Jump to content

Talk:List of violent incidents in the Israeli–Palestinian conflict, July–December 2016

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 70.27.162.84 (talk) at 11:18, 10 July 2016 (→‎POV). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.


POV

Nishidani: Giedon Levy's (or Amira Hass in simmlar contexts) quotes are not things to be taken seriously here in Wikipedia. Critisizm of a person for his actions to a man (or woman) holding a knife one meter from him, after some 200 people were stabbed in the last seven months is Giedon Levy's casual ultra-biased provocative statements to get atention from some guys in Sweden cause people in Israel hate him. His quotes may look nice in some pro-Palestinian-socialist blogs or a random Carlos Latuff (#Not_Anti_Semitic) picture portreyed in a shitty Mondoweiss article. Giedon Levy is a joke endorsed by people who just don't understand, as even the most left-wing people who read Haaretz think he is a joke and sould shut up already with his pathetic atempts to be provocative. Using jokes here as legitimate interpretation is POV.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 19:56, 8 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Besides, this is a list article. It lists things we don't need to comment on every single one. Especially when it would be overkill to comment on every one, especially one that even the most anti-Israel person can see the cause for the shooting. You don't expect people to bend over backwards and let themselves be stabbed just because the person is a woman. Sir Joseph (talk) 19:59, 8 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Lol. I think Israel has no right to exist, and shouldn't exist, but it's Pro-Palestine, not "anti-Israel", by definition. You a disciple of Horowitz and his ilk, Sir Joseph?
Also, it's pretty clear why these events keep happening: Israel's illegal occupation of the Palestinian West Bank, and the clear mentality of the IDF soldiers and "settlers" when it comes to the sanctity of Palestinian life. No sympathy for occupation soldiers who're taught that Palestinians are "inferior" and that Jews get whatever land they squat on because "we're a special race of victims" or whatever the excuse de jour is. 70.27.162.84 (talk) 11:18, 10 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]


I don't have much time but I think these comments above are enough for a topic ban for Bolter21. Clearly way too emotionally involved/connected to the topic area, his comments are extremely and needlessly offensive. Sepsis II (talk) 20:10, 8 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Well, that's another tool to get rid of pro-Israeli editors I guess. I guess you are not that familiar with Haaretz then if you think his comments offensive. Regardless, we don't use opinion pieces so why is it suddenly allowed here? Opinion pieces are not RS. If we are suddenly allowed to use opinions please let me know. Sir Joseph (talk) 20:13, 8 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Inclusion of Levy in this case is a violation of WP:RS, as per the rulings above, you can be blocked for putting it in, especially after it was removed. Sir Joseph (talk) 20:20, 8 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
No, Sepsis. Bolter is relatively new, but a very promising editor. He's let go with his feelings, as any of us have at the beginning, and occasionally later. It's true you can get such outbursts on a charge sheet (WP:BLP), but we don't do that unless the attitude is persistent. He hates Levy and Hass, and the feeling is widespread in Israel. Had he checked he would have seen that both have passed RS challenges here numerous times. Their approach, or values, are more or less those I and most of my generation grew up with, so what they say seems fairly straightforward and uncontroversial. In the Israeli/Palestinian context, extreme language is normal, you have Abbas fantasying rabbis poisoning wells, ministers mulling genocide for Gaza, or Bennett proposing to kidnap Palestinians in the occupied territories so they can exchange them for the corpses of 2 Israeli soldiers in Gaza etc. So, to someone like myself, what the Levys, Hasses, Sternhells, Ashermans, Shulmans, Vardis,(followed by a list of hundreds) say is quite normal thinking. In Israel it is, in context, extreme because it is normal, and 'normal' is abnormal when everyone to your right and left is screaming. I needn't have added the fact that Rabbi Mark's bereaved daughter told those yelling for vengeance at her dad's funeral to shut up. I needn't have added Levy. I added both because they are normal, decent, sane comments on topic in a toxic world.Nishidani (talk) 20:23, 8 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Except that this article should just have X happened, not X happened and Y says Z. We reported that the soldier shot a girl, that is what the list is for. Levy's comments are his own opinions and not needed in a list article. Same as comments about funerals, etc. If there were separate articles about the events, then Levy's comments might have a spot there, but not in a list. As it is now, both are very large entries, not suitable for a list. Sir Joseph (talk) 20:27, 8 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
A touch of humour is bad eh? I always like to say, when a person lacks the sense of humour, he is far beyond repair. I thought that my request to you, not to comment to me again, was supposed to make you try and be nicer in the future, I was wrong. Now seriously, if there is someone too emotionally involved/connected to the topic area, he is probably Gideon Levy. Not only that opinions have no place in this article (and I never thought about the idea of explaining the Israeli cause via opinions of pro-Israeli people), Giedon Levy is maybe the last person that needs to be seen in this list, when his comments are usually depicted as a Propaganda tool by Hamas and being critisized by pretty much everyone in the political specturm of Israel and not only by angry right wing supporters. Someone whose opinions are so controversial should not have a stage in a list of violent incidents. Commentary is not needed in this article, regardless of wether it was Giedon Levy, Amira Hass, Barukh Marzel, Hanin Zoabi or Orit Struk.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 20:33, 8 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
By the way Nish, I have already used Amira Hass as a source. My problem is not with their works (Amira Hass does a fine job in being one of the most reliable Palestinian jounralists), my problem is their opinions.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 20:35, 8 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Joking about shooting Palestinian girls and hating journalists who don't repeat the government's POV may be fine in Israel, but this isn't Israel. We can't just present one opinion, the official Israeli one that the girl tried to stab the soldier, we should present other one's too, that the girl tried to get herself shot. Eitherway, I will bring this horrible behavior matter to AE later.Sepsis II (talk) 20:45, 8 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Now you assume I am a Likud supporter. Which is funny. But you don't even worth the explaination. Oh and you should tell them I learned holocuast Jokes from my grandmother, I should tell you some one day, they are hillarious.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 20:52, 8 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I also like to joke about cancer, gays, rape victims, dead babies and AIDS.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 20:53, 8 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Sepsis, don't get angry at people who get angry, and only take AE measures as a very last resort, which is absolutely not the case here.
B. I wasn't responding to your joke, but the first comment. Aa to opinions: the IDF usually gives its version of events, and we report those. They are 'versions'. B'tselem's versions are also given, usually totally different from the IDFs, and we use them. Bystanders' reports are mentioned, and we use them. We have Netanyahu et al., making comments on specific incidents, and we use them (you do at the page you mainly edit:Israeli–Palestinian conflict (2015–present). Amira Hass and Levy have throughout these articles been cited because they actually interview Palestinians to get their perspective. No one objected. As soon as Levy makes what happened to be exactly the same impression I had watching the video, you rush to censor it. I could make the same joke about dozens of Israeli shootings of people, one with a pencil, the other with a razor blade, about the quality of courage of such troops. I didn't. Levy's reading is one possible way of looking at the video. If you contrast it with the videos you have of real wild dangerous terrorists hacking at innocent Israelis (like the one you linked to) the contrast is extreme. A thug on a motorbike drove revving it straight at me, my wife, a friend and his wife over on a road in Siena 20 years ago, and they scattered, and fell. I stood my ground, and he had to veer. He jumped off his bike and strode towards me raging like a maniac. I took off my coat, and ran at him. He jumped on his motorbike and pissed of. I'm not brave, I just read the situation well. His power was in his leather jacket and the bike, one of that type that is tough in a crowd, but wilts if you call their bluff when they are on their own and many bystanders are watching. Nishidani (talk) 20:57, 8 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
And I don't 'mind' the joke. It's in bad taste in one sense, but black humour in the other, and I enjoy Carl Latuff and Monty Python on the crucifixion. But it throws no light on the edit issue. Nishidani (talk) 21:01, 8 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Then go make your gay jokes over at Pulse nightclub shooting, for non-Israelis it'll be equally appropriate to what you've said here. Sepsis II (talk) 21:06, 8 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The difference is that you are adding opinions and I am cencoring them. I think that stabbings by Palestinians are causing future Israeli soldier responses much more harsh and thus earlier attacks by Palestinians may have been one of the reasons why this woman is dead and I have opinion sources who say it but it won't have a place in this list. I don't like Hanin Zoabi, but I"ve added her opinion about the Israeli blockade of Yatta after the June 2016 Tel Aviv Shooting, becuase it was relevent in that article, but Gideon, or whoever you might bring, is not relevent to this list. Putting opinions in front of ignorent people usually cause them to believe to them immidiately. People actually thought Alor Azaria feared there was a bomb on a man with seven bullets in his upper body, because they were told. My reaction to your addition was loud because I honestly can't stand a word coming from Gideon's mouth, but I would revert it even if it was said by the mother of that woman or Barack Obama, or Shaul Arieli whom I generally agree with on most subjects concerning the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. And Spesis II, I like hyperboles, although I understand jokes go too far sometimes, just like your joke of me supporting the Likud.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 21:16, 8 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I would never accuse an editor of being a Likud supporter. Sepsis II (talk) 21:46, 8 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
C'mon, loosen up a bit, Sepsis. I once had a Lesbian girlfriend, who made an exception whenever my travels brought me her way. She took me to a homosexual party in LA, a cast of about 60, and it quickly emerged that I was the only 'straight' in the house. I was the only one not sniffing cocaine, and some even thought I might be an undercover agent (well, I sniffed two lines to calm their fears). Cracks about straight people flowed, so I quoted back two limericks my father told us:
From deep in the crypt at St. Giles
Came a roar that resounded for miles.
Said the rector, "Good gracious,
Has Father Ignatius
Forgotten the bishop has piles!?"
That got a laugh so I added:
Said a noble old sheikh of Algiers
To his harem one night,'My dears
You may think it odd of me,
For I do prefer sodomy
But tonight I'll be fucking.' Loud cheers.
No one was offended, even if they said you can't get away with that in 'straight society' in America.
Things are bad enough, without us complying with political correctness and losing all purchase on the real world, through humour, even black humour.Nishidani (talk) 21:22, 8 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Where I'm from we don't take too kindly to racists, the opposite reaction may occur where other editors originate but that doesn't mean we need to tolerate their hatred. Sepsis II (talk) 21:46, 8 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
As to 'stabbings by Palestinians are causing future Israeli soldier responses much more harsh', I have the opposite idea: a small number of Palestinians teenagers mostly are stabbing because 50 years of being pushed prodded humiliated and robbed at gunpoint by an army of occupation is beyond intolerable. That's no justification, it's cause and effect. But what you or I think is irrelevant. Levy, as Sepsis said, gave an informed, and not illogical, interpretation of a video of the incident. He is a qualified journalistic voice, more qualified than politicians, who are habitual and professional liars, or the IDF news handouts, which manage regularly to be comical in their ineptness at covering up state murders.Nishidani (talk) 21:33, 8 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Wouldn't it be nice to exclude both of our opinions, including opinions of others? The spesific one I talked about (which I found) was a comment to an attack from November, where a millitary commender said it is getting hard preventing mistakes by soldiers as in one hand they are told to suspect anyone becuase the attackers are almost always not only looking like civilians, but actually civilians, but on the other hand, it is hard to have them follow shooting instructions when they fear for their life as the daily reports including videos reach them. It was a critisizm of the media for helping terrorism by spreading it to as many people as they can, which according to that commendor, hurting the training of the soldiers to be cool in their environment. What I said was that some of my opinions have comentator saying them. Just becuase your idea is represented by Gideon Levy, doesn't mean it should be in the article, especially when this one represents a very clear POV statement. I have two concerns, the first is what we are telling are readers (in this case we are giving them one of the opinions expressed by a controversial man) and the second one is the existance of this article as a tool (hence, a list) and not a political analysis of the situation. We are talking incidents here, not the opinions on them and I prefer to trust our readers as inteligent enough to judge by themselves insteed of feeding them with opinions.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 21:56, 8 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Parts of our work are politically motiveted, for example me emphasasing that settlers reported about vandalism against Palestinians to the army, while you adding that a Palestinian doctor helped an Israeli victim of a shooting attack, but those are not opinions, those are facts.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 21:57, 8 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Most of our 'facts' come from IDF reports, which are only trusted by the Israeli public and the American government. Numerous third parties find most of their accounts poppycock and raw lying. So, the news sources we give supply that, and news sources that provide other versions are required for balance. For the IDF it was a terror attacks, for me, Levy and many others, it was an invitation to get killed by a suicidal girl, in neither case have we 'facts' we have interpretations of a video that lends itself to either interpretation, or even both.Nishidani (talk) 22:34, 8 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
This is why we have WP:TERRORIST.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 22:37, 8 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:List_of_violent_incidents_in_the_Israeli–Palestinian_conflict,_July–December_2016&oldid=729166466"