User talk:IP Address

Mustaine

BTW, if you revert again, you would have broken WP:3RR and may be blocked for 24 hours. Please find a reliable source that explicitly says he is Welsh. Mad Jack 23:14, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Talk:List_of_Welsh_Americans#Talk:Dave_Mustaine.23User:Jack_O.27Lantern

(I notice how you gloat, with hypocrisy and libel)

Mustaine says his family motto is that of Mostyn. Mostyn is Welsh. That is like Bill O'Reilly saying his family badge is (whatever it is of the O'Reilly clan of Cavan), without explicitly stating he is Irish. Look up Clan O'Reilly; it turns out they come from Ulster. In identical fashion; look up Mostyn. Oh, golly gee whiz! Mostyn is a family name from North Wales; Flintshire to be exact. What do you know! That's exactly how people learn! You should not obstruct the Wikipedia community with your false charges and libel. IP Address 23:47, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

It's not relevant where the name Mustaine comes from. If you have a source that Dave Mutaine is a Welsh-American, please provide it here and I will add it to the articles myself. But you can't go around deducing "what" he is from sources that don't actually say he is Welsh. Mad Jack 23:52, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, the family crest Mustaine claims is his, states his family comes from Wales. Why do you have a problem with that source, when there are so numerous identifications of people in this manner or similar? Do you want a family Bible, or are you an atheist and have a problem with that cite as well? What's wrong with Dave's ownership of his family crest, which researchers (unaffiliated with me) have identified as originating in Wales? You don't trust that website? It's rather unbiased. You don't trust Dave's statements made in the interview, or the website posting his interview? You just have a personal problem with me. If I had that website cited in the first place, you would not be acting like this now. Even ElKevbo felt that way, until I made a comment about him. So, it is personal for you now. I realize it wasn't before. Man, chill out. There's no original research done here, just an interested editor who likes to put out good faith edits and not be insulted by those who choose which sources to accept on a whim such as disliking the messenger. Go ahead and kill the messenger; you've already managed to shut me up by crafting the situation as if you did nothing wrong. You never took the time to look at the data for what it was, just shifted your gaze onto me. Now, you tell me "tough". I'm not buying your bullshit and you haven't listend to ElKevbo's suggestions either. IP Address 00:00, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

No, what is needed is a source that says Dave Mutaine is a Welsh-American or Welsh. It doesn't matter what his last name is or where it comes from. That's the original research bit. You can not go around deducing that someone is Irish-American because their last name is O'Reilly, or that they are Jewish because their last name is Cohen. You need a source specifically on the topic in question - i.e. Dave Mustaine - that says exactly what you want to say in the article. Not anything close or sort of similar, but the exact thing. It's 100% or nothing on Wikipedia. No deductions of our own. We are just drones passing the information along. Mad Jack 00:04, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

You have to cool down. Listen to ElKevbo. All that needs doing is a rephrase of the tidbit of what we know on his background, like this version: "Dave Mustaine has claimed the Mostyn family crest as his own, which he includes in his song "Shadow of Deth" and discusses in an interview with a Greek reporter. Ancestry.com, the University of Oxford and House of Names identify Mostyn as a Welsh family. Dave Mustaine says he was raised a Jehovah's Witness and that his mother was of the Jewish religion, but that he is a born-again Christian as an adult." This is a common way of editing on the Wikipedia, without 'jumping to conclusions of original research', which is left for the reader to determine. Why is it so important to not say what one sees right in front of himself, as you try to force me to do? I would have to leave the edit just like what is written above, instead of directly state or categorize that Dave is Welsh-American. By the way, I have traditionally been apathetic and even hostile about Welsh people (especially Welsh nationalists and Arthurian mystical supremacists)--but the revelation of Mustaine's heritage has softened my perception of Welshmen. Mustaine just happens to be my favourite metal artist, who I respect for his views. I respect his view that he is Welsh; you do not. You are being a stick in the mud and it is unjustified. When I thought Mustaine was French, that was unsourced. Now, I actually have a few sources that delineate his Mostyn background in Wales--even Domesday Book info about Mostyn and that part of Wales I never heard of, except through a statement that Dave Mustaine himself said. Dave Mustaine opened a metaphorical can of worms, or at least a pot of gold as I see it. IP Address 00:22, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I see where you have used mocking language in edit summaries apart from dealing with myself: just one example; I may be forced to find more of this BS if you continue to attack my good faith edits So, you indeed have a history of being pushy with those who contradict your preferences? IP Address 00:39, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Here, you have stated that your perception of ethnic heritage is true and called other perceptions false: Wikipedia_talk:No_original_research#Ethnicity_inclusions. You do not understand the concept of WP:NPOV, which I have told you and yet you never addressed the issue--all you want to do is control other people's edits to fit your self-centred POV. Do not disrupt Wikipedia to make a point! (WP:POINT) Assume good faith! (WP:AGF) Ignore all rules! (WP:IAR) IP Address 00:45, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Here, you have chosen sides...even though there are conflicting sources, as discussed on the talk page: [1] IP Address 00:52, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I have no POV or perceptions except those reported by reputable sources. If you have a source that says Mustaine is a Welsh-American, you may call him that! Regardless of what I think about Mustaine (which is nothing, because I don't know or care who he is or what his ethnicity is). If you don't, you simply may not. Wikipedia isn't a debate society. We are messengers who report the message from reputable sources exactly as sent. We do not twist the message to say what we would like to be true. "Ancestry.com, the University of Oxford and House of Names identify Mostyn as a Welsh family" is completely OR. This has never been stated directly relating to Dave Mustaine. That's your problem here. You can not connect 1 and 2 to form 3. That is explicitly forbidden by NOR. The Ancestry.com bit would be relevant to an article on the last name "Mostyn", but you can not join it to an article about Dave Mustaine himself (unless of course a reputable source has done specifically that). If you have a source that his father was a Jehovah's Witness and his mother was Jewish, which it seems you do, you may certainly put that in his article. You may not call Mustaine himself, however, a Jehovah's Witness or a Jew unless you have a source that calls Mustaine himself, not either of his parents, as exactly that (I think the Jewish mother article called him "Jewish" in the title, so I guess that is fine). So far, not a single reputable source has even said Mustaine has any Welsh ancestry, much less is a Welsh-American (or if the source has, you haven't presented it). Wikipedia, of course, is not going to be the first to do simply because an editor wishes it was true. Yes, we all know Mostayn is a Welsh last name and O'Reilly is an Irish last name, etc. etc. but neither you nor anyone else is allowed to list people with those last names as Welsh or Irish-Americans until you have a source that does so. It's as simple as that. You either have got a source that says exactly what you want to say in the article, or you don't. AGF has nothing to do with uncited edits (not to mention that AGF goes out the window after profanity has been used by the editor), ignore all rules is not and should not be a policy, and I am not making any point except that you have to follow Wikipedia policy which, alas, is not a point. As for Hilary Duff - what's your point? We have reliable sources that say her middle name is Erhard, including her birth certificate. We have no reliable sources that say otherwise. It's incredibly simple. Mad Jack 00:55, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

So, you would have a problem saying: "Dave Mustaine claims the Mostyn family crest as his own, as described in the Greek interview he gave (etc.)"? The word Mostyn would be Wikilinked, then I could write the background of Mostyn on the Mostyn article. We could avoid this unpleasant "misidentification" nonsense that you are seemingly enjoying as some standard you have created to throw about on Wikipedia? Even User:Jimbo Wales approves of WP:IAR; how come you don't? Why do you consistently apply rules to others and yet not follow rules accepted by those other people? It seems you prefer becoming partisan on a regular basis, as evidenced in your edit history. You hate debate and love fighting. You shoot first and ask questions later. Actually, you don't want to bother with the questions at all. This is a collaborative project, not a personal quest of a single editor named "Mad Jack". This ain't your pipedream, where you can make your own rules and not follow other rules. You yourself aren't above the standards and conventions of the Wikipedia COMMUNITY, where TALK PAGES are for DISCUSSION on edits! Goddamn, you are dense on purpose! See WP:DICK IP Address 01:04, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Ignore all rules is not a policy. Even if it were, it says "If the rules prevent you from improving or maintaining Wikipedia's quality, ignore them." Just because someone wishes to list Dave Mustaine as a Welsh-American even when no sources say so, it certainly does not mean that Wikipedia will become a worse place even if that is not allowed to be done (especially considering it breaks every actual policy we have here). I suppose you could say "Dave Mustaine claims the Mostyn family crest as his own" (pointless saying "in a Greek interview", just cite it with a number) in his article, but the fact that it is a Welsh last name was in no way mentioned in the article and shouldn't be in the Wiki article either. Yes, of course you can link to the Mostyn page from the Mostyn mention. What does "Why do you consistently apply rules to others and yet not follow rules accepted by those other people" mean? That is simply false and you probably know it, too. Please refrain from personal attacks. Just because someone chooses to strictly follow Wiki policy, which so far has made this a better place, doesn't mean you must mock them. Anyway, the point is, yes, that line would be fine in Mustaine's article, but of course not that A. he is a Welsh-American or of Welsh descent and B. same for his inclusion in these lists, pending a source that says either. Mad Jack 01:13, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

You have created straw man libel of my actions. That is a personal attack, intended to get your own way and deny the good faith contributions of others. You revert a lot of other edits by other editors and make mocking statements in edit summaries, with no discussions...just one-sided monologues. You need to learn how to cooperate in a community setting; it cannot be your way all the time. Your way is NOT the Wikipedia way. I have cited your edit history as evidence to your dispensing of the rules and diplomacy. You hardly ever get along with anybody, but you don't use my vulgar vocabulary. Hey, it is what it is. A spade is a spade. Seeing the forest for the trees and reading between the lines is part of the Trifecta policy. Perhaps you have no idea how useful and common it is here, but it lends a vitality you smother in your quest to always be right and always have the last word. Hey, you're a hypocrite saying I do the mocking. I provided a source showing you just where you mocked others. Grow up and stop playing these testosterone games! Just because somebody has chosen to follow standard Wikipedia advice (Trifecta is an Admin fave), shouldn't mean you fight their good faith edits. I am willing to have the restricted presentation of his interview, but you know goddamned well what that means. It means everybody will draw the Occam's razor, providing for unknown bastardy and cuckhold fathers. Usually, men bear the surnames from their father. Mustaine believes his lineage is genuine, given his interest in his family crest. We are not going to ask for a fucking blood test to confirm this, for him or anybody else featured on the Wikipedia! Get used to it. IP Address 01:26, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Oh, pardon me for 'messying up "your" list'[2]. It will see additions and subtractions just like the next article. See WP:OWN. IP Address 01:31, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Mustayne has not mentioned anything about being Welsh. Wiki's policies allow me to revert anything that is unsourced to a source that says exactly what the editors want to say in the article. If anyone adds a name to the Welsh-Americans list with a source that says that person is Welsh-American, I can not do anything to revert it, regardless of my opinion on whether that person is Welsh-American or not. That's the difference between OWN and following Wiki policy. Mad Jack 01:35, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

It's not my opinion that Mustaine is Welsh; that is just what a collection of sources say. My opinion of Mustaine is that he is a great composer and performer; this statement I am making now is not a collection of cited info. What I just said about his character is irrelevant; what I provided about his heritage was well within the safety zone of NPOV or OR. You're mixing them up and I noticed your dispute on the matter of Carmen Electra's Cherokee heritage[3]. Your preference for cut and dried, or cookie-cutter versions of sources' statements don't flesh well in an organic, living Wikipedia. Jimbo would be furious with what you're doing. You are trying to make Wikipedia be Encyclopedia Brittanica, which is explicitly not what Wikipedia is. Even EB doesn't get so narrow-descriptive of its entries. You are seriously tunnel-visioned and ask any Wikipedian what Jimbo Wales feels about that. You cannot arbitrarily enforce this ideal of yours; it has *zero* tradition or practice outside of yourself and those pages which are fought over, like Arab/Israeli Mid-East conflicts and Kerry/Bush, or Liberal/Conservative articles. Its application in an article about somebody's paternal heritage is unfounded and ahistoric. You are misapplying Wikipedia's standards, because of misinterpretation on what they mean. Hanlon's razor indeed; you really are not malicious in ulterior motive. You merely don't see what's right in front of you, nor use common sense and DISCRETION. The Spirit of the Law is just as important as the Letter of the Law. All mature adults know this. That prosecutors and lawyers exploit loopholes, is beyond the average joe or jane. Please, don't be dense. Wikipedia's policies allow me to use my head and all Wikipedia Administrators understand WP:TRI. You are abusing the policies you claim to uphold, especially by making mocking comments over edit summaries to various peoples. You are like a brick wall and so many have difficulty reaching your inner self. You project an apathetic attitude, as if you don't really care about the subjects in question. You just care about being right.[4] IP Address 01:58, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

"that is just what a collection of sources say" - wonderful. Present one of these sources that actually says Dave Mustaine is Welsh and I will immediately put it in the aritcle and cite it. Enough already. I have had quite enough of this conversation, which has quickly degenerated to revolving around what I do here on Wikipedia, which is strictly enforce policy, and which so far has had sterling results, bar the displeasure of Wikipedia editors who don't get to express whichever slight POV they want to. When you come back from the block, please make edits that follow the key policies, WP:V, WP:NOR and WP:NPOV. There are enough editors on Wikipedia who are perfectly happy with these policies and willing to aid me in enforcing them. Mad Jack 02:05, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

You are tired of answering to the charges other people than yourself have to lay against you?! I beg your pardon, but Wikipedia is a two-way street where you are just as accountable as the next guy. You are upset that so many are in dispute with your rogue vigilante dream world of perfectionism (at this very moment, in a variety of articles), where the simple editor (you) pretends he is administrator and has final say on everything as an enforcer (lmao). You are not. Get a grip and learn to deal with people, not act all geeky and nerdy. Just using Wikipedia is dorky enough; we do not need people like you messing up the Wikipedia experience with hum-bug stuff. Your self-promotion is so out of the water. Egotism is not a quality trademark of Wikipedians, although we enjoy showcasing what we pride in our namespace. You are not the typical Wikipedian. You stand apart, like a sore thumb. I agree with ElKevbo's presentation of the policies, not yours. Yours is totally self-righteous. IP Address 02:13, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Block

You have been temporarily blocked for violation of the three-revert rule. Please feel free to return after the block expires, but also please make an effort to discuss your changes further in the future.

I don't give a fucking shit. You didn't even do a background check. IP Address 23:47, 24 July 2006 (UTC)