Talk:Femme

This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Takkygirl1153 (article contribs).

Poorly researched and inaccurate

This page is poorly researched, inaccurate, and presents a biased view of feminism and lesbianism.

The page barely touches on the history of the term "femme," which used to apply exclusively to (cis-female) lesbians. Its origins are alluded to here: "Although it originated from the dichotomous relationship between butch and femme, femme is an 'independent, autonomous gender expression' which doesn't need masculinity to help define it or attract them sexually, since relationships between two people who identify as femmes is possible," but this misrepresents lesbian relationships by implying that all lesbians identify as "butch" or "femme" and relationships can ONLY occur between a butch and a femme. This is completely inaccurate.

There are many inconsistencies within this rather short article. The intro says: [Femme] is used exclusively for queer people regardless of whether they identify as female." But, in the section butch vs. femme, it says, "Specifically the femme identity gave the idea that women did not have to orient their sexuality around men." So, does femme only apply to females or not? Does it apply to lesbians or anyone who falls under the ever-widening queer umbrella?

The whole article is wrought with buzzwords that are never clearly defined. The article says "The radical rethinking of sexual liberation was starting to be born" without providing sufficient context. This sentence adds nothing and should be deleted. Honestly, I have no idea what the author is talking about.

The entire section "Emergence of queer theory and gender politics" is incoherent. It reads: Postmodernism and queer theory began “to examine the limits of not just gender itself, but the ways the concept of gender is defined, constrained, mandated, and rectified within the cultural discourse. And also the ways it can be reclaimed and re-signified.”[3] In modern contexts and the increasing awareness of femme invisibility,“the attention paid to the butch figure has been heavily critiqued by an emerging queering of femininity”[5] These new frameworks and perspectives allowed queer individuals to look at gender and expression in a whole new way in the context of the butch and femme identities, and begin to expand their individual possibilities and understandings of the terms along with the ideas of gender role play in general.[3]

These quotes are never explained. What do postmodernism and queer theory have to say about gender? Why is "the butch figure" critiqued. Who's critiquing this figure? It's never established that there even is an increasing awareness of "femme invisibility." I'm not really sure what femme invisibility is. I don't even know what a "femme" is, because this article said that femme used to refer to "feminine" lesbian partners but now can refer to any queer-identified person who accepts the label. Are lesbians being erased? Are effeminate men being erased? How does this erasure manifest?

The "Emotional Labor and Self Care" section is utter nonsense. There's a quote taken from an Autostraddle thinkpiece (not by any measure a reliable source) that again is given no context or interpretation. Then it says femme can refer to behaviors, or it can refer primarily to appearance, depending on who's using the term. These "femme" behaviors are never coherently explained. According to the article: "Femme have the unique ability to find power and strength in highlighting and appreciating their 'feminine' behaviors and characteristics such as self-care and putting in emotional labor and creating/maintaining relationships."

Why is this ability unique to femmes? Can only feminine lesbians be empowered by their femininity? Can only feminine queers be empowered this way? Why? Are heterosexual women barred from feeling empowered by their femininity? What even are feminine behaviors? Is it inherently feminine to take care of yourself (or is self-care something else) and form relationships with other humans? What is emotional labor? Why don't some femmes connect with it? Why is it associated with being femme at all?

The "Femme vs femininity" section is insulting to anyone who's studied feminism. Why the categories of "modern" and "traditional" feminism. Feminism is fighting against traditional roles for women, and by definition cannot be traditional. Is modern feminism any feminism that is practiced today? Because there are lots of disagreements within feminism at the moment. The definitions given are simplistic, and, as far as I know, not upheld by any feminist discourse. It should not be surprising that the definitions are atrocious, because the citation is a random Prezi presentation that could have been made by someone who has clearly not seriously studied feminist history and is not in any way an authority on the subject.

Is traditional feminism actually second wave feminism? Second wave feminism would hold that gender is a social construct and "femininity" is imposed on women (female-born people) as a tool of subjugation by men.

Are femmes a cohesive group of people? As mentioned, this article has not clearly defined femme. If all femmes hold the opinions mentioned in the "Femme vs femininity" section, femmes should be defined on those beliefs. Since as "femme" as defined by this article does not refer to a specific biological sex, sexuality, behavior or appearance, it seems that "femme" is a belief system more than anything. If there is no gender binary, why do masculinity and femininity even matter? Misogyny is hatred of women, not hatred of femininity (although they often overlap). A woman who is beat up for looking too masculine or for having sex with another woman is a victim of misogyny. A man who is beat up for wearing a dress is not a victim of misogyny. Why do femmes get to redefine words? Who are these femmes? Why are they no citations?

The section ends, almost comically, with, "More specifically femme is combining feminist ideas to self-empowering actions." There is nothing specific in this sentence. What are feminist ideas? We were just given two contradicting (albeit incorrect) definitions of feminism. What are self-empowering actions? How is identifying as femme increasing anyone's societal power? Feminism is literally a movement designed to empower women, what changes when feminism is combined with "self-empowering actions?" What does this sentence do but imply feminism is not empowering?

The "Femmephobia and invisibility" section is useless. It is unclear what a femme is, but apparently it is possibly for someone to be perceived as "femme." If that is true, what are the characteristics that would cause someone to be seen as a femme? Three of the four terms (I do not know what femi-negativity is, and there is no link to help me find out) refer to violence experienced by transwomen. This implies that femmephobia refers to male-bodied people who have feminine characteristics. But I thought femmes were originally lesbians. I thought that today female-bodied people can still be femme. So why the focus on transwomen? The last two sentences are a load of jargon, and, again, nothing is defined. I still don't really know how femme invisibility manifests or who it is targeted against. I still don't really know why it matters. I still haven't been given concrete evidence that it even exists.

Overall, this article is poorly written, incoherent and inaccurate. Many statements are not sourced, and several of the sources provided (everdayfeminism, autostraddle, prezi) are not in any way reliable. Definitions, if given, are inaccurate, as in the case of "feminism" and "misogyny." If I am held to the same standards as the author, what is preventing me from saying that trans people believe that two people with penises can reproduce sexually, provided one of them identifies as a woman and the other a man? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 148.85.237.208 (talk • contribs)

Revert of the recent rewrite

As seen with this edit, I reverted PersistantFemmeSociety (talk · contribs) rewrite of this article. I'm not a fan of either version, but the previous version (which was written by WP:Student editors) at least does not begin by limiting the term femme to lesbians in the lead and I think it is better organized. I will contact WP:LGBT about weighing in on this matter. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 02:35, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

One more thing: This is not the Butch and femme article. If this article begins to look too much like that one, it should simply be merged with that one. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 02:39, 5 April 2017 (UTC)