Talk:Racism in Italy
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The comment by Silvio Berlusconi on President Obama
This comment has very little to do with racism, but of course it was very difficult to be understood by a non-Italian. In Italy in fact, to be sun tanned is a plus even for an handsome man. In other parts of the world, however, tanned skin is seen suspiciously, as a result of mixing of races. I am sure 100% that Berlusconi was thinking to a positive aspect of President Obama, the Italian way of thinking on this matter. His comment was directed to underline the glamour of President Obama, not to laugh at his African origin. In fact Mr. Berlusconi has many faults, but certainly is not a racist. Among his friends there are people from all Europe, Northern Africa and South America --Deguef (talk) 15:24, 6 May 2012 (UTC)
Racism in Roman Empire?
Ancient Romans (of the Empire), differently from other peoples of ancient times, were not at all racist. In fact emperors and generals of the Roman empire had different origin (Spain, Gaul, Balcans, Middle East, Africa). It did not happen for other states, kingdoms and empires (Egypt, Greece, Israel, Persia, etc.). Therefore this sentence is wrong.--Deguef (talk) 15:34, 6 May 2012 (UTC)
- That is true. The old Roman and Fascist empires are also not to be confused with the modern nation-state of Italy. 174.93.177.37 (talk) 02:20, 22 March 2013 (UTC)
RfC
An RfC: Which descriptor, if any, can be added in front of Southern Poverty Law Center when referenced in other articles? has been posted at the Southern Poverty Law Center talk page. Your participation is welcomed. – MrX 17:12, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
Alien foreigners
Hallo Cyclopia
no, is not irrelevant, since in this subject there are lately a lot of partial and distorting information coming out. Question: is this info cited in the book in object? Thanks, Alex2006 (talk) 15:58, 12 August 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, as I told you a couple of times in the edit summaries. It is exactly quoted there. Just click the link in the source and look. I think it is quite a reliable source, being published by Oxford Handbooks, which is a section of Oxford University Press, as far as I can see. If you have better sources (and if you want to help me fixing the terrible state of this article!) be my guest, but I am unsure of what "clarification" is needed. -- cyclopiaspeak! 16:09, 12 August 2013 (UTC)
- Hallo Cyclopia, no, I explained myself wrongly: I am interested in knowing if there is a note in the book which refers to this term. The reason is the following: some months ago I started to read a book about this subject by an author cited here, Aaron Gillette. Unfortunately for him, a couple of years ago I have been reading the "Storia degli ebrei italiani sotto il fascismo" by De Felice, and I found out that Gillette had "forgotten" about 50% of the info about a particular subject (the alleged antisemitism of the young Mussolini) in order to demonstrate that he was antisemitic during the war years. This partiality has been confirmed by an interview to a French historian which I found on the web,where he is defined "extremely partial". That's why after that I mistrust these sources. Since I see that you are Italian, I advise you warmly to read the book of De Felice, who could as first use the Archive of the Jewish community in Rome. This book was commissioned (and praised) by the Unione delle comunità israelitiche italiane. De Felice was an historian, and this means - among others - that if he cites something, he tells always in a note where he found it. This I wanted to know from you. I read maybe hundred Italian books about fascism, including primary sources like the diaries of Ciano and Bottai, and I never heard this expression, while I read quite often another one: alloglotti, which means "alien speakers": so were defined the minorities by the fascists, who never could think to define "Alien foreigner" an Italian citizen. For the fascists, someone born and living in the kingdom was Italian, independently from language and custom, period. Defining him/her as a "foreigner" would have been the worst "autogoal" for them. I suspect that these authors mixed up one word for another. Ciao, Alex2006 (talk) 16:38, 12 August 2013 (UTC)
- That's a very good point, I acknowledge I am not as acquainted with the subject. Given that the quote is not essential, I can leave it out. That said, I suppose it is extremly hard to disentangle the various views of historicians on these subjects, and I wouldn't go ahead to say who is partial and who is not (De Felice, while extremly respected, has also been criticized a lot, as far as I know). I am working now with what I'm finding online but once at home for the summer holidays, I'll go through my mother's bookshelves -she is an history teacher and has a huge library, including De Felice books. Meanwhile, if you have trustworthy sources with stuff to add, by all means please add. -- cyclopiaspeak! 16:43, 12 August 2013 (UTC)
- Unfortunately this is a very "hot" subject: 20 years ago Italians were described as brava gente, nowadays as evil as the Nazi. Both views are partially true (about Italian war crimes you can read for example "Italiani brava gente?" by Angelo del Boca, and people like Preziosi were as evil as Himmler): unfortunately often Anglo-Saxons love to see the world with black-or-white glasses :-) but reality is always more complex. About De Felice, he has been attacked by the left, because in the seventies he - a former communist - was the first one who dared to challenge the "official history of Fascism" given by the PCI, but now he is considered as the most important Italian historian about fascism and the most important biographer of Mussolini worldwide. In don't think that anyone who attacked him read a single page of his "Mussolini": the figure of the dictator comes out annihilated by this biography, but this occurs telling his history, not doing propaganda. Ciao and keep the good work, Alex2006 (talk) 18:12, 12 August 2013 (UTC)
- Yep, I'm more or less aware of what you said (especially on De Felice), but not being myself an expert I'm always unsure of what to think about all of this. I've heard about Italiani brava gente, it's a while I want to put my hands on it. I invite you again to help filling in this article. Ciao e stammi bene, grazie dell'input! :) -- cyclopiaspeak! 18:30, 12 August 2013 (UTC)
- Grazie a te e saluti da Roma! Alex2006 (talk) 06:41, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
- Yep, I'm more or less aware of what you said (especially on De Felice), but not being myself an expert I'm always unsure of what to think about all of this. I've heard about Italiani brava gente, it's a while I want to put my hands on it. I invite you again to help filling in this article. Ciao e stammi bene, grazie dell'input! :) -- cyclopiaspeak! 18:30, 12 August 2013 (UTC)
- Unfortunately this is a very "hot" subject: 20 years ago Italians were described as brava gente, nowadays as evil as the Nazi. Both views are partially true (about Italian war crimes you can read for example "Italiani brava gente?" by Angelo del Boca, and people like Preziosi were as evil as Himmler): unfortunately often Anglo-Saxons love to see the world with black-or-white glasses :-) but reality is always more complex. About De Felice, he has been attacked by the left, because in the seventies he - a former communist - was the first one who dared to challenge the "official history of Fascism" given by the PCI, but now he is considered as the most important Italian historian about fascism and the most important biographer of Mussolini worldwide. In don't think that anyone who attacked him read a single page of his "Mussolini": the figure of the dictator comes out annihilated by this biography, but this occurs telling his history, not doing propaganda. Ciao and keep the good work, Alex2006 (talk) 18:12, 12 August 2013 (UTC)
- That's a very good point, I acknowledge I am not as acquainted with the subject. Given that the quote is not essential, I can leave it out. That said, I suppose it is extremly hard to disentangle the various views of historicians on these subjects, and I wouldn't go ahead to say who is partial and who is not (De Felice, while extremly respected, has also been criticized a lot, as far as I know). I am working now with what I'm finding online but once at home for the summer holidays, I'll go through my mother's bookshelves -she is an history teacher and has a huge library, including De Felice books. Meanwhile, if you have trustworthy sources with stuff to add, by all means please add. -- cyclopiaspeak! 16:43, 12 August 2013 (UTC)
- Hallo Cyclopia, no, I explained myself wrongly: I am interested in knowing if there is a note in the book which refers to this term. The reason is the following: some months ago I started to read a book about this subject by an author cited here, Aaron Gillette. Unfortunately for him, a couple of years ago I have been reading the "Storia degli ebrei italiani sotto il fascismo" by De Felice, and I found out that Gillette had "forgotten" about 50% of the info about a particular subject (the alleged antisemitism of the young Mussolini) in order to demonstrate that he was antisemitic during the war years. This partiality has been confirmed by an interview to a French historian which I found on the web,where he is defined "extremely partial". That's why after that I mistrust these sources. Since I see that you are Italian, I advise you warmly to read the book of De Felice, who could as first use the Archive of the Jewish community in Rome. This book was commissioned (and praised) by the Unione delle comunità israelitiche italiane. De Felice was an historian, and this means - among others - that if he cites something, he tells always in a note where he found it. This I wanted to know from you. I read maybe hundred Italian books about fascism, including primary sources like the diaries of Ciano and Bottai, and I never heard this expression, while I read quite often another one: alloglotti, which means "alien speakers": so were defined the minorities by the fascists, who never could think to define "Alien foreigner" an Italian citizen. For the fascists, someone born and living in the kingdom was Italian, independently from language and custom, period. Defining him/her as a "foreigner" would have been the worst "autogoal" for them. I suspect that these authors mixed up one word for another. Ciao, Alex2006 (talk) 16:38, 12 August 2013 (UTC)