Talk:Ali Baba and the Forty Thieves

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Reference contains opinion

"If a receiver of stolen goods can be described as "honest"!" Pretty sure that doesn't belong there. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.176.169.138 (talk) 10:24, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It's a note rather than a reference, of course - some articles nowadays have the two kinds of footnote separated. Hardly an "opinion" though - Ali Baba "finds" the theives' loot, not old buried treasure but their current stash, and has no compunction about converting it to his own use without any thought for the proper owners (presuming the thieves haven't murdered them all! This may be "honest" by fairy story standards (or even by the mores of Medieval Arabia or Persia) but it would be quite dishonest nowadays, in fact it would count as receiving stolen goods. Add new comments to the bottom of the page, by the way - they'll get missed otherwise - and sign them of course. --Soundofmusicals (talk) 05:41, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Open Sesame

m What is the phrase in the original Arabic; is "Open Sesame" a literal translation, or a phoenetic one? --DropDeadGorgias (talk) 21:35, 10 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I believe "Open Tahini!" would be a literal translation. The IPA characters for the Arabic might look like "if'tax tax'in!" where "ax" comes close to the German "ach." The simple iambic rhythm gains a mysterious tension from the inner alliterative repetition, the anacrusis... By comparison, the feeble English "Open Sesame" seems phonetically too weak to be a proper magical command. Just plain Bill 02:32, 15 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Open sesame in Arabic would be "Iftah Ya Simsim" that's the literal translation and I have heard it used many times used in some cartoons, but that was a long time ago and I was very young RadicalSatDude 17:52, 15 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

If "Open Sesame" is a translation, of any type (literal or phonetic), it is still quite interesting that it sounds like "Open Says Me". Was this translation chosen on purpose, because of that play on words, or is this coincidental? I know that many cartoon sketches played upon this with characters attempting different phrases. Spooons 13:34, 19 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

it's a direct translation from arabian nights. here: Then dragging two sacks up the stone staircase he backed into the cave door. 'Open, Wheat!' he said irritably. But nothing happened.

'Oh, sorry. Open, Barley!' he said, certain that he had chosen the correct cereal.

But nothing happened.

The commonest words are the most difficult to remember: he recited all the crops he could think of, but the magic words 'Open Sesame' we as lost in his memory as a pin dropped in the sea.

-Colorfulharp233 21:43, 15 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I've read that sesame was chosen as the magical cereal because it is a mild laxative. What's a folk tale without some good old fashioned toilet humor? Asat 03:18, 13 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

-- "Open Sesame" in Arabic is افتح يا سمسم Eftax ya semsem , x means a letter between the German ach and H , also I wanted to say that 1000 nights and night is an Arabic story perhaps with Indian and Persian roots even though a lot of stories have been added to the tale from Arabic heritage and folk stories .By the way the oldest version of 1000 nights and night remind is from the 9th century and if you can read Arabic you can see the structure of the poems in the tale is different than Persian poems Aziz1005 22:52, 1 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Mainstream Press?

Would the statment about the mainstream press count as an opinion? There seems to be no support for it offered in the article or links, doesn't that violate wikipedia standards?

I won't change it, because I don't really know the answer, it just seems suspect.

--68.223.54.80 22:11, 4 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Iraq War

Is it strictly acurate to refer to the Iraq war as a war on Islam? I know some people have that interpretation (Both some people in the Arab world and the ignorant westerners who make the assumption Muslim=terrorist) I propose that simply 'War in Iraq' would be more acurate, possibly dated to distinguish it from the first gulf war. Edited to add: Looking at the history it appears that this was a recent change, probably in reaction to the fact that the previous text refered to the US and allies as 'Friendly forces' which is either NPOV in itself or just innacurate for a global encylopedia. Edited again: I'll try and NPOV it a bit. If anyone disputes my changes then just speak up here. --JamesGlover 00:23, 6 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Headline text

hey i don't get the open sec3eni thing can u help me{| class="wikitable" |- ! header 1 ! header 2 ! header 3 |- | row 1, cell 1 | row 1, cell 2 | row 1, cell 3 |- | row 2, cell 1 | row 2, cell 2 | row 2, cell 3 |}

Usage in Malaysia

In the article Ketuanan Melayu, we read: 'Many Bumiputra contractors in turn subcontracted their jobs to others, who were in some cases Chinese; "Ali Baba" arrangements with "the Malay [Ali] using his privileges to acquire licences and permits denied the non-Malay, then accepting a fee to be the front-man while the non-Malay [Baba] ran the business," were prevalent.'

Note that 'Ali' is a common Malay name, and that the 'Babas' of Melaka are Malayanised Chinese, descendants of Chinese traders who intermarried with Malays, at and before the time of the Portuguese there. So the 'Ali Baba' of the term is a punning combination of the two parties, rather than the name of a single individual.

That article links here; should this article either link there, or provide a similar statement? Opinions, please! yoyo 02:44, 8 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Use In Iraq War

As of 2008, the term "Ali Baba" is used in Iraq to refer to "robbers" or bandits (of any sort). It is most frequently used during enforcement of the "one man / one gun" rule which allows for one gun per fighting age adult male to protect against robbers. The term is used because (perhaps through previous use by coalition forces) it is a common term understandable to both troops and civilians. -- my main citation is personal experience, however I was able to find one article that eludes to it. http://www.idahostatesman.com/216/story/9326.html I'm not good with wiki-code so I am putting it in here, in hopes that it will be added as appropriate —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.82.11.15 (talk) 11:48, 3 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Persian Story

If the oldest version of 1001 nights is Arabic, because Arabs burnt the persian versions when Iran was invaded by Arabs. There are some Arabic or Indian stories in 1001 nights, but main Characters and more than 80% of this story are iranian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.154.36.62 (talk) 13:42, 3 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There is no mention that this story, and in fact the entire book of 1001 Nights is a Persian story, that was later adopted and translated into Arabic (who then unethically changed the title to 1001 Arabian Nights. The book and its stories should be rightfully credit as being Persian and not Arabic. (Unsigned undated remark)

"The lead thief pretends to be an oil merchant in need of Ali Baba's hospitality, bringing with him mules loaded with forty oil jars, one filled with oil, the other thirty-nine with the other thieves (the missing members were the scouts previously sent to find the house, who were killed for their failure)." 1 thief in front + 39 in jars = 40. what is this about missing members? There is no mention that this story, and in fact the entire book of 1001 Nights is a Persian story, that was later adopted and translated into Arabic (who then unethically changed the title to 1001 Arabian Nights). The book and its stories should be rightfully credited as being Persian and not Arabic! (unsigned comment inserted at the head of this page at unknown date??)

If you have a reference that the story might be originally in Persian rather than Arabic, or have a Persian origin then please produce it - we've bent over double to include the possibility of a Persian origin of 1001 Nights and Sinbad the Sailor in spite of scholarly consensus being that this is just not so. If on the other hand you're relying on it having been included in the Western translations of 1001 Nights then forget it - because this story actually isn't from the original version of that book at all! Explain again - it's not really a 1001 Nights story!!!! Got that yet? SO if you want to say it's Persian you're going to have to find something else, and it has to be a proper reference. --Soundofmusicals (talk) 03:08, 17 June

2008 (UTC)

Forty Thieves Village is in the south-eastern Anatolian region (known as Kurdistan). In the village there have been discovered many treasure that have been displayed in the Mardin Museum. It's not fiction; they were real people who has been commemorated with naming their villages, caves, and hills after them. [Previous is also unsigned.]

Repeat: IF you have a REFERENCE supporting this, Sir or Madam, please cite!--and sign, if only as a courtesy to the rest of us. But realize that the naming of a place or a treasure is not good evidence that there was a real person involved. For example, the existence of several places named "Arthur's Seat" in the British Isles does not prove that King Arthur ruled there (no matter how much some of us wish it did)! Any more than calling an ancient treasure the Mask of Agamemnon proves the existence of Agamemnon. Etc.

I do note that the Mardin Museum, aka the Mardýn Museum, exists. GeorgeTSLC (talk) 17:22, 13 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Milo Who?

I have deleted the phrase "and Milo knows nothing about ali Baba" from the first sentence under "The Story" because it is apparently meaningless. If someone feels it needs to be there, it would be highly desirable to identify Milo, who is not otherwise mentioned in the article! GeorgeTSLC (talk) 17:09, 13 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Trivial trivia

The "other media" section was blanked by another editor - I can actually see his/her point and agree it is a bit out of control. On the other hand perhaps it needs a good trim rather than being completely deleted? In the meantime I have restored it, for what it is worth (not very much, I fear).--Soundofmusicals (talk) 21:27, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ali Baba as a thief!

The (mistaken, dare one say illiterate) misconception of Ali Baba as one of the thieves, even as their leader is, alas, very widespread indeed nowadays. The use of "Ali Baba" as slang for a thief is one obvious example - as is the Disney Aladdin (or is it the genie) with his "Ali Baba had them forty thieves" (sic, in fact sick), listing people who had helpers. I suspect every child was familiar with the protagonists of the story when you and I were little!! Alas, various comic book and cartoon "improvements" of the story over the years make this note important, just to give the original tale a plug. --Soundofmusicals (talk) 05:26, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Bowdlerise a charged word???

This is a perfectly good English language word with no inherent "charge" or bias whatsoever (although like any word is can be used in a POV way - NOT the case here, evidently!!). There is no other word in English that conveys its precise meaning, which is to expurgate a work of literature (especially a classic) and modify language, plot details etc. to remove "offence" - especially to small children. (After Thomas Bowdler who produced an expurgated version of Shakespeare in 1818). --Soundofmusicals (talk) 01:30, 11 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Arab world template

I don't think the Arab World template belongs to the heading of this article, as much as there is no template for the "Western World" on the articles of Roland or King Arthur. Thoughts? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.129.43.62 (talk) 08:28, 14 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

One could very well have a similar template for the "Medieval World" for the articles concerned. Templates like this, where they bring together related articles, are very valuable indeed. That's MY thoughts, anyway. Point is, anything that makes this encyclopedia more useful!!! --Soundofmusicals (talk) 20:45, 18 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

the origin of name, baba?

ali is arabic name, but what is the meaning of "baba"? does it have any meaning in arabic or persians language. we should explain "baba" in the article.

note:i suprised when saw english people use the name of "ali baba" because its sound is turkish for me. i call my father as "baba" (turkish meaning of father) and also in turkish, we use "mafya babası" which means the leader of mafia. --Ollios (talk) 18:11, 31 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

In Turkish baba means father/dad. --Kirov Airship (talk) 16:15, 8 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The word is defined in the Dictionary of Modern Written Arabic as meaning either "pope" or "papa, father, daddy"... AnonMoos (talk) 17:38, 8 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Gallery

Putting the gallery in the middle of this article is a bad idea and nearly guarantees that the lower sections will remain an un-encyclopedic mess. I suggest deleting the gallery, keeping only one or two of these images in regular thumb size in the article and deleting the trivia. -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:24, 14 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Basically I agree - although I've trimmed the trivia and put the gallery at the bottom instead. Feel free to be a bit "bolder" if you like, I certainly won't argue!!--Soundofmusicals (talk) 23:34, 14 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Meaning of name

Someone has come up with the fact (take your word for it) that "Baba" means "Father" or "Daddy" in Arabic. If the character or the story were sometimes called "Father Ali" (or something like it) in English then we would probably add it to the first paragraph of the lead (as "Arabian Nights" is added to "One Thousand and One Nights") - the snag is that the story ISN'T called that, at least not in English.

Is the fact that "Baba" means "Father" relevant to this article, and if it is relevant, is it "notable"? I'm by no means convinced - but if you've a logical reason why it might be, by all means... --Soundofmusicals (talk) 19:57, 8 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

In general, we give the literal translation of non-English terms (even proper names) in the lead or later in the article, cf. hors d'oeuvre, Karagöz and Hacivat, Montenegro, regardless of whether the literal translation is used in English ("outside the work"? "blackeye"? "Blackmountain"?) -- though of course there are also cases where the English version is used, e.g. Le Père Goriot 'Old Goriot' or 'Father Goriot' (though a more accurate translation from the French would probably be "old man Goriot").

The word baba does not mean 'father', but 'dad' or 'father' -- it is a familiar term. The formal term in Arabic would be ab: Father Ali would be Abu 'Ali, which in fact is used as a name in Arabic.

Is this notable? Maybe, maybe not. But certainly more notable than the fact that baba also means 'daddy' in Turkish, Persian, Greek, etc. --Macrakis (talk) 22:34, 8 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, Abu Ali in Arabic means "the father of Ali", not "Father Ali"... AnonMoos (talk) 22:49, 8 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

We're not talking about a "term" - but a personal name (in this case the name of a fictitious character, but the principle is the same as if we were talking about a real person, living or dead). Most personal names have a meaning - but it is certaining not general practice to add the meaning of the name to every article about someone with that name. If we had an article on someone called (say) "Peter Wood" - we MIGHT mention the fact that "Peter" means a rock or stone, or "Wood" (as a surname) refers to someone living in, or near a forest - BUT ONLY IF this meaning had a particlar relevance or notability in relation to the person in question. Surely? Or am I missing something? --Soundofmusicals (talk) 00:52, 9 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

AnonMoos is correct about "father of Ali" -- my mistake. I also agree with Soundofmusicals that we should find a source for Ali Baba -- my sense is that it is 'meaningful', unlike 'Peter Wood', but my sense isn't enough. --Macrakis (talk) 02:04, 9 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

As for personal names vs. other proper names (Montenegro, Pont Neuf, Arc de Triomphe -- all of which are glossed in their articles), the names of fictitious characters often have names which have a more-or-less transparent sense, relevant to the story, e.g. Snow White (usually translated from Schneewittchen), Oedipus (not usually translated as 'Swollen Foot'), Cinderella (not usually translated, but cf. http://books.google.com/books?id=EAsQAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA3&dq=ashes, where the name is glossed as "Ashes Warmer"). All of these are easily sourced. I agree that I have not brought forward a source for Ali Baba, and that we should not gloss it.

On the other hand, I was surprised to find that Lago Maggiore and Isola Bella (for example) are not glossed; I have added glosses -- please discuss on the relevant Talk pages if you disagree. --Macrakis (talk) 17:14, 9 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Eastern "Robin Hood" ?

Simplistically, the eastern story of Ali Baba seems vaguely similar to the western story of Robin Hood, both involving prominent & popularized leaders of criminal gangs. 66.235.38.214 (talk) 07:12, 18 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]