to the Gentiles by the Twelve Apostles". I have been trying to find that all day but can't. Something tells me that the word gentiles is maybe a very modern interpretation that may twist the document to a gentile-only orientation to exclude Jews. Simonapro 22:11, 3 May 2006 (UTC)][reply]

Google search for "Teaching of the Lord to the Gentiles by the Twelve Apostles" (~280).

For "Teaching of the Lord to the Nations by the Twelve Apostles" (0). » MonkeeSage « 00:14, 4 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Simonapro, I'm sorry, but I have to say that your objection is rather odd. Would you likewise object to Paul of Tarsus being called the Apostle to the Gentiles (εθνων αποστολος Romans 11:13 Romans 11:13)?64.169.0.162 09:19, 4 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I would object to that tag if it is used to mean that Paul only preached to gentiles. Act 17:10) . That is the same type of objection I currently have with the Didache title if it is used to mean that the Didache is only for the gentiles. The Didache should be for everybody. Paul also preached to everybody. [[[User:Simonapro|Simonapro]] 15:32, 4 May 2006 (UTC)]

Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not

Wikipedia:No original research

Wikipedia:Reliable sources 63.201.24.167 20:16, 4 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]