Talk:Hollyhock Retreat

I find it objectionable the mention of CEO Dana Bass and her husband Joel solomon of Renewal Partners. This is a commercial Promotion to inhance Renewal Partners investment objectives In my opinion.

I could add some factual information to "Hollyhock Retreat" like a memorial to "Sue Saunders" who worked at Hollyhock Retreat for 25 years and died in POVERTY.

I think Wikipedia is not a forum for deceitful commercial promotions. I've tried to keep the edit clean and simple.

I suggest you read what is not vandalism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.102.153.51 (talk)

Thank you for explaining your multiple deletions of the same content. It is much more useful to have this discussion and understand why you were taking those editing actions so that we can reach consensus about what is and is not appropriate for inclusion in the article. I do not find it to be promotional to list the executive management of an organization in an article about the organization. In fact, that is common practice on Wikipedia. If you have additional information to add regarding Hollyhock that comes from reliable sources, then by all means please do add it. The article currently does not have much information, and any additional information to expand it that comes from reliable sources would be a most welcome addition. ConcernedVancouverite (talk) 18:07, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It appears that you have again continued to make the same deletions. I do not want to engage in an edit war, so I will post the content that you have repeatedly deleted here so that consensus can be reached about the appropriateness of inclusion. The statements that have been deleted are, "The CEO is Dana Bass Solomon," and "and the current volunteer president is her husband, Joel Solomon. Mr. Solomon is president of Renewal Partners which was a financial backer of Happy Planet Foods, Inhance Investment Management, and Capers Markets." If you can explain how you feel that listing the executive management of an organization is "deceitful commercial promotion" it would be helpful to understand your point of view. ConcernedVancouverite (talk) 18:19, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Response to Third Opinion Request:

Disclaimers: I am responding to a third opinion request made at WP:3O. I have made no previous edits on Hollyhock Retreat and have no known association with the editors involved in this discussion. The third opinion process (FAQ) is informal and I have no special powers or authority apart from being a fresh pair of eyes. Third opinions are not tiebreakers and should not be "counted" in determining whether or not consensus has been reached. My personal standards for issuing third opinions can be viewed here.

Opinion: Retain the sentence which reads, "The CEO is Dana Bass Solomon, and the current volunteer president is her husband, Joel Solomon." Delete the sentence which reads, "Mr. Solomon is president of Renewal Partners which was a financial backer of Happy Planet Foods, Inhance Investment Management, and Capers Markets." The names of the CEO and President are marginally useful information for this article. The information about Mr. Solomon is not. That would be true, and alone enough reason to delete it, even if the article were much longer and more detailed, but as it is, including it violates WP:UNDUE. I think that this article would also have a better chance of surviving a notability deletion proposal — for which it would appear to be at some risk — without that information. Let me finally note that the reverting needs to stop. Though WP:3RR hasn't yet been violated per se, an edit war doesn't have to violate 3RR to be an edit war. Leave the article as it is and work it out here on the talk page. If you can't do that, do a request for comments, take it to Mediation Cabal, or something similar, but don't just keep reverting back and forth.

What's next: Once you've considered this opinion click here to see what happens next.—TRANSPORTERMAN (TALK) 21:31, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your quick third opinion, TransporterMan. I can accept your proposed solution. Thank you for your time. ConcernedVancouverite (talk) 21:39, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your opinion TransporterMan.

I can agree with Delete the sentence which reads, "Mr. Solomon is president of Renewal Partners which was a financial backer of Happy Planet Foods, Inhance Investment Management, and Capers Markets."

It appears ConcernedVancouverite is willing to as well. Thanks for your time. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.102.153.107 (talk) 23:44, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion of edits 05-22-13

Quick explanation here:

First: My edits in the info section read '... on topics including wellness and wisdom practices, arts and culture, business and leadership development[3], relationships, nonviolent communication, Tibetan Buddhism, yoga, holistic health, integrative medicine, kayaking, leadership,[2] and social ventures.[4]'

The edits that ConcernedVancouverite has reverted to read '... on topics including animal communication, relationships, nonviolent communication,[3] spiritual chanting,[3] Tibetan Buddhism, Kabbalah,[4] yoga, morphic resonance, holistic health, integrative medicine, leadership,[2] and social ventures.[5]'

These are fairly similar - I do not see a reference for 'animal communication' anywhere, which was why I removed it. However, the items I added - arts and culture, business and leadership development, kayaking - are all sourced from ref #10, so those should remain.

Second: on the Political section, I find the Hollyhock Mafia/Vancouver City Hollyhock mention a little out of place. There are several sources in which the Hollyhock Mafia/Vancouver City Hollyhock names are mentioned, but out of five, three are newspaper articles that simply mention the fact, and the only two that actually directly apply those names appear to both be the City Caucus blog. Upon further investigation, this appears to be a partisan blog on city politics favourable to the city party currently in opposition to the Mayor's party, thus using this blog as a primary source is inherently biased.

While City Caucus may certainly have valid concerns, I am not sure that the Wikipedia page is the place to air them, or that they are relevant here. Including these as references introduces bias in itself, since City Caucus is the only outlet to actually use the Mafia/City Hollyhock names, and they only represent one side of politics.

Not only this, as City Caucus is a blog (evident from just the front page, which as of 5/22/2013 clearly states that it is a retired blog) as far as I understand, it does not pass Wikipedia's criteria for reliable sources.

Neither do the Hollyhock Mafia/City Hollyhock names: in fact, reference #10 (a link to a blog post reposting an official Vancouver Sun article) explicitly states that Bloggers have dubbed Cambie and 12th Avenue as "Vancouver City Hollyhock" or the "Hollyhock mafia."

On top of the above, Hollyhock is a retreat, much like the Omega Institute - not a political organization. Mentioning that several City Hall staffers have at some point in their lives had connections to Hollyhock would be akin to saying they had connections to UBC Engineering.

ConcernedVancouverite, I look forward to your response. Mountaincaribou (talk) 03:45, 23 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Your edits were reverted because you deleted a large chunk of cited content. If you would like to modify the initial description to add the various components you are talking about that they feature at Hollyhock that sounds appropriate to do. Both the Vancouver Sun and Globe and Mail have reported on the tight politican connections between Hollyhock, Solomon, and the Vision Vancouver party in cites such as these: [1] and [2] so it seems worthy of mentioning, and does not seem appropriate to remove reliably source content. As we can't delete it, what language change do you propose to it? ConcernedVancouverite (talk) 14:09, 23 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your comments. OK, I will revert the list of activities to the combination of your and my lists.

Re the politician connections, I am not convinced that we can't delete it, to be honest. The Globe and Mail simply says 'But he shudders when the two of them are jokingly referred to as part of the Hollyhock mafia around Mr. Robertson', and does not label them that directly. The Vancouver Sun says 'But city hall watchers on websites such as citycaucus. com, founded by Daniel Fontaine, chief of staff to former NPA Mayor Sam Sullivan, have raised concerns about a half dozen or so new hires at city hall having ties to Hollyhock. Bloggers have dubbed Cambie and 12th Avenue as "Vancouver City Hollyhock" or the "Hollyhock mafia."'

The Sun seems clear in stating that bloggers have come up with these terms, and that bloggers have applied them. But the newspapers (which are certainly reliable sources as you say!) have done nothing but comment on the blogs' comments, which are naturally biased, as blogs tend to be! That's why I'm not sure this counts as being worthy of inclusion - i.e. the newspapers have only reported on what bloggers are saying... and bloggers aren't reliable sources. Hence the UBC engineering reference... bloggers could say that too, and newspapers might mention it, but it's not necessarily relevant. would that make sense?

Mountaincaribou (talk) 15:06, 23 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]