Talk:Ambalavasis

Are Pushpaka Brahmins real Brahmins? Debate

• Against

No historian, sociologist, anthropologist or any serious scholar refers to Ambalavasis as a literal "brahmin" community. "Ambalavasi" designates a social formation consisting of numerous castes or jatis involved in various temple services -- i.e. they are temple servants. They may be an upper caste formation but the claims that the community in toto constitutes a "brahmin" community or "caste between Brahmins and Kshatriyas" is nonsense. Clearly this entry like others is no more than bits of wishfull thinking parading as facts.

• For

Most of the pushpaka brahmins wear Yajnopaveeta, which is a Brahmin symbol. And for the knowledge of the argumentor, there existed no distinct Chaturvarnya system in kerala. It was a substitution to the castes existed in Kerala based on the social level. It can also be noted that in most of the historical references and novels, nairs are considered as Sudras. But in some other books, Nairs are Kshatriyas and again in some others Nairs are Vaisyas. Eventhough not much references available, this is the case of Ambalavasis also.

• Against

You've pretty much admitted my point. Ambalavasis have an undefined or ambiguous status in the formal varna system --that doesnt make them "brahmins" even if _some_ (not even most) communities have managed to adopt certain rituals and customs whether historically or recently. For the last two centuries, largely since the end of the 18th century, upper caste or savarna communities in Kerala -- communities of high ritual rank -- have often been involved in a struggle of redefining or repositioning themselves in the chaturvarna system precisely as the premodern seigneurial-feudal mode of production began to dissolve undermining the social relations built upon them. For example in Kerala numerous intermediate caste strata, i.e. dominant peasant or artisanal caste groups, for the first time were able to claim or push successfully for "nair" staus with their growing economic power-- a process similar in Northwest India with intermediate and lower tier communities claiming Rajput status -- a process still going on today. Both communities began to accept new communities and redifine themselves in terms of their constituent communities in order to protect sectarian intrests. IN the premodern period this upward mobility was largely restricted, the various savarna caste communities having more defined social functions, ritual rank (relative to each other) and membership. THe boundries of the upper strata of the "nair" caste or aristocracy for example overlapped with the royal caste families ("Kshatriya" often being more a titular rank for particular families than a caste in the sense that we understand it) while the lower ranks of the community constitued lower gentry, the squirearchy and retainers (See for example "THE Boundries of Hindu Law: Tradition, Custom, and Politics in Medieval Kerala", Davis, R. 2004) Modernity has largely redefined what "nair" or "ambalavasi" mean. In the middle of all that ambiguity and historical amnesia communities have attempted to make claims and push for redifnitions, using fictional stories to assert or underscore their claims-- in fact this is one of the most pervasive features of the changing social system throughout the subcontitnent But let's be clear about this: despite the ambiguity, neither in a popular sense nor in a scholarly sense have Ambalavasis ever been considered "brahmins". THe ambalavasis community spans a large number of ritually high ranking jatis-- for e.g. the Nambiar community in rank sometimes/someplaces overlaped with nairs, the community having alternatively been classified both as ambalavasis and nairs; while the Marrar ambalavasi community despite savarna status were often considered ritually polluting by some nair communities because they were the ones to handle their death cermonies. . . none of these are necesarily true or false one way or the other, it just goes to demonstrate the absurdity of claiming that such a wide group of overlapping high ranking castes with ill-defined boundries constitutes a "brahmin" caste. In fact there are lots of things that are wrong, absurd or just plain silly about the entry in question--I neither have the time nor interest in editing peoples's lazy unfounded assertions or sectarian fantasies. I've only changed the most obviously ridiculous, over-the-top claims that were clearly motivated by a personal agenda. To repeat: ANyone even moderately familiar with Kerala's social system and history would find the claims that ambalavasis "are commonly known as Ambalavasi Brahmins" or are an "intermediate caste between Brahmins and Kshatriyas" simply laughable-- if anything they have been both "commonly" and from a scholarly point of view considered below "Kshatriyas" and above while at the same time overlapping with "nairs" (Off the top of my head, see for example any of the early state manuels or surveys, or pretty much ANY scholarly historical work). The edits being done are minor -- simply removing a couple of the most absurd and unsustainable claims clearly motivated by petty caste obsessions.

• For

In the firste paragraph, there is no claim that they are proper brahmins. The word used is Semi-Brahmins.. It does not mean proper brahmins. Therefore a change like not Brahmins proper is not necessary. You must be aware of the fact that, in India, only Brahmins have gotra. Similarly pushpaka brahmins have gotra. You can be confirm it by asking to elder ambalavasis. The rituals mentioned in Yajurveda is also practiced by most of the communities in Pushpaka Brahmins. Kerala ambalavasis mainly adhers to Krishna Yajurveda-Boudhayana sampradayas.See "Kriyaratnamala".

• Against

THis Wiki entry is largely puerile fantasy -- your own discussion posts here are confused about the matter, trying to have it both ways. NO ONE seriously considers them brahmins or an "intermediate caste between Brahmins and Kshatriyas". As for your laughable assertions about gotras and rituals, I suggest you peruse the sociological literature on "sanskritization" Again stop passing your fantasies off as factual material.

• For

Why are you considering as fantasy? It is well stated in the first paragraph that they are not brahmins. The word used is semi-brahmins. It was the status of Pushpaka brahmins from time. There is no need to consider them as brahmins. But the word semi-brahmins is more suitable than non-proper brahmins. There is no need for assersion about gotras and other things. I dont know what you really want to establish. The most serious matter is not this. While you are reverting the present edition to a previous one, the historically established things which are corrected later are also getting reverted to older incorrect version. Please consider this fact. I doubt, you are purposefully trying to diminsh the real social status of ambalavasis. There is no claim for brahminism. They are not arguing that they are priestly caste. Read the article fully. Go for edit. Dont revert. Consider this as a request.Please...

• Against

Look, they are NOT brahmins, "semi-brahmins" or an "intermediate caste between Brahmins and Kshatriyas". They are NOT in ANY way as a caste group even partly considered as brahmins. In social or ritual rank they are as a caste grouping traditionally considered below the formally defined "kshatriya" families and slightly above, while also at the same time ovelapping with the upper ranks of the extant nair community. In fact if one were to ensure a high level of accuracy for this Wiki entry one would have to gut it in its entirety and rewrite it from top to bottom, including changing the name of the entry from "Pushpaka Brahmins" to "Ambalavasis". I've merely changed a couple of the more ludicrous statements. Be thankful for that. If you want to pass off wishfull thinking or absurd beliefs as facts then may I suggest you set up your own website where you can indulge in whatever fairytales you so desire.

• FOR

Why the NOT in bold? The kshatriya person above want to demote the status of ambalavasis. Ambalavasis are brahmins. 202.88.236.202 12:07, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Page in flux

It seems the page is in a continuous flux due to the debate going on. Hence reverted to older version by 59.93.11.96. Aanand Pranav Sharma 11:46, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Entries Should Stick to the Facts

This page (like so many others) is being used to push the weird personal caste agenda of certain individuals. Again, no serious historian, anthropologist or classical scholar considers Ambalavasis as a community in toto to be "brahmins", "kshatriyas" or something in between. Nor are they considered to be any of the above in popular culture. The manner in which people respond to the editing out of the more ridiculous and unsubstantiated claims speaks volumes. Stick to the basic facts -- then eloborate when you have evidence to -- it's that simple! For example the absurd title for the entry should eventually be removed unless someone comes up with serious scholarly references for the term (other than what their uncle told them when they were kids). Otherwise the entry title should be renamed as "Amblalvasis". Similarly, the dubious stuff about gotras and rituals as well as several other weird claims should be removed unless substantiated by real sources (which almost certainly they won't be).Sorry, but people emphatically insisting on this or that claim isn't going to cut it as evidence. The edits have been very conservative so far.

See Sociological books

Reverted.This is not a presonal attempt to places ambalavasis above any other caste. For your kind information, the editor i.e. me is a Ph.D holder in Sociology . My study mainly related to Kerala caste system. All entries are based on facts here are some referencees. Indian Society, by S. C. Dubey, National Book Trusts, India. Caste and race in India, GHURYE, The user named a...an studies seems to be a Nambyar belonging to nayar sect. He is not a real sociologist or anthopologist. Learn more about the caste system existed in Kerala and then group. he merely wants to place his Nayar sect of Nambyar above ambalavasi caste. That is why he wants to reduce the existed status of Ambalavasis. If his basis economy, then it may be correct. Otherwise it is not. Anyway, nowadayas the social status of ambalavasis are pitifyl and they can be considered below Avarnas existed previously.

Still No references cited

Are you kidding!?! You call just listing the name of a book that has nothing to do with whats been discussed, a reference? What kinda of a "PhD" in sociology did you get? This is simply embarrassing. Cite evidence properly with the names of relevant sources that can be verified, and explicitly state the positions argued or stated within. Oh and by the way, I'm not a "Nambyar", or any other caste for that matter-- my interest is in the history of state formation in late feudal and early colonial Kerala. I modified the Wiki entry for "Nambiar" because it was probably one of the stupidest things i had ever come across on the internet. I got tired of getting idiotic sectarian drivel every time I tried doing a Google search for something. I finally got fed up and just decided to follow the links on Wikipedia correcting some of the more stupider assertions i found along the way. Its funny though, I guess if you're secretly motivated by a creepy caste agenda, as you clearly are, then you just end up assuming that everyone who happens to challenge your silly assertions must also be similarly motivated.

Only for the user agrarianstudies

I am tired. When you wanted references, I cited two references. You are not willing even to find it. If you want I can suggest more references about position of Ambalavasis. If you are a real student, you can find it. I cannot bring it to your hands and I am not going to mention the places where they are available. That is not my duty. You are trying to establish your ideas by harsh sentences. You must be aware of the fact that chaturvarnyam is not the caste system. It is only a classificateion. When aryanization took place in southern india,the castes already existed in kerala were naturally grouped in to these four classes. Actually,there were no castes which were grouped into Kshatriyas and Vaisyas. However, later, Kerala Nayers, Maharastrian Marathas and Tamil Maravors accured Kshatriya postion by their economic status. I know, obtaining a Ph. D is not a final word in all these matters. (I told it to you only because I wanted to make you undrstand that I am not kidding). But you are a person who are not even trying to refer those books that I have suggested. I'm sure, You have no understanding on these matters. When the classification occured gradually, eventhough it took over a long time, the ambalavasis community generally considered in the Brahmana varna. Pushpaka Brahmin is the technical name used by them. Even now, they are using the same name. Wiki articles are headed by technical names. So there is no need of changing the title of the article. The redirect link is sufficient. I already told you that I have not much time to talk with you. Eventhough, your rude and harsh character prompted to write such a long message. You took a name as agrarianstudies. I wonder--Do you know the meaning of that word? And you are still remaining as a red link. Please disclose yourself. Being red is not a disqualification for editing this areticle.But let me know what your real status is. Please dont revert to your stupid article. The introduction that you are provided is neither in wiki format nor factual. I hope you will stop editing this way. However,historical changes are acceptable. Insvik 12:41, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Still No references cited

You have cited nothing. You cited general interest books that have nothing to do with Kerala's social history and caste system -- one of them published in the 1930s I believe. Cite relevant literature and support your claims with quotes and summaries. You then went on to say: "However, later, Kerala Nayers, Maharastrian Marathas and Tamil Maravors accured Kshatriya postion by their economic status. " This is the sort of thing that shows you know nothing of social history in Kerala or India in general. The later two communities are cultivator or peasant castes associated with agricultural labour i.e. intermediate caste communities--the growth of the market economy and extension of tenancy rights allowed for the economic growth of these communities -- hence the fictional claims of higher varna status. Nairs were the opposite case,a caste in the past who constituted the higher ranks of the of the aristocracy at the top and a network of military retainers and lower gentry at the bottom. The growth of the market economy meant a radical _decline_ in economic power despite high social status. Attempting to place savarna communities like "Nair" and "Ambalavasis" in a rigid varna system doesnt work as is the case in many parts of India not just SOuth India. The constant claims for this or that status is part of the jostling and repositioning that various communities have been in engaged in for the last two centuries as they protected or pushed for their intersests in a changing social order-- it is a product of modernity not of ancient history. Best to call Nairs "Nairs" and Ambalavasis "Ambalavasis". WHatever the case, your claim that "ambalavasis community generally considered in the Brahmana varna "(sic) is a statement that is simply false, not ambigously so; not an issue being debated or yet unresolved, but simply false. If you dont like it, too bad. Only the most egregious errors have been removed from the entry.

What is your intention?

Actually I am not getting you. Moreover this is a discussion page. Why are you not sending comments to my talk page. I think you are a new wikipedian. And you usually forgets to sign your articles. You are prompting me to report you as a spam to the wikiadministrators. I am requesting you politely that be manly. Actually I dont like this type of personal arguments in discussion page. If you can, please comment on my talk page.

I accept the fact that I dont know much more about Kerala caste system. But this doesen't meen that I dont know any thing and you know everything. I am actually a student of Kerala history and sociology. A person living in the 21st century. So I am not arguing that I know everything.

All the sentences I have given about the status of Nairs, Marathas etc. are not mine. They are from standard references. I am not getting what is your intention. I think you donot like the word semi-Brahmin. This may be the problem. I am here suggesting a few books for you. I cant bring it to your hands, but if you really want to know about kerala history, you can find it from standard libraries. Please go through these books. Let this article as such till our discussion reaches a conclusion. Because I cant bear providing false statements to REAL students. Now I am suggesting four books. I hope you will read this and then make the comments.

1. Society in Medieval Malabar by K.S. Mathew. 2. Caste, Nationality and Communism in South India. Dilip Menon 3. Caste in Southern Inida by Saenart. 4. Indian caste system: A Study by Hayavadana.

Eventhough I suggested these books, I am sure that you will repeat the stupid sentence "STILL NO REFERENCES CITED". I dont know what you actually mean by a references. I think these books are not written for any particular intention. In most of the books about Old kerala society, it can be found that the castes mentioned in Ambalavasis are classified as "antarala brahmins". In some books the term used is simply antralars (intermediaries). It is also clearly stated that "In the caste Structure of Kerala, the Antarala Brahmins like Varriers, Chakyars,..., came below the Namboothiris and above Nairs.

I am sure that you will have arguments without any studies. I will admit it..But, please...put it in my talk page. Not here. This is not the place for personal debates. This is a place for general debates. And finally, I have to say one thing, Your article after editing is not in general wikiformat. First go through the tutorials. And also see the standard pages of wikipedia.

Yours Insvik 12:47, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Yup, Still No Relevant References

The question is not what my intentions are, but what yours are? You're the one, by posting complete fiction as fact, that is clearly trying to use this page for your own personal agenda , and then disingenously hiding behind claims that you are not really claiming what you are in fact claiming -- hence the title for the entry "Pushpaka Brahmins" (a non-existent entity); or the use of the phrase "Ambalavasi Brahmins"; or your weird claim that ambalavasis "show attributes of both the Brahmins and Kshatriyas. Hence this caste is generally considered as an intermediate caste between Brahmins and Kshatriyas". As for your amusing method of citations you merely list book titles that have either nothing to do with what we are talking about or that don't in any way support your weird claims. Did you think this sort of trick would work? that I or anyone else would have no familiarity with the relevant published literature? You trying to pull this sort of trick makes me wonder if you're either a complete fraud or simply obtuse. You repeatedly say things like "it is from standard references" or that "it can be found that" without citing anything, indicating that you really have no idea what you are talking about. In any case there are really only two points that need to be considered:

(1)Its a simple principle: if there is some disagreement regarding points of fact it is best to leave them out until they are resolved -- that is any entry should be conservative in its claims and not include potentially wild statements (2) Properly speaking, Ambalavisis are really a collection of castes -- a grouping that is collectively placed below Kshatriyas and above Nairs in Kerala's traditional caste hierarchy -- there is of course some overlap, and the boundaries, particularly between upper strata nairs and some groupings of ambalavasis and royal lineages, can be diffuse, but still this is the basic and _uncontroversial_ framework for caste at that end of the social hierarchy. For example see C. Fuller's important ethnography in central Travancore, "The Nairs Today", where he lists (while still acknowledging ambiguities at the boundries) the basic ritual hierarchy starting from the top:

Nambudiri Brahmins

Other Brahmans

Kshatriyas

Samantans

Ambalavasis

Nayars

Vilakkittala Nayars, Veluthedathu Nayars

Kammalas ... etc, etc.

(Fuller, CJ, the Nayars Today, Chpt 2. Cambridge University Press, 1976). This is just one simple example -- but EVERY other source gives the SAME setup. Almost everything you have written for the entry in question is sheer fabrication. Given that your claims are so completely disconnected from reality I can only assume you have no scholarly interests in the subject at hand, but are instead using this page for your own _personal_ lobbying effort on behalf of your casteist politics. Now that really is the issue, isnt it? --AgrarianStudies(03/08/06)

What else to discuss?

Almost everything you have written for the entry in question is sheer fabrication. Given that your claims are so completely disconnected from reality I can only assume you have no scholarly interests in the subject at hand, but are instead using this page for your own _personal_ lobbying effort on behalf of your casteist politics. Now that really is the issue, isnt it? .About me?. Please..Dont...Think about yourself. I have not only contributions in this field, and I am a person having verity of interests. But you always stick on only two pages, Pushpaka brahmins and Nambiars. No othr contributions. I got it.

You had prove yourself as an unexperienced wikipedian. I have given too many suggestions. You are sayiny, all these are fictious books. I have to do nothing expect laughing. I have much more references. But you dont desreve it. No more discussion with you. Let us continue this reversion war. That may be better. If you are furthr interested, go for studies on Kerala society. I told you about the term antarala. It is clearly classed in between Nambutirs and Nairs. Not below nair. You are a filled bottle. Nothing can be poured into your mind. You are not willing to study one more book. I assume you are an ORTHODOX NAIR. Any way no more discussion with you. Because you dont like it. I think reversion is your hobby. Anyway your article is not acceptable. Its introductory paragraph is not in wiki format. It starts with some Bullets and wide gaps etc. See other pages. Then edit. If you want to know any other thing, only comment on my talk page or post me a message. The Insvik link will help you. Yours Insvik 08:29, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Response to rant

I started out fixing a few entries but only this one and the Nambiar entry were so over the top that I stuck to them as a matter of principle. You keep making loopy claims and then offer nothing to back it up. You think it sufficient to list book titles that have nothing to do with the topic or dont in any way support your claims -- not once have you indicated why the book titles you listed were relevant to your claims. Looking at your incoherent rant its clear you didnt, or simply couldnt read what was posted which clearly put Ambalavasis below Samantans and above Nairs. You simply repeat the same claims made over and over again with no citation. But you're right, enough is enough -- the whole page needs to be scrapped and done over again starting with the name "Pushpaka brahmins"-- there is a "Pushpakan" caste that brings flowers to the temple but they are by no stretch "brahmins", this term appears to be complete fiction -- we'll have to get rid of that part, and the nonsense about gotras and rituals etc.has to go. I find it almost impossible to believe you're actually a PhD student in sociology. Oh yeah and once again, unlike you, I'm not a member of any caste from Kerala, or from anywhere else in South Asia for that matter; my interests are not suspect like yours clearly are. My concerns are scholarly - I just got pissed off over the years watching cranks like you post whacked shit on the various Wiki sites related to my area of study. Now I'm going to stick to it on principle. I was actually going to let it go a while back but you kept posting the same idiocies over and over again without anything to back it up, and even continued when clear counter evidence was provided. All you do is insist over and over again, as if that were sufficient. This is NOT your personal website, understand? -AgrarianStudies(03/08/06)

AMBALAVASIS

Well well....see it is an accepted fact that ambalavasis were called the antarjathi or the intermediate castes that came between the namboodiris and nairs....some scholars say they were above the royalty too while some say they came below the royalty....this can be refered to in the Travancore State Manual by V.Nagam Aiya.

It so happens that i am an unnithan and we are called Samanthans. we donot allow ambalavasi men to marry our women and neither do we touch them. at the same time the ambalabvasis didnot touch other nairs like panickers, pillais etc.

Ambalavasis have indeed been mentioned as middle castes. thats y the name antherjathi to them. the Kshatriyas, Samanthans and Amabalavasis together consititute the Antharjathi. Let me explain the reason for the rise of the Antharjathi.

Nairs were ritually sudra and hence couldnt rule as crowned kings. So some were 'purified' and made Kshatriyas. The Kshatriyas made their children, not matrilineal kin, but their own children, as governers etc and gave them samantha status.

Similarly, since the Nairs were ritually sudra they could not be employed to assist the brahmins in the temples and hence some of them were elevated to ambalavasi position which, as brahmins in the keralolpathi defines "...brahmanyam oondu, pakshey brahmanan alla'...ie they have brahmanyam but they are not pure brahmins....similarly the book also mentions that they are 'above sudra but not dwija'....also kaushika gotra, which is also the gotra of ambalavasis from karnataka, is also accepted.

Ambalavasis didnot eat or touch nairs....but like u said, marars had different positions in malabar and travancore....in malabar they were held in high regard, though of course the samanthans like nambiars didnt touch them or any other ambalavasis, while in travancore they are high caste in theory but low caste in practise.

ask any namboodiri in kerala whether the ambalavasis were higher than nairs they will say yes...ask them if they were brahmins they will say no...thts coz they have only semi brahmin status....for instance while they followed mostly nair customs and traditions, except nambissans, nambiathis, moosads, elayathus, pushpakas, unnis etc who wear the sacred thread, they donot eat meat, they have the right to learn sanskrit and shlokas...note that the thread wearing ambalavasis were never accepted as brahmins and neither were they included in the distribution of gifts to brahmins..

HOWEVER i disagree with the statement 'Pushpaka Brahmins' Pushapakans were just one grp of the ambalavasis. Similarly there is a less known ambalavasi grp known as Adissan. They have their origin from namboodiri, ambalavasi and nair caste and since their work was associated with the temple, they were later included as ambalavasis.

initially members of the three upper castes used to give a child from their family, girl or boy, for human sacrifices. at one point when it stopped, these people were absorbed for serving the temples and became 'allu vetti sheshichavar' which later became adissan.

what im saying here is, politically speaking ambalavasis were below kshatriyas and above nairs...they were known as antharjathi or intermediate castes alias antralar...they were assistants of the priests and hence, i agree, secured semi brahmin status. This is confirmed by Suresh Namboodiripad and Pudumana Madhusudhanan Namboodiri, the former a scholar and astrologer and the latter the main thanthri or priest of the famous ambalapuzha temple. I personally know these two individuals and they both have confirmed that ambalavasis were above the nairs and also that they had only semi brahmin status, since they were assistants of the brahmins...and i DONOT agree with what is stated as the origin of the ambalavasis in the article...i have never even heard of thismanu

Regarding AMBALAVASIS

Confirmation once again of everything I have pointed out -- in particulat that Ambalavisis are clearly not "brahmins" and that they exist between Kshatriyas and nairs. THe term "semi-brahmin" is simply nonsensical -- there's just no such category in existence -- its a purposely vague term used to allow people to play with the facts and definitions. Truth be told if you want to _force_ both ambalavasis and nairs into a chaturvarna system they could both be considered as "sudras"-- although the attempts at such formal designations is a relatively recent construction, given pariticular impetus during the 19th C. due to the economic mobilization and competition that occurred between dominant communities, and which coincided with the reconstruction -- or more accurately the *invention* of "hinduism" during the early colonial era. (For example see "Ethnicity and Populist Mobilization: Political Parties, Citizens and Democracy in South India" , N. Subramanian). Nevertheless the important point remains that the previous entry is simply fiction. --AgrarianStudies

I WOUld say that is the nairs were to be forced into the Chaturvarna they would be Kshatriyas. and BTW keralolpathi written by the namboodiris calls the ambalvasis as 'Ardhabrahmana'.

Ambalavasi classification

There appears to be a lot of politics being attributed to the discussions. It is my understanding, the information from my uncles and family, that Ambalavasies are not Brahmins. It is said that Ilayathu is the lowest of the Brahmin castes and Moothathu is the highest non Brahmin castes; the reason why Ilathu is above Moothathu, though by the meaning of the word it should be the other way.

All Ambalavasi castes are not Pushpakas. Tiyattunnis consider themselves above Pushpakanunnis and do not consider themselves as pushpakas. If they are not Moothathu, who are higher in order can not be. Till about 1940s tiyattunnis were not having marital relationship with pushpakanunnis. There is also a sect called Samanthanunni, who is considered lower than tiyattunnis, though I am not aware of there position vis-s-vis Pushpakanunnis

The article wrongly includes Ilayathu as a Pushpaka while they are real Brahmins (ref: www.namboothiri.com/articles/classification.htm). --Unnikn 18:18, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

SemiBrahmin

Kerala had more castes, alphabets and even trade unions than the rest of the country. As pointed out by an enlightened reader above, fitting the myriad castes into fixed compartments of 4 varnas is a daunting task. However, considering the folowing traits of the ambalavasis, I leave it to antagonists like agrarian to plough their way thru to justify the committed stance that ambalavasis are shudra/vysya or kshatriya ( if they insist on ambalavasis not being brahmin):

(a) Some ambalavasis did wear the sacred thread.

(b) Some ambalavasis did excel as experts in the field of maths,shastra and language (gurus) akin to Drona and Veda Vyasa of the legends. Veda Vyasa was born the son of a fisher woman. Antagonists may like to club him as a shudra too! ( His progeny -Dritarashtra, Pandu and Vidura are beyond consideration).( parayi petta 12 kudumbam is an even more fascinating/ ridiculous concept of keralolpathi where the progeny of the pariah lady is elevated to brahmin status)

(c) Some ambalavasis did perform the tasks of purohit of their own as well as nair and allied communities (Ilayathu)

(d) Some ambalavasis did perform poojas in temples (Adikal)

(e) Some ambalavasis did perform the shodasa kriyakal/ rituals/customs associated with the dwija/ born again communities.

(f) Some ambalavasis did base their livelihood in and around the temples.

(g) Needs authentication: If I remember right, Aithihyamala refers to shaktan thampuran giving 8 annas dakshina to nambuthiris and 4 annas dakshina to paradesa brahmins and ambalavasis at trichur vadakkunathan temple. Could someone confirm or disprove this please... I could not get the exact ref presently.

To sum up these aspects, here is a community that was temple dwelling, janevu (sacred thread) wearing twice born, performing roles of acharyas, gurus, purohits and priests. None of them were permitted by the then traditions to do "oathu" of vedas, although many nambuthiris were described in kottarathil sankunni's aithihyamala as 'vedaarharallaatha brahmananmaar' by the same token.

The contention that these qualities make the ambalavasi a unique semi brahmin variety not found in the rest of the country is not correct. There are similar (Grihasthya) Brahmin communities found all over India who had been assigned similar non vedic chanting roles / secular roles (check Niyogi Brahmins of Andhra, Chithpaavan Brahmins of Maharashtra, Bhumihars of Bihar, Mohyal of Punjab and Tyagis of West Uttar Pradesh, to name a few).

intcore 21:07, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

SemiBrahmin?

There has been no answer to the contention that Ilayathu is not an ambalavasi but a Brahmin (Namboothiri). I missed to mention about the same contention about Adigal. I can not offer any scholarly reference other than the website www.namboothiri.com/articles/classification.htm)

--Unnikn 15:27, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Ambalavasis are Pannikodan alias Pushpakan Nairs...