Talk:Buddha-nature

Buddha Nature page

Copied from User talk:Joshua Jonathan#Buddha Nature page
Shouldn't you organize the page into sutric Buddha Nature (for example the Tathāgatagarbha sūtras) and tantric Buddha Nature (for example Mahamudra)? There are 2 Buddha Natures.VictoriaGrayson (talk) 01:32, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Oh my. You may be right, I don't know. Have you got a few sources or links, so I can read more? Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 07:34, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

There are many books that indicate there is a division between sutra and tantra in general.VictoriaGrayson (talk) 20:27, 9 July 2014 (UTC)

Philip Kapleau as a source

Copied from User talk:Joshua Jonathan#Philip Kapleau as a source
Hi! I noticed that the Three pillars of Zen by Philip Kapleau is being used as a source at Buddha-nature. I was wondering, how reliable account about Hakuun Yasutani's life the book really is, taking into consideration that Philip Kapleau never received a Dharma transmission and wasn't later even acknowledged by the Sanbo Kyodan school? For example it is said that (Sharf, Robert H. (1995-C), "Sanbokyodan. Zen and the Way of the New Religions", Japanese Journal of Religious Studies 1995 22/3-4)[1]:

Nevertheless, the dangers of defection and schism were not unknown, for just three years prior to Yasutani’s retirement his American disciple, Philip Kapleau, led his own af³liate group to secede from the Sanbõkyõdan. Kapleau’s training was, by Sanbõkyõdan standards, quite rigorous. As mentioned above, he spent almost three years (1953–1956) in the Hosshin-ji sõdõ under Harada prior to his training under Yasutani. He remained with Yasutani for about ten years, serving as translator in dokusan for Yasutani’s foreign students. He returned to America in 1965 and established a Zen Center in Rochester, New York, that was one of the first of its kind in America. Kapleau quickly set about adapting Yasutani’s Zen to the American scene: students wore Western dress and used English chants in the zendõ, they were given Western-sounding Buddhist names at ordinations, and they modified ceremonies and rituals to “accord with our Western traditions” (KAPLEAU 1979, p. 269). Apparently Kapleau took the Zen rhetoric he had been taught quite literally: he considered the outward forms of Zen mere upãya, to be modified in accord with the needs and abilities of his students. As long as he remained true to the experiential essence of Zen, the outward “cultural forms” were of little consequence. Yasutani, however, objected strongly to some of the reforms, notably to the use of an English translation of the Heart Sðtra in the zendõ. These and other factors led to a serious falling-out, and in 1967 Kapleau formally ended his relationship with Yasutani."

The assertions get even more severe, as we can see from here:

David Scates, an ex-student of the Rochester Zen Center, wrote to Yamada asking about Kapleau’s credentials. Yamada’s reply, dated 16 January 1986, included a blunt public statement to the effect that Kapleau never finished his kõans and never received inka. This was accompanied by a long letter to Scates that detailed Kapleau’s inadequacies and lack of training, and even hinted that Kapleau may be guilty of fraud (Yamada suggests that Kapleau might be proffering a precept or kenshõ certificate as a document of transmission; since Kapleau’s Western students know no Japanese, they supposedly would not know the difference)e

The most critical blow against Kapleau, however, can be found here (Lachs, Stuart (2006 / 2008), "The Zen Master in America: Dressing the Donkey with Bells and Scarves", Annual Meeting of the American Academy of Religion, Washington D.C., Nov. 18, 2006 / The International Association of Buddhist Studies Congress, Emory University, Atlanta, Georgia, June 24, 2008)[2]:

In 1997 Ji’un Kubota roshi, Yamada’s successor as head of the Sanbokyodan sect, answered an enquiry from a Polish Zen group asking about Kapleau’s credentials. He replied that Kapleau did not finish his training, claiming that Kapleau’s fame for the Three Pillars of Zen was undeserved because he [Kubota] and Yamada roshi had translated “all” of the work in the book. He added that Kapleau “was not able to read Japanese” and only made their translation “more understandable” to native English readers. He remarked that Kapleau was arrogant and proud and that he treated Yasutani “abusively and impolitely.” He then proclaimed, “He [Kapleau] is no more a Zen man. His teaching is no more Buddhist Zen but only his own philosophy.”

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What do you think? =P Jayaguru-Shishya (talk) 14:09, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Hi Jayaguru-Shishya. Thanks for your feedback; I appreciate your command of sources. Funny thing is, I think that Kubota's commentary underscores the reliability of the reference. The info on the ninth consciousness is in the notes-section, where a scheme is given of the eight or nine consciousnesses, based on a scheme by Haradi. The ninth consciousness is called there "Pure Consciousness" and "Formless Self" (the same term Hisamatsu and Jeff Shore use). Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 19:07, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Hi Joshua Jonathan, and thanks for your answer! May I ask you still further, why do you think that Kubota's commentary (according to Lachs) actually underscores the reliability of the reference? =P

Those concepts of "Pure Consciousness" and "Formless Self" are referring to the very Kapleau's book under consideration here. Jayaguru-Shishya (talk) 19:49, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Well, if it was actually written by Kubota and Yamada, then (I guess) this idea of a ninth consciousness is supported by them, isn't it? Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 19:55, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

The sources were written by Kapleau and Lachs, and Kapleau's reliability as a source is under question here. The "ninth consciousness", "Pure Consciousness" and "Formless Self", I couldn't find them from either Kapleau or Lachs, can you please specify the source? =P Still, I'd like keep on top whether Kapleau is actually a really nice source or not? xp Jayaguru-Shishya (talk) 20:24, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

In the 2013-version it's at page 400; the link is from Holland, so maybe restricted in your part of the world (Ha! Risk! "Attacking Ontario with ten armies"). I tend to thrust Kapleau as a source, but that's my personal preference. So maybe some other voice here? But the point here is: the Lanka's equation of alaija-vijnana and tathāgatagarbha apparently is not supported throughout the (east-Asian) Buddhist tradition. Kapleau's note makes sense in this. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 05:14, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

Oh, by the way... Do you have any idea how to edit a table like this: Hakuun Yasutani#Influence? =P Thanks! Jayaguru-Shishya (talk) 15:01, 5 July 2014 (UTC)

I sure do; I created it ;) Template:Zen Lineage Hakuun Yasutani. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 15:59, 5 July 2014 (UTC)

Hohoho! :D Anyway, I think that chart needs a little bit clarification: at the moment there are dharma heirs and mere teachers all mixed up. For example, Philip Kapleau is placed right below Hakuun Yasutani without any distinction, even Kapleau wasn't a dharma heir of Yasutani. I think the table as such gives a wrong picture that Kapleau would be part of a true Harada-Yasutani lineage with his own heirs and all. =P Jayaguru-Shishya (talk) 18:58, 5 July 2014 (UTC)

Critical Buddhism

The article makes this statement about Critical Buddhism:

"This view of the Buddha-nature as non-Buddhist is termed Critical Buddhism."

To me, this sounds as if Critical Buddhism is defined as a disbelief in Buddha-nature. But Critical Buddhism seems to be more about the method of being critical.
I am not sure whether criticism of the concept of Buddha-nature can be labeled as a school of thought. E.g. there are many Theravada scholars who criticize Buddha nature as a) a later development/invention and not part of Gautama Buddha's teachings b) a hindrance to the path. Maybe a section "Criticism" would be more suitable, though I am not familiar with the work of Matsumoto Shiro and Hakamaya Noriaki. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kathedra87 (talk • contribs) 07:37, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

I've rephrased the sentence, and moved it forward. I hope it's better now. Best regards, Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 09:30, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

Buddha-Nature as Potential AND Essence

Hello Joshua Jonathan. I see you deleted my amendment to the subsection on Buddha-Nature as potential. This is not justified. In fact, it is erroneous to state (as the article currently does) that the original idea was of a potential for Buddhahood, which then developed into an ontological notion. From the very start in the Mahaparinirvana Sutra (which is the first sutra to use the term 'Buddha-Nature' (Buddha Dhatu)), and in the Tathagatagarbha Sutra, the idea is of a real, substantial essence within each being (see Professor Zimmermann on this - a world expert on the TG Sutra), which precicely vouchsafes to that being the potential to fully realise his own indwelling Buddhahood. Buddhahood is possible of realisation because it is already present within! Also - and this is a key point - the Buddha Nature sutras themselves never stress or even seriously discuss the alleged idea of a 'growing Buddhahood' or developing Buddhahood. That is entirely alien to the main thrust and purport of the Buddha-nature notion as articulated in the base sutric texts. The image of the Buddha Embryo is to be understood as a perfect Buddha hidden deep within the being, invisible to normal sight - just as the Buddha was perfectly present in miniature inside the womb of his mother before being physically born on earth. Tathagatagarbha thus means an interior or deeply internally concealed Buddha - NOT a growing, mutating foetus. The former notion was the clear teaching of the primary and seminal Buddha-nature sutras (including the Angulimaliya Sutra), not the latter notion (which has been grafted onto the primal texts by much-later commentators without any real evidence in support of it). So if we want a fair subsection title for that particular section, it should include both aspects - Buddha-nature as essence, and as potency. That is balanced - and reasonable (after all, the section contains quotes supporting both notions, of essence and potentiality). We must present both ideas in the subheading. Otherwise it is out of kilter and flies in the face of what those first Buddha-nature sutras actually state. I therefore have amended the subtitle accordingly. Best wishes to you. From Suddha (talk) 11:13, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

Very nice re-formulation. Best to you too, Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 11:54, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

• Thank you very much, Joshua Jonathan, for formatting the quote I found and for adding the relevant reference. That was kind of you - and is appreciated. Warm wishes - from Suddha (talk) 12:21, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

This article shouldn't be organized by tradition. It should be organized by classes of literature, i.e. nikayas, Mahayana sutras and Vajrayana tantras.VictoriaGrayson (talk) 16:07, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

Merger proposal: Ātman (Buddhism)

From Ātman (Buddhism): "This doctrine, also known as Tathāgatagarbha". Says it all: duplicate. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 06:23, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

Oppose I do not support this proposed merger. It is perfectly appropriate to have a separate article on the diverse views of Atman within Buddhism. It is a highly important topic, and a contested one, and deserves its own entry. Of course there will be overlaps - that is inevitable; but that does not justify a merger, in my opinion. It seems to me that there could in fact be an agenda being played out here to downplay, minimise and even delete much of a whole important strand of Buddhist tradition which has a more positive, affirmative approach towards Atman (or its equivalents) within Buddhism. That positive approach to Atman or Svabhava is NOT merely Chinese, as has erroneously been stated on Wikipedia: it also embraces some of the Tibetan schools, some Thai traditions, some Korean schools, some Japanese schools, as well as some Indian texts (sutras, above all); indeed, one of the largest early Indian schools of Buddhism -that of the pudgalavadins - had a different, more affirmative take on the idea of personhood from what is constantly pushed these days as Buddhist orthodoxy. As even Prof. Paul Williams (himself formerly a Gelugpa-oriented Buddhist - so no natural enthusiast for essentialist doctrines) has said, we should not simplistically identify Buddhism with a 'non-Self' definition. Buddhism is far more than that, and far more diverse in the plurality of its gateways into Dharma.

Anyhow, the only way I would support a merger of Atman (Buddhism) with Buddha Nature is if the whole of Atman (Buddhism) - which, incidentally, contains a certain amount of material which I personally disagree with - is simply appended to Buddha Nature without any major disruptions to the existing content of Atman (Buddhism). Knowing some of the people operating within Wiki-Buddhism -I must say that this is unlikely to happen! Therefore I vote to keep Atman (Buddhism) where it is - unmolested! Best wishes to all. From Suddha (talk) 07:01, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

Comment: Hey Suddha, no agenda, but "developing insight" on Buddha-nature. Inportant indeed, but this article overlaps with Buddha-nature. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 14:15, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

Support Complete overlap. Suddha, based on your edits and comments you believe Tibetan schools such as Jonang are based on Tathāgatagarbha Sutras, when actually their doctrine is based on the Kalachakra tantra. There is a complete lack of awareness that there are 2 different Buddha Natures.VictoriaGrayson (talk) 15:48, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

• Actually, Dolpopa - one of the most significant and erudite figures in all of Jonang history - draws heavily and repeatedly upon the tathagatagarbha sutras - especially the Mahaparinirvana Sutra - in his major commentarial writings. Of course I am aware of different views and formulations of Buddha-Nature - but I also know what Dolpopa taught and which sources he used to buttress his arguments. The Kalachakra Tantra is by no means the overwhelming reference-point within Dolpopa's shentong explications of the Dharma. In fact, in his central Buddha-Nature analytical compendium, Mountain Dharma, he references the Mahaparinirvana Sutra more frequently than he does the Kalachakra Tantra. Best wishes to you. From Suddha (talk) 01:11, 19 July 2014 (UTC)