Talk:Mentalism
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Disambig to 'The'
You should add a ref to the TV series. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.207.164.6 (talk) 20:25, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
Maybe I'm being too literal, and I daresay I wouldn't expect the page on Mentalism to conform to Behaviorist terminology standards (even though it is a different form of Mentalism than the Behaviorists usually contrast their theories with, wouldn't THAT be poetic if it were to conform!), BUT what the hell does "to subliminally manipulate the subject through psychological means" even mean? Examples would be nice, and if anyone does provide examples, I contend even now that they won't best be classified as "psychological" means, but we'll see for sure after they are provided. --Uroshnor 09:04, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Re: "to subliminally manipulate the subject through psychological means" - you will note that, in the context of the entry, this is a method that is presented as an explanation to audiences by performers; not an actual technique. An example might be a performer claiming to force a person to choose a specific word from a book by planting subliminal clues in the environment around them. The choice may actually be forced by another method (to discuss this further in a public forum would be to break the code of magical exposure - and Wikipedia is not "The Masked Magician"). However, the entry does say that Mentalist performers use misdirection, which is in itself a form of psychological manipulation - with a small "p". So, yes, you are being too literal ;) --Mr Twain 10.30, 01 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I would just like to point out that the term mentalist is also British slang for someone with an obvious mental illnes or who othewise behaves eratically or engages in activities that would be considered unwise. e.g. "John's a mentalist, he drove at 100 miles per hour down a busy street".
Magic vs. Mentalism
Is it fair to say that a difference between a mentalist and a magician is that a magician will generally admit that he is doing tricks, while mentalists usually insist that they have supernatural (or metaphysical, however you wish to call it) abilities? That's been my (limited) experience. The last mentalist I saw insisted his powers were not illusions and he had psychic/telekenitic abilities. He was pretty convincing too, much more than any magician I've ever seen. Not that I believe him, but I was stymied. -R. fiend 00:23, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
I disagree. Maybe some mentalists insist that they actually have supernatural powers, but others-Derren Brown, for instance-insist that they do not. Rayden54 17:03, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
Actually, let's clarify: The difference between a magician and a mentalist has nothing to do with their claims, but rather their approach to magic. Demonstrations of mental acuity or memory -- such as "magic square" problems, the Knight's Tour problem, memorization of a book or magazine, etc. -- would be more in line with mentalism than magic, which deals more with an approach of things appearing and disappearing (which is why it's commonly referred to as "conjuring"). There are people performing magic tricks today that claim supernatural powers (generally people performing things like "psychic healing" or various "witch doctor" rouses), as well as mentalists who claim psychic powers. This is a personal choice of the performer, or may in fact be related to serious mental illness. Anything that seems like a cross between mentalism and magic (for instance, "reading" a memory of someone's international vacation only to cause a coin from that country to appear in their clenched fist) falls into yet a 3rd category: "mental magic". Hope that clears up that little discrepancy.Stslavik (talk) 22:58, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
Mentalism and the 'Geist'
"Geist" isn’t a term commonly used in Mentalism. “Mentalism and the 'Geist'” is obviously an advertising to promote Harling & Nyrup´s brand new book "Geist". (see history)
Mentalist lists.
A series of edits have added an long and unwieldy list of mentalist performers to the body of the text. Several of those mentioned are corporate and Vegas performers - not really "notable" in Wikipedia terms. As an indicator of how arbitrary this list is, Luke Jermay has been removed several times despite the fact that he is now listed as an advisor to Derren Brown on his latest TV series and is well respected in the UK magic community.
It's proven time and time again too easy to secrete advertisments in these lists.
If a performer is notable enough to be included in this list, then they're notable enough to be moved to the "Famous Mentalists" section - otherwise they're just cluttering up the listing. If there's no objection, I will Wikify the list in 30 days time, removing the non-notable and repeated entries and reordering those categorised xenophobically as "England, Europe and elsewhere". Mr Twain 02:38, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
I've now made the edit. I've removed mentalists who are "known" primarily for corporate work and those without a significant body of work, moving the remainder to the "Famous Mentalists" list. Mr Twain 10:55, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
The use of the word 'Geist' (coined by Harling & Nyrup in their book of the same name) is a new term within mentalism,
but the idea that it represents had been previously untitled and made any discussion of same unwieldy and confusing. That it is a new term should not detract from the importance of this; terminology has to begin somewhere, and the writer's focus on the 'Geist' as a method of both misdirection and performance development has contributed much to mentalism itself. 81.145.240.19 10:37, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
What determines famous? This isn't just a list of mentalists, but a list of FAMOUS mentalists. Mentalists and professional magicians who have wiki pages can be found in the category links. A significant contribution to the form, acknowledged from more than one source, surely, should apply to get on this list. Also, when an anonymous editor adds a name to this list and it is the same anonymous editor who founded the bluelinked page, self-promotion becomes an inescapable conclusion. --Kosmoshiva (talk) 13:54, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
?
Merging "Mentalism" and "Mentalist"
I see little or no valid reason for the petition to merge these two entries. A substantial amount of the "mentalist" entry contains material that is not relevant to the "mentalism" entry, discussing, as it does, different meanings of the word. There's also a precedent for keeping the description of a practice separate from the description of practioners. "Stage Magic" and "Magician" both maintain separate entries. Mr Twain 22:06, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
It seems to me to merge them would be a help to those looking up the subject, otherwise one has to find two or three pages for similar and often redundant information. Already you have three subjects, Mentalism, Mental, and Mentalist under the Magic and Illusion box.
Magicusb (talk) 20:46, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
- FWIW I'm amazed that the merge hasn't been made already. By this standard every pursuit would have two articles: "cryptography" and "cryptographer", "archery" and "archer"... ciphergoth (talk) 16:55, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
- Merger sat proposed and not done for a long time, so I just did it. WP:BOLD and all that! ciphergoth (talk) 17:02, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
Derren Brown and the supernatural
- Moving comment from anon user into its own section before replying to it ciphergoth (talk) 16:47, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
The article states that "Many contemporary performers, including Richard Osterlind, Banachek and Derren Brown attribute their results to less supernatural skills". Now, I don't know about the other two, but you simply can't say that about Derren. In no way is he attributing his skills to supernatural phenomena. Just the opposite -- he makes very clear that he uses various mentalist methods (clear-reading, misdirection etc., none of them supernatural). Besides, Derren is a self-proclaimed skeptic and atheist. You should present him fairly -- he's a conscious user of these methods and doesn't hide the fact from his audience. 80.249.194.29 (talk) 14:07, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
Rather a redundant point, seeing as your view of Brown is entirely supported by the text that you quote... Mr Twain (talk) 23:37, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
A Chinese translation of the term is based on the following...
--222.64.26.148 (talk) 22:28, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
--222.64.26.148 (talk) 22:31, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
--222.64.26.148 (talk) 22:32, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
--222.64.26.148 (talk) 22:37, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
--222.64.26.148 (talk) 22:39, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
--222.67.218.121 (talk) 02:48, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
- http://scholar.google.com/scholar?start=0&q=%E5%94%AF%E5%BF%83%E4%B8%BB%E7%BE%A9&hl=zh-TW&lr=lang_en%7Clang_zh-TW —Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.67.218.121 (talk) 02:57, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
- See the translation for the Chinese term
http://etd.lib.nsysu.edu.tw/ETD-db/ETD-search/view_etd?URN=etd-0216105-110121 --222.67.218.121 (talk) 03:15, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
--222.67.218.121 (talk) 03:23, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
Alleged Mentalists
This section is poorly done. For starters, Sherlock Holmes is listed as a historical figure. Also, the link for "Weiner" goes not to an individual but a list of people with that name, and as near as I can tell none of them are the one being referenced (though several might be). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.1.225.206 (talk) 20:10, 25 June 2012 (UTC)
Patrick Jane isn't a Mentalist, he's a fictional character in the TV show The Mentalist. 58.169.236.232 (talk) 08:02, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
Section on Techniques?
I think it would be useful to include a section on techniques that mentalists use to practice their craft. I know it involves memory and cold reading but there must be more information out there on this subject. Since mentalists are open about the fact that they do not have psychic powers and there are techniques involved, I think it would be valuable to include some information on this. 63.143.219.45 (talk) 18:12, 23 June 2013 (UTC)