Talk:Silvio Berlusconi

Gianfranco, pretty all the sources I can find indicate Berlusconi is the wealthiest man in Italy, Consider this from the Forbes site: http://www.forbes.com/static_html/bill/2002/print/rank.html which puts him at 600 million more than the next Italian. In addition The Economist regularly refers to him as the richest Italian.

Dear Mark, Gianni Agnelli ("Mr. Fiat" - #180 in the list of the page you indicated), together with the members of his family, owns litterally thousands of companies that in turn own houses, cars, boats, helicopters, planes, shops, factories and really any other valuable good, all recorded as separate property of each company, in 5 Continents on 5; maybe then that Forbes cannot consider him the wealthiest man in Italy, because it records only official personal incomes the way they are declared to tax office. But I would wait a minute before considering he's poorer than our homo novus or than other folks there listed.

This kind of datum, the official declaration to tax office (this is a general rule), would not be a concrete indication in our country, since we are usually very... "shy" about our incomes ;-)))

So, my deep esteem for the two papers you mentioned remains unaltered, but I can tell you that I cannot assume those data as effectively describing italian positions on more than a "partial", perhaps formal aspect.

As a common practice, here we evaluate a patrimony upon the number of companies that belong to or are otherwise controlled by the main holder company, up to fourth grade and yes, we do this way because we know that our tax office will not be receiving the veritable truth about our money, but perhaps... a more pleasant interpretations of economical facts.

Moreover: the same tax administration uses similar indexes and effectively does not take into the least account what personally one declares. An alternative index is number of employees or involved workers. Fiat in Italy is a state within the state.

Mr. Del Vecchio, with only a dozen relevant companies, is indeed very high in that ranking, but it is quite difficult to consider that his groups is more important than Benetton's and that respective personal fortunes are not proportionally in a different sequence.

So, you'll have noticed that I didn't say who was the wealthiest one; I just said that Berlusconi is, for sure, one among them. Any italian could not proof it, but would immediately tell you. :-)))

BTW, the owner of one of most important european car factories, declared to tax office that he only owns 12 Fiat "Fiorino" pick-ups (see [1]) for the staff gardening in his villa. He says he has no other cars but 12 Fiorinos. Funny people these italian tycoons, one of these days I'll have to become one, I like pick-ups!

Seriously, I would perhaps keep the note on a more general tone, despite the not discussed prestige of sources. We are dealing with some data that are not enough "scientific" to describe a precise scheme the way we are used to read here.

Ciao --Gianfranco

I have changed the article a little to state this in terms of the source, i.e. forbes. You're right in that it's impossible to get an accurate net worth of these people. I'm sure all of these men you mention spend a considerable amount of time understating the value of these assets! I enjoyed reading your note! -- Dze27

This page doesn't appair impartial

I'm not a partisan of Forza Italia and Mr. Silvio Berlusconi but, as an italian, I feel myself offended by the PARTISAN way the biography of the Italian prime minister is presented. The extensor of this page must remember that Mr. Berlusconi has been democratically elected by the majority of italians and furthermore that the allegations he's facing haven't been proved yet.

Regards, Mario_

If it contains any information that is incorrect, you can move it here to Talk. If it's unbalanced, you can add more material presenting his positive attributes. ( 08:26, 16 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Removed the following recently added statement which is pure POV. ( 12:23, 21 Jan 2004 (UTC)

"Berlusconi is still very much locked into the cold war ideology, and anybody who is against him is branded as a communist. Many consider this rather ironic given that his legislation whould not look out of place in Orwellian novels such as 1984 and Animal farm."

This page doesn't appair impartial

The text is not impartial in how much filler in wide and complete way the critic made from the opposition party to the first minister. Not filler absoluty the government activity. In a document of wikipedia he is fundamental to balance the two aspects.

Regards, Adriano

This page is getting more and more unbalanced

I suggest to remove this page completly as it's clear it is edited only by partisans anti-Berlusconi.

They are also very ignorant as they don't know that the laws in Italy are always approved by the Parliament and not imposed by the Government.

Mario__

Mario, we've got several people on here who agree with you, including myself. I don't know enough about Italian politics to write it though. So give it a fix. Start from scratch if you want. Good luck! Stargoat 13:22, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC)

the last two sections were done before extensive editing. I think they should be treated as completed unless they are renewed with more specific comments Azikala 16:49, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Looks factually based to me

I for one am in disagreement. All the circumstances quoted in the criticism section have factual basis (sometimes video evidence, viz. the Schulz incident). Concerned parties can insert equally factually based positives about Mr. Berlusconi's tenure (assuming they can find them).

I must also note that the the concept that the Italian Government "imposes" lagislation is nowhere to be found in the article text (which actually uses words such as "presented" and "pushed through").

Alien_Life_form July 7, 2004

Correct, but please look the Page History and check the content of the article before my post in this discussion page. For instance Revision as of 01.37, 4 Jun 2004 the phrase ' the Italian Parliament' was replaced by 'his government majority'. Consider also the tenor of the other statements that were introduced before the page was reverted as considered POV.

Again, one thing is a fair political debate in which everyone can tell his own opinion, something else is the acrimony against a political 'enemy'. I don't like Mr.Berlusconi very much but I respect the vote of my fellow citizens.

And I like democracy. I hope that the (anonymous) Berlusconi's criticizers like it as well.

Regards, Mario_

Marius 19:05, 7 Jul 2004

I am also in favour of democracy, I am not anonymous, but I have had comments deleted by anonymous persons:-) Berlusconi **is** a very contrversial person, and he puts a lot of effort into promoting his image, it is all part of his style. It would be evidently wrong to ignore this controversy, just as it would be wrong to say that any critisism of him is partisan. It would be POV to say that his economic policy has flopped without adding in the figures to back it up, but it is not POV to highlight eg. his long legal battles which started before his entry into politics, they are simple facts whose dates back themselves up.

At the end of the day Democracy depends on free speech, and much critiscism of Berlusconi revolves around the fact that he appears to have forgoton this. I think the editing of this page represents Berlusconis approach to the press and media in general, any critisicm is partisan and biased and therefore should be eliminated. In a democracy the plethora should be able to see all, and decide themselves what to believe. Only blatent lies and abuse should be tackled. Perhaps the same should be true of this page.

To be clarified

Berlusconi’s brother ad some managers of his television’s crimes of curruption where instead validated.

I read this sentence as I was making my first attempt at making the new "opposite view" secions more NPOV and could not correct it or erase it since I could not understand exactely what it was meant to say. Can anyone give me a hypothetical rewrite of this sentence? Also, don't you think that the title "Another point of view" is, in itself, contradictory since it is meant to give the article a NEUTRAL point of view, and not the views of the two partisan sides? Should we not merge the "Criticism" and "Another point of view" sections and make it a balanced look at the public opinion about the said character? Thanks for your input. --Liberlogos 03:33, 9 Jul 2004 (UTC)

His official tax returns declare far less

this appears to be a misunderstanding. His tax returns declare 9-12 million income depending on the year according to what I've found on the internet. This is not related to his fixed assets of $10 Billion. Unless I can find a thing to back this up or someone else can provide it I plan to delete this statement.

deleted

private TV network (Fininvest, now Mediaset)

According to internet sources, Finivest is his investment company and still exists. This statement may be wrong. I don't know exact details so I won't delete it yet.

fixed Azikala 16:49, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)

The Casa delle Libertà was routed in the 2003 local elections

Should probably read something like, alongside many other governments in Europe, Casa delle Libertà has done badly in the recent elections, first the local and then European elections. "Forza Italia", however has had such a very marked reduction in support to below 20% which has lead to it's loss of position in the coalition.

fixed Azikala 16:49, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)

In the meantime a series of problems in the running of the state television channels

is completely non specific and should state what it means by "problems" (the orignal word was "hiccups")

deleted, since I couldn't find a good specific reference.Azikala 16:49, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Some speculate that this is a reason for attacks by journalists allegedly close to such parties.

who alledges that the journalists are close to the Communists? What "attacks" have they made

partly balanced out by reference also to right wing press. still needs specifics, but at least it isn't terribly POV.

Azikala 23:58, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Disappointing Page

By long custom, of course, I don't edit, but having recently returned from Italy, and eager to learn more about the country, I turned to this page to learn about Silvio Berlusconi, and I must confess that I found it most disappointing. I was neither a Berlusconi supporter or opponent before I read this piece, and I found myself most thoroughly unenlightened by the article in its present form.

There are a handful of essentials that one seeks to learn about any political leader, and this article does a terrible job on all of them except, as I say, on the legal irregularities of various kinds. I do not know, after reading the article, what Berlusconi's policies actually are. I do understand that he is more or less "center right", but this is too vague. I do not know, after reading the article, what his supporters (apparently a majority of Italians, if just barely, at the time of his election) might say about him. What do people like about him? What does he represent to them, what appeal did he have that his opponents did not?

Additionaly, some of the commentary is just transparently biased. "His government has presented a new legislation for a reform of the media, but this actually increased the percentage share that an individual was allowed to control..." I do not know the details of this legisluation, but notice the inherent presupposition that a reform would automatically involve ownership limits.

Notice that since I and many other people believe that the freedom of speech, including the freedom to publish newspapers to as many people who are willing to buy them, the freedom to broadcast television programs to as many people who will watch them, automatically implies that ownership limits are a grave human rights violation.

You need not agree with me on this. Your own view may be that freedom of speech is best guaranteed when people are not allowed to speak too much, or to too many people. Or that freedom of speech is best guaranteed when the government uses force to take money from some people to give it to others in order to promote points of view that would not have been voluntarily supported in the first place.

But what is necessary, for NPOV, is that Wikipedia articles in themselves take neither political position at all. We need to both be able to read the article and understand the facts on the ground, without the implied and presupposed political analysis. Jimbo Wales 21:59, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Disappointing - but extremely hard to write

In fact, one of the reasons that make this page rather uninformative is that any public statement about Mr. B. or his tenure appears to turn instantaneously in a partisan row. Avoiding this requires an amount of careful tiptoeing such as to eventually bowdlerize anything that can be said about the man. Please note that avoiding partisan clashes often requires the omission of very well known facts.

Point in case: the current version of the page states that no evidence exists linking Mr. B. to the removal of some well known journalists from national television. What it does not say, however, is that Mr B. very publicly stated that these journalists were biased and should have been taken off the air, and did - equally publicly - express his satisfaction when said removal did in fact happen. All this is factual and readily verifiable, but I have no doubt that would spark an outcry if it were to be inserted in the article.

Anther proof of the problems of this page is your statement:

" ...but notice the inherent presupposition that a reform would automatically involve ownership limits..."

Unless one is very informed on the italian situation he or she would be hard pressed to understand that:

o) Media reform in Italy for the last 10 years or so actually revolves around antitrust issues, because more than 90% of the airwaves ownership is split among state controlled media and the Mediaset group (controlled by Mr. Berluisconi and his family). Antitrust regulation *everywhere* involves ownership limits.

o) Because of the very special position of Mr. B. - who is at the same time owner of the major private media group, and prime minister with a huge saying on what goes on at state television level - the issue also touches heavily on what is called "his conflict of interests", which - by general consensus - has no equals in contemporary western democracies.

o) The law itself comes on the heels of a number of court orders (including one from Italy's supreme court) that mandate one of Mr. Berlusconi's televisions to become a satellite broadcast and awards its current frequencies to another (private) television which - according to the courts - should have won that same frequency from the beginning. The law that the government proposed very conveniently overrides all these court orders, keeps the threatened television on the air, all the while not redressing the original plaintiff.

You see the problem here: all the circumstances I stated above are factual enough and would require very scant commentary, at least from my perspective. A lot of Italians though, will feel that what above is partisan for failing to state some mitigating circumstance - for instance, that the law mentions future expansions of the media offering that would dilute and change the current situation.

This is a totally insane situation that removes any chance of being perceived unbiased and informative about the whole issue (reason for which I refrain to edit)

But a differing point of view is that this article,taken together with its commentary, is in fact extremely informative on the state - and quality - of the Italian discourse about Mr. Berlusconi, for which I feel the man - never shy about being a divisive character - bears a good share of resposibility.

Alessandro

Different ways of dealing

In my opinion the biography of an influent political man inside an Encyclopaedia CAN, and, more then that, MUST, quote also judicial proceedings the politician is subjected to, provided that they are given the appropriate weight in the general context of the article.

In this case the whole Berlusconi's career seems to pivot just around trials and allegations, thus painting the article with an an unmistakable partisan color.

Please look the different way this issue is handled in articles concerning other politicians who had minor or major judicial involvments too (in Italy a could quote Giulio Andreotti, but you have only the embarassment of choosing all around the world).

As a matter of fact the debate around the balance between political and judicial powers is a critical (and very important) issue in the modern democracies, and the issue of the conflict of interests is important as well.

Very often these issues are used as political 'weapons of mass destruction' in political contests: this is perfectly legitimate (in my opinion) but an article of an Encyclopaedia doesn't seem to me the most appropriate place for them.

As far as it concerns the Berlusconi-the-man personal character I think that, beeing italian voters more than 18 years old, they're able to develop an opinion without beeing plagiarized by some TV-spots.

My personal idea is that Mr.Berlusconi has a fighting and rash character, with the indisputable merit of beeing able to let himself understood by his audience: this is not little in a country where politicians usually speek using an alien language.

By the way: I'm not 'berlusconian'.

Marius 13:31, 19 Jul 2004

NPOV again

This article is now considerably changed from some time ago. Can someone point out any specific NPOV problems? I think it's now at the level where critics of the page have to be quite specific about what is wrong if they want to sustain the POV argument. I don't think it's completely brilliant yet, but at least what is missing (some policy aspects) is now clear. So guys what's wrong with it now?Azikala 16:49, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)

My post dated 19 Jul is prior to the last edit. I agree that the article is now more balanced and more informative, even if, in my opinion, the emphasis given to the legal investigations is still excessive, particularly if compared with articles of other politicians. Marius 06:11, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for that.. It seems that work on this article was worthwhile. Some sections are still marked as stubs (his policy section, for example). If these are expanded then the Legal section will shrink relatively and you will be happier. I will remove the NPOV notice tonight some time after 1800 UTC today (barrning other comments) Azikala 06:57, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Vandalism and propaganda

To protect the article from frequents attacks I propose to allow editing only to Wiki administrators and move proposals of modifications to this discussion page (like italian version)

W.R.

I don't see the vandalism. Current picture is a recent (2004-08-15) picture of Silvio Berlusconi, taken in a public place and with Berlusconi's permission. Surely better than a 15 year old picture that was more opera of photoshop than of a camera. Not so different from this picture http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Bushaircraft.jpg used in Bush article.

G.P.

I leave to Wikipedia responsibles the judgment whether your real goal in editing is information or propaganda. Only notice that all targets of your attentions are right-wing politicians. I think you're abusing the ospitality of a respected web site to make propaganda.

W.R.

targets? this is paranoia, I just reverted to the picture someone inserted tuesday.

G.P.

This is a small, good test to check if the majority of Wikipedians want that Wikipedia remains an independent source of culture or changes into a stage for leftist ideologists.

W.R.

he was right, this is paranoia. did you ever consider calling a good physician?

Francesco S.

W.R. you call test all in your own? The only way to keep wikipedia indipendent is discussing and contributing. Make your point and try to convince others instead of invoking special measures when not required.

Also in my opinion the locking of the page in the italian wiki is a defeat, and, as I argued there, i strongly oppose going that way unless there's a really unmanageable situation. Worths noting that english version is by far more balanced and informative. --Balubino 17:21, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)

100% right, Balubino. But watch the page history: sometime it seemed unmanageable and frustrating. I'm glad I was wrong. Bye.

Satirical edits

Yesterday Mr.Berlusconi's portrait has been replaced by a photo of himself and Mrs. Cherie Blair during a summer party.
Ok, political satire is always welcome in democracy, but what has that got to do with an Encyclopaedia?
Personally I like funny-dressed politicians more than thieving and/or tiresome ones anyway. Marius 06:57, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Little sample of POV

In one of latest edits in the "Policy" section the phrase:

... Northern League are strongly anti illegal immigration ....

was changed into:

... Northern League are strongly anti-immigration ....

(Northern League is one of the parties of the government coalition).
Whoever knows italian politics knows also that the official position of this party is not against immigration "in itself" (which responsible party in which part of the world can be so?) but against the way this issue was handled in the past. Of course maybe that some (I think ignorant and low-level) members of this party would like to build a wall all-around Italy, but the point is that to present this as the line of the whole party is pure misinformation, in my opinion, the try to cast a prejudicial negative shadow onto the actual government, whenever it's possible. A further evidence of this is that one of the extensor of the Bossi-Fini law (Umberto Bossi) is the leader of Northern League itself. The Bossi-Fini law doesn't want to abolish the immigration but to regulate it (maybe in a wrong and too strict way, and that's the reason why now the law will be probably modified).
By the way my personal opinion is that immigrants are a fundamental resource for Italy and that one of a civil country's main duty is to integrate them.

Marius 22:02, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Trials added

In the "Legal investigations" section I added data on trials completed and in progress. I think the legal terms are correct but I would like a confirmation by some english user law-aware :) Kormoran 22:09, 8 Sep 2004 (UTC)