Talk:Straight edge

The artichle is not particularly good at saying what seperates straight edge from just not using drugs or alcohol. It says they are very different, but not how. Also, the motivations for many straight edgers, or why some turn militant and how they are militant is never explained.

Spirituality

I think this is well said and should be kept as is:

"Some straight-edgers feel that having a clear mind is a better way to approach life and/or spirituality. They tend to be atheistic or agnostic, often believing in self-responsibility and rejecting the idea of a deity or any divine moral law. However, in many circles the lifestyle has associations with Christianity, and there were at one time a significant Hare Krishna and Mormon straight-edge movements. There are also Muslim straight-edgers, especially in Islamic countries, most notably Malaysia."

Now, there are some people with religious agenda who will try to hijack this part of the article and edit something like: "Straight-edgers tend to be christians" etc (just removed one). To me it sounds like "Heavy Metal fans tend to worship Satan", and even that would be more of a fact than above. Straight edge, as everyone knows, has it's roots in punk and anarchy movement. This has nothing to do with any organized religion. Sure, some people are religious whatever they are, but being straight edge and religious are two separate things. --Nitret 01:29, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

most of this article is lacking in maturity and professionalism — Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.161.178.83 (talk • contribs)

not a philosophy

A "straight edge" lifestyle is not a philosophy. Perhaps this could be expounded on. 11:28 UTC, 10 Oct 2004

real NPOV problems

There are some real NPOV problems with the straight edge page.

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Perhaps you could outline them? --cprompt

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The following was moved from the Minor Threat page, but is way, way too non-NPOV to be part of an article: This 'movement' was never advocated by singer Ian Mackaye, who thought of it as more the personal choices that he had made in his life than a worldwide revolution.

Unfortunately, the movement suffered from subversion in later years, with tales (not always true - as with most secondary sources) of "straightedgers" beating up people for smoking. Straight edgers - or sXer's - were characterised by black crosses on their hands, which was customary in West America underage punk shows to differentiate those allowed to buy alchohol, and those too young. It was taken on by sXer's as a subversive way of "sticking it to the man" so to speak - subverting the mainstream for their own gain.

should be mentioned

I'll see if I can find a way to gracefully put them in, but it seems like the following should be mentioned:

• Ian MacKaye's later denunciation of the straight edge scene he largely spawned.
• Youth of Today's role as a major 1980s straightedge hardcore band.

Delirium 19:46 28 Jun 2003 (UTC)

straight edge is as follows No drinking alcohol (100% abstinance. there is no 99% alcohol free straight edge. Martini's, spirits and special occasions are no exceptions)
No drugs ( you do NOT smoke, you do NOT drink coffee [note: in todays day and age, caffien has found it's way into alot of food products. On the one hand, the emphasis on abstaining from caffien is slackened to make up for this, not to the point where one may consume more then a cup a day. Living this life style still means you rely on a drug to function, if 'coffee wakes you up in the morning'. On the other hand, many people are adopting more organic and vegan life styles. Do your best to live up to a label, not make it live upto your standards)br> No promiscuous sex (you are NOT straight edge if you choose what parts of straight edge you want to adopt. This is one of them. Again, in todays straight edge culture alot of kids disregard this. What does that prove? eventually people can smoke pot and be straight edge if enough people want it? That's an empty label. That's bullshit.)br>

Ian Mckay can be mentioned. But the subculture (as it is not a counter culture, since it is growing in popularity) has now become far removed from one man, especially since he doesn't promote it any more. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.161.178.83 (talk • contribs)

I agree -- this entire article is filled with NPOV issues. For example, try supporting any sentence that includes the words 'some' or 'many' with a verifiable source. An extreme of this would be that anyone can make the statement 'Some straight edgers commit violent crimes against women and children.' to add to the list of qualities sXe'rs have. It might not be characteristic of all edgers, but it's probably an accurate statement (as even 1 person constitutes as some). These are just examples and suggestions.

Sex is good

Most straight-edgers today do not refrain from sex; many of them are quite promiscuous (I must say I am in a minority among straight-edgers in liking the sexual abstinence aspect). In any case, I'm removing the bit about sexual abstinence from the four main points.--XmarkX 07:36, 8 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Well, it's definitionally part of the concept, since Minor Threat coined the concept with "don't smoke, don't drink, don't fuck", and I know at least a few people who consider it part of the lifestyle, so I added it back in. It seems to be somewhat of a controversy in at least some areas—some people actually consider the promiscuous people (the ones you describe) as being as bad as drug addicts (basically "sex addicts"), part of the hedonistic lifestyle that's essentially the antithesis of the straightedge lifestyle. --Delirium 06:54, Jun 9, 2004 (UTC)

I resally diasagree. The sex rule is ommitted by most Sxers, not just 'sometiems'. The connection between Ian MacKaye and straight edge is not that significant - MacKaye himself was not straight edge, nor was Minor Threat. Having a foundational influence on a movement does not mean that what you say dictates how the movement works. Minor Threat's songs are not an SXe bible. They are one of many influences on straight edge. Most straight-edgers are not anti-promiscuity, and to say they are on this page promotes a misconception. Many straight-edgers consider eating meat as bad as taking drugs, and many consider those who do not to be straight-edge. In contrast, I have never heard of a straight-edger who didn't consider someone straight-edge because of their sexual behaviour.

There really is a serious problem encountered by straight-edgers that so many people who are not sXe, even in punk circles, assume that straight-edgers are anti-promiscuity, or vegan or Christian. This encyclopedia should be about providing accurate information.--XmarkX 09:51, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I suppose it must depend on what circles you travel in—most sXers I know are anti-promiscuity, but not anti-meat-eating, and base much of their lifestyle on Minor Threat and a few other bands, like Youth of Today (in addition to having Minor Threat patches on their jackets and whatnot). Perhaps this differs by region? --Delirium 17:13, Jun 9, 2004 (UTC)

Hmm, another thought I had—what age people are the ones you're talking about? The sXers I know are mostly mid-20s or older, so this might differ amongst the current teenage crowd, with whom I'm not familiar. --Delirium 17:19, Jun 9, 2004 (UTC)

It's true that the region I'm in, Australia, is probably not that representative. However, I'm basing my view also on the current stances of straight-edge bands and zines, from Europe and the US, which uniformly are interested in veganism and not sex. I refer you to very popular current sXe bands like Good Clean Fun and Rambo. People I am talking about range from 14 to 30, same trends among all of them.--XmarkX 01:35, 10 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I googled and found this:

From a Minor Threat interview in Touch & Go zine: "Ian: Like Straight Edge, people have taken it to an extreme...as far

   as i'm concerned all we did was put out an idea... if people wanna 
   hear it as preaching if that's what they want.  Straight edge to me
   is someone who is alert enough to benefit from what he or she is 
   doing...

   "Lyle: the drug and alcohol is only one side of it anyway, it's alot
   more than that, there are other things that can sidetrack you...

   "Ian: That's what "don't Fuck" means... alot of people think that to 
   be straight edge you can't drink, smoke, or have sex and that's 
   silly... what the don't fuck thing is that the whole getting laid 
   and getting head thing 

   "Lyle: living for sex

   "Ian: following your penis around is fucking people up more than 
   anything"

at http://www.faqs.org/faqs/cultures/straight-edge-faq/section-8.html

While modern straight edgers seem to have decided that it really does mean you can't drink or smoke, a lot of them hold the same position on sex as Mackaye did. Hope that helps.

Agreed. --Nitret 17:45, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

sex, drugs, alcohol, they all fall into the category of material/worldly entities that an individual can become attached to. just like food. anything pleasurable can lead to any severity of attachment. given the human body's physiological reward structures, the engagement in material pleasure is something natural for the human condition. of course, some things like alcohol are not exactly "natural" because they involve extensive human synthesis... but sex certainly is. perhaps somebody actually wants to make his/her ambition to be the ABSOLUTE detachment from such worldly entities (as with, say, hinayana buddhism). but if that is not the case, they have no place presenting their anti-worldly ethos as absolute or consistent (as straightedgers often do). this is why "straightedgers" are often criticized: they claim to have a hardliner, absolute ethos behind their "movement," however their ethos is anything but absolute or consistent as long as they: have sex (or masturbate), consume "junk food," consume caffeine (BIG one among straightedgers... many of whom have developed caffeine dependency issues, though they may not see it that way since somebody "drug free" presumably cannot become "drug addicted")...

Wrestler CM Punk is an avide Pepsi drinker, so there is some leiniency of the banning on the use of caffine.

Straight Edge is more of a Counterculture rather a Subculture

Straight Edge is more of a Counterculture than Subculture.

Counterculture is defined as - group's values and norms placed in opposition to the dominant culture. Subculture is defined as - a world within a larger world of the dominant culture. Each subculture has a disctinctive view.

But when Values and norms are in opposition to the mainstream values and norms it falls more into the Counterculture.

- A friendly Sociologist

Agreed. I don't think straight edge would have even existed had punk not generally condoned all of the things that sXe rejects now. --BDD 14:53, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Punk itself was a counter-culture. Straightedge - the counter-culture to a counter-culture - has become more a less-mainstream fashion coupled with more-mainstream ethics, putting aside the decision to be vegan. -Christopher Mayo, freelance counterculturist and philosopher. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.60.242.103 (talk • contribs)

Rise Against

Authough they have straight edge members one of them is not therefore they're not relaly a straight edge band, maybe they should be removed?

Anyone see the irony...

In a picture of someone with "Straight Edge" tattooed on their wrist?

I thought one part of being straight edge, at least in the circles I've been exposed to, was to not harm your body, and therefor, tattooing isn't really considered something "straight edge" people do.

This is a case of reading too much into it. Not drinking or doing drugs doesn't have anything to do with "not harming your body" - it more about thinking straight and thus tattos have nothing to do with it. Sean Bonner 02:42, September 5, 2005 (UTC)

Straight edge, for most, is about abstinence and self-discipline, what is and isn't straight edge is generally decided by the general consensus of straight edge kids, so considering 50% of straight edge kids have tattoos of some form, i'd say it is stil straight edge to have tattoos - Xsharksx 23:10, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I don't see why tattoos should be considered harming one's body. Tuf-Kat 00:43, Jan 1, 2005 (UTC)

I can see this point, but I have never actually heard of it being part of someone's edge - I am the only straight-edger I have ever met who has no tattoos. For most people tattoos are part of being sxe - I suspect you're confusing us with hard-line.--XmarkX 05:08, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I don't have any tattoos either --Xsharksx 12:38, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I have no tatttoos either. I in fact know of no sXer's in my community that have them. It's just personal choice.

Straight Edge is a movement against things that destroy lives/scenes/families/communities e.g. drugs, alcohol, lechery - it is not some new-age body purity diet! Those that adhere to the Straight Edge ideology can get tattoos and take aspirin when their heads hurt. Likewise, veganism has no part in Straight Edge - No one kills/fights/dies/tears apoart families and scenes because they ate meat, took tylenol, or got a tattoo. Please use your heads here and try to understand the really REALLY simple fucking ELEMENTARY reason behind Straight Edge. Sean Bonner said it exactly right: "Not drinking or doing drugs doesn't have anything to do with "not harming your body" - it more about thinking straight and thus tattos have nothing to do with it."

I want to extend on this irony-point: More than the thing about the tatoo - I am totally astounded that a movement who apperently recommend sexual restraint would use signs as 'XXX' and 'sXe', as the first of course is the videly used sign for pornographic content and the second, as the article says, easily could be pronounced "sexy". This sounds incredible bizar to me! --83.92.21.245 22:01, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

It's ironic, but I think it's more amusing-ironic than anything else. Although there are lots of stories about non-edgers thinking someone is stuck-up because their shirt says 'sXe'. Afee 23:08, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Youth?

Isn't it the case that the majority of the members of the straight edge subculture are young people? Isn't this fundamentally a youth movement? Of course, like any group without central authority, I am sure there are old(er) straight edge people, but aren't the vast majority people in their teens and twenties? Should this be mentioned in the article? I would add it myself, but for all I know the majority of straight edge people are 60-year-old punk fans... (somehow I doubt it) Nohat 08:30, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Yes, but only because most people "break the edge" once they get older ("sXe till 21!!" is usually joked about). Through a message board I frequented I knew of a 30-something straight edge guy. --macaddct1984 12:36, 3 March 2005 (UTC)

Well, if encountering a straight edge person who is over 30 is considered a rarity, then I definitely think it's fair to say that this is a youth-oriented subculture. I've added this to the article. Nohat 18:40, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I'm 30 and still striaght edge, and have many friends who are 30+ and still straight edge. I don't think that's odd at all. What would be odd would be for someone who was 30 to become straight edge. I think it's definitely something that takes hold in youth but isn't limited to that. If that makes any sense. Sean Bonner 02:34, September 5, 2005 (UTC)

Straight edge is as much youth oriented as any other subculture, similar to punk movement. I personally wouldn't mention any age relation. You really shouldn't draw any hasty generalizations from your acquaintances. And if so, most edgers i know are 25 to 35 years of age, including myself. --Nitret 23:53, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

I would argue that it is way more youth-oriented than other subcultures (punk as your example). When I was in highschool, my group of friends were about 50/50 edge/not. FF to 2006. I'm 27 now, and am the only person still edge. All the others broke years ago. However, we are all still into punk - many of them still in bands (just making more money than 10 years ago!) SnaX 22:40, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Im gonna put my two pence in here - actually I would say that straight edge (where I live anyways) is definately not a youth thing, apart from me,15, there is no-one who has even heard of straight edge really. Although there is a group of about 5 apparently in Dumfries, all of whom are older, like late 20's, 30s ish - with kids and jobs,, all of the people i know are into drinking, and some taking drugs, im the one who sticks out like a sore thumb ~~ and hey, straight edge isnt just a hardcore punk thing, it is mainly - but there are a few of us who aren't hardcore on punk (personally I'm more into metal, punk rock, goth and emo music) ~ but yeah hardcore punk is its mother, and father (please dont throw tomatos at me!!) but if you wish to yell at me over msn, or email - angelaheatherwaude@hotmail.co.uk ~~ 06 September 2006 ~~

Criticism

I think we ought to have a section for criticism or controversy. (I've joked with friends that every article on Wikipedia needs a "Controversy" section just because so many already do, but that's beside the point. :) ) Obviously, straight edge is not something that every one can agree on, and there is criticism. Many people I know, and I would count myself among them, follow many or all of the straight edge tenets but informally - i.e. if we ever did smoke or have loveless sex, we wouldn't necessarily beat ourselves up (pardon the pun) about it. I have also seen the movement criticized on the grounds that it is a label that is best rejected in favor of the aforementioned informal following. I have to say I agree with most of that, and it seems like MacKaye probably would for the most part too. Thoughts? --BDD 14:58, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I agree, but I'm too lazy myself. I feel the same way as you when it comes to the whole informal sXe thing. I don't drink (I think alcohol tastes gross), smoke, or do drugs, mainly because I don't want to be addicted to something harmful. I don't have a problem with things in moderation though, so I couldn't call myself sXe. Furthermore, I wouldn't because I get the feeling that a lot (but not all) sXe's are moralistic and clingy to the sXe ideas. I love the line from propaghandi's song Back to the Motor League, "wieners drunk on straight edge". Anyway, if anyone can eloquently put some criticism in, that would be great.

I think the word "Smug" could be thrown in there somewhere too

removal of "Deadhead" lyrics.

I took them out for two reasons:

1) They're not really relevant to sXe; the song attacks the band and the fans but never explicitly advocates the straight-edge lifestyle. (besides, just becasue someone is a deadhead doesn't mean the smoke up and get drunk - there are "clean" deadheads.)

2) Ian MacKaye didn't write those lyrics, Nathan Strejeck did. Perhaps the heading could be re-named "Influential Early sXe Lyrics" instead of "Influential Early MacKaye Lyrics" to incorporate more bands' lyrics?

political beliefs

I think this article could do a more expansive job of covering the political beliefs/orientation of straight edgers. The article mentions the ecology movement and the Animal Liberation Front; are a significant percentage of straight edgers supporters of those groups? Can we assume that as a group they have left wing views (marxism, anarchism)? Or perhaps they are more in tune with the right wing philosophy of libertarianism? If they are a genuine counterculture which stands in opposition to certain aspects of the status quo, then can we assume that this opposition extends into the political sphere as well? If any of the straight edgers browsing/working on this article have some info on these questions then I think it should be added. - Anon

I think the current "Although straight-edgers do not necessarily identify with a particular worldview on social or political issues, many do subscribe to precepts associated with anarchism, vegetarianism, socialism, veganism, environmentalism and the ecology movement." is really enough and in fact worth mentioning. However i think it would be far-fetched to go any further since it easily could end up with stereotyping. Nitret 00:22, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

I have to agree with Nitret because straight edge has been associated with as much from the left as from the right. In fact depending on what part of the country/word you are in the views of what straight edge is or isn't are vastly different when it comes to politics. Sean Bonner 02:37, September 5, 2005 (UTC)

Not all sXe people are right-wingers. For exanple, sXe wrestler CM Punk uses some leftist ideals on his website, such as when he was asked about gay marriage from one of his fans.

Is there is real belief that straight edge people are right wing? Ian MacKaye certainly isn't for example - he liked Skrewdriver until he found out they were racist. Perhaps somebody could provide some examples of right wing straight-edgers.

Well, Adolf Hitler didn't smoke or drink and he was involved in a long-term monogamous relationship. I bring him up because I want to illustrate the nebulous nature of our definitions for strait edge and because I am a smart alec. Cranston Lamont 08:08, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Well straight edge wasn't a thing then so it's pointless. There is a Neo-Nazi group who believe that they should be sober fight for what they believe. I don't think there needs to be anything about politics in it as it's a given that everyone will have different views on things and there is no political view points for other subcultures, like stoners for example. Libertarian/Anarcho socialism is closest to what I believe. XdiabolicalX 11:40, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Also Skrewdriver wern't always a racist band, they only became so after they reformed 3 years after they originally broke up, with only 1 or 2 original members. XdiabolicalX 11:52, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

sXe or SXE

I have told the first is correct Paul foord 4 July 2005 13:16 (UTC)

There's no right or wrong on this. sXe, SxE and SXE are used all the time interchangably. Sean Bonner 02:40, September 5, 2005 (UTC)

OMG Clothing & "backlash"

The following excerpt from the article is meaningless and stupid. The shirt is not an attack or "backlash" against straight edge in any way. This should be removed. "As one example, on the submit-and-publish T-shirt website OMG Clothing, one phrase that can be seen is "Straight-edge girls are SXE."" 9-29-2005

Further, i think it should be noted that much of the negativity including the "gang" status in utah is a result of the hard-liners, not the straight edgers, though the line between the two gets a little blurry depending on POV Dreamer.redeemer 03:41, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

hardline is the same thing as sXe they just take it to a differnt level, its kinda like veganism some sXe kids are vegans but its not a part of it. They just take there body and anything harmful to it very seriously, trust me im friends with them.

Userbox

There is a straight edge template for anyone who wants to put it on there user page. {{User sxe}} looks like this: Template:User sxe

I made my own, which is all black. You can copy it off of my user page if you'd rather use that. Fightindaman 03:44, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

What?

"Last year, a Phil Donahue episode" ...what year was that? (and why does the airdate matter?) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.194.151.4 (talk • contribs) .

Links

I re-added the links section a few weeks ago, because it is silly to not have a links section. Every good Wikipedia article should have links for further reading and information.

Today I have removed two links:

1: A merchandise site. I don't know if someone purposefully added their own store, or if someone just put it in to be helpful, but I don't think it is a good idea to start including links to merchandise for people to buy.

2: A link to sxe.com - there was already a link to it, it does not need a link to both it's main site and it's forums. One link is enough, which is still there.

New changes:

3: straightedge.com - is this site worth linking to?

4: sxe.com - After actually looking at this site, it links to a very poorly designed opening page with some inane ramblings and the owner asking for lots of money for the domain, then an obscure link to a very inactive forum. Hardly a necessary link?

5: straight edge online - this is a valuable resource, any reason aside from years old grudges, that necessitates the continual removal of this site from the links?

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5. a valuable resource according to the owner? Since I'm sure this is probably the person writing this. You talk about grudges and then ask for the removal of 2 sites from links? huh?

X

The "X" is talked about in detail in the beginning, but then is given a shortened section in the "overview" as well. I think they should be combined to add coherence to the article, as in, only a short paragraph, and then the bulk of the section about it (especially the part about the CD cover, etc) should be moved into the main part of the article. --Ecurran 00:33, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

DIY, man! Be bold! Mgekelly - Talk 03:14, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Intolerance

The ranks of the straight edge culture, like fundementalist Christianity and fundementalist Islam, are filled with intolerant hawks. The majority of straightedgers I have met are at the very least condescending towards those fellow humans who do not choose to believe exactly as they do: the ethical decisions to abstain from drugs and meat-eating are viewed as binding upon all of humanity by many straightedgers, much as Jews view the Noahide laws as binding on all citizens of the world. Some straightedgers go further, escalating to violence in an attempt to 'convert' others to their thought.

It matters not if the ethical decisions made by straight-edgers are correct. It does not matter whether they are well or poorly reasoned, or for that matter reasoned at all, or just adhered to like any other social institution because of pressure from peer groups. What matters is that No man has the authority to make ethical judgments for another, and that the majority's concurrence does not make a particular statement correct.

I tolerate straight-edgers - who live their lives in a way disagreeable to my personal conscience and consciousness - every day of my life, but am tired of them preaching at me - to the point of verbal, and nearly physical, violence (intimidation in every way imaginable) - even more, far more so than your run of the mill Evangelical Christians. Here, I say my piece - hopefully someone will listen and talk to their friends - tolerance is a virtue, and no ethical decision is binding on everyone - only those who choose to accept it with their God-given free will.

-Christopher Mayo, freelance counterculturist and philosopher. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.60.242.103 (talk • contribs)

Your point????

To be truly open minded you have to be open minded to those therorys that aren't open minded but still open minded to open mindednessisity MegaloManiac 17:22, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

But also I think people who call them selve open minded are just people to cowardly to have an opinion because every one whith an opinion is hated by liberal filth. I support any one who fights for what they believe. from the troops to the terrorist MegaloManiac 17:22, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

...But what if they're fighting for their belief in liberalism and openmindedness?

I am "close-minded" in many of my views (meaning, I will not change them on a whim or on another's demand), but not to the point of completely and utterly disregarding another's the moment I find it to contradict my personally-held beliefs. I do not believe it is necessary to accept "close-minded" worldviews in order to be open-minded, but that is for a discussion of logic or philosophy - not encyclopedia writing - and has no relevance to my rebuttal.

This is an open-source encyclopedia - not the place for pushing an agenda, personal or political. In the name of good - even mediocre - journalism, works purporting to be factual must indeed be kept factual and unbiased to the best of one's knowledge and ability - Wikipedia calls this "NPOV". For the sake of neutrality, the author(s) of an encyclopedia or other reference book are compelled to keep an open mind to all ideas - even "close-minded" ones. Neutrality is not achieved by opposing groups hawking their equally-biased viewpoints at each other and leaving the reader to decode what has been written. "Close-minded" authors are not suited for encyclopedia writing, but the writing of editorials.

I am not a "liberal" - I am a libertarian minarchist or anarchist-capitalist, very much in opposition to both mainstream "conservatism" and "liberalism" in America (I cannot speak for other countries' political affairs, in which I am not educated). I cannot claim to be unbiased, but a phrase such as "liberal filth" is, in my opinion, not even fit for an Op-Ed, let alone an encyclopedia.

Not to attack the messenger: insofar as I can determine, MegaloManiac, you chose your name well.

-Christopher Mayo, freelance counterculturist and philosopher. 69.47.165.223 06:54, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Origins of "Straight Edge" term

I had a paragraph noting that the term "straight edge" as an indicator of vegetarianism or clean living has actually been around for at least 100 years, with citations. It's been removed twice now, on the grounds that the term back then wasn't associated with the punk-affiliated movement it is now. Which is true, but I still think it's quite noteworthy; especially since the article without it gives incorrect information, claiming that Ian MacKaye invented the term. What do people think? Korny O'Near 03:51, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Unless you can prove that Ian Mackaye had heard of/was influenced by this restaurant, then saying that he invented it is accurate. Was he the first to invent it? No, but if he didn't borrow it then it makes no sense to point out that it was used earlier in a completely unrelated context. Fightindaman 04:05, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, I disagree. I think the old and new term are close enough in meaning that it couldn't have been a coincidence. Anyone else? Korny O'Near 15:05, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Backlash and criticisms

There is no source for this info, and there ought to be KurtFF8 04:03, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

~ Hardline does not exist anymore and referring to militant straight edge as hardline is inaccurate. They are 2 totally different things with 2 different agendas. The only thing they have in common is drug free, hardline encompasses a lot more and wasn't involved at in Reno.

Are sXe ppl naive of drugs?

i'm yet to meet an sXe member with accurate information about drugs, instead they seem to be fueled solely by anti-drug propeganda. Their may be a subgroup among sXe ppl who DO know their stuff but as far as i can tell they are a minority. Along with Christopher Mayo above the majority of sXers i meet are intollerant, and i'll add "Naive" to that as well. This may be a flaw inherent with the sXe philosophy, but more likely they are unfortunate yet typical issues aising from any campaign to teach absolutist morals to children or adolescants - it fosters an attitude of moral elitism (via moral scapegoatism), while giving an ideological excuse for drug-naivety (and fear) instead of education. At the time this is just personal research, so some input from an educated sXer would put the issue to rest. Otherwise the worldview comments in the article should be changed to indicate that sXers do indeed collectively share the worldview of the war on drugs, with a link to it's article. 220.253.93.180 17:08, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

nxoxpxoxixsxoxnx! txrxuxextxixlxxlxdxexaxtxhx! most members of the human cultural genus of Emo Kids are as lame as christopher reeve, and "SxE" with drugs is no exception. Joeyramoney 23:27, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

To be fair, some individuals who self-identify as sXe are naive and absolutist. Then again, there are jerks and militants in every group. I'm a sXer, and I do know my stuff when it comes to drugs, both legal and illegal. I simply choose not to partake. Politically, I support the legalization of all drugs, even though I don't use. Doesn't mean that I don't think using 'em is lame and disrespectful to one's body; just means that I don't think that the definition of "lame" should be codified legally, and that I think people should be free to control their own bodies. Also, some of what you see as "moral elitism" might just be frustration with always having to hang out with people who are drunk, stoned, or otherwise out of it. I sometimes find myself going on the defensive; after all, after explaining to the same person six times, that no, I don't drink, but I appreciate their offer, I get a little testy. In other words: some sXers are naive. Some aren't. Not all agree with the War on Drugs, and agreeing with it isn't a requirement to be sXe. Separate issues, mate. DarkAsSin 16:44, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

I am straight edge, I know about drugs - more than I'd like to, I've seen my friends get addicted and over dose on the things, and its not pretty, discovering one of your friends collapsed on the bathroom floor of your school with a needle in their hand - being SxE to me is saying that I'm not gonna do that stuff and encouraging younger kids not to too, showing that they can be cool wothout doing drugs. I have seen far too many of my friends make a mess of their lives through various drugs and alchohol - one died leaving his 16yr old girlfriend to raise their kid by herself. I dont want to be there. If you think I am niave then thats your opinion, maybe I am, I dunno. If you want more email me, angelaheatherwaude@hotmail.co.uk ~~ 06 September ~~

Since when was being straight edge about being cool? Or perhaps I am naive enough to believe people call themselves straight edge because they genuinely believe in what they are doing. Speaking of drugs I'm surprised nobody has mentioned that Ian MacKaye wrote the song Straight Edge because his friend died from an overdose. By way I wouldn't leave your email address on websites unless you want tonnes of spam Paul Tew 15:34, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

List of Straight Edge Bands/Groups

Does this really need to be here? There's already a wiki entry for it here. I suggest either merging that page with this one or removing the list from here. --Mcr hxc 16:30, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

"Per a recent debate, this list is to be categorized. Once categorized, it will be deleted. Please do not remove this message." XdiabolicalX 22:40, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

The list if up for deletion debate Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of straight edge groups (second nomination) Paul foord 13:01, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Straight edge is now bigger than the hardcore punk scene - thats where it will be biggest, but there are other people who are Sxe Too ~ 06 sep ~~

What is has become

I am surprised there is not a section in this article describing how Straight Edge has become little more than a self-righteous, condescending GANG who feel that they are somehow enlightened by their brain washed, disciple-like beliefs. Because of this, they find it morally sound to use violence as persuasion, or simply shoving their beliefs down the throats of "non-believers", but at the same time, threatening others not to shove their beliefs down theirs. Yes, I have heard straight-edgers refer to themselves as enlightened, but it is truely ironic. If anything, straight edge has degraded to a Neanderthal-like tribe with pseudomodern-day Christian morals. Sickening. At least African American gangs don't try to act somehow socially evolved, because they know they are not.

Um, it mentions hardline. And not all sXers are like that, you are making blanket generalizations based on the actions of some sXers. If you can find neutral and reliable sources, feel free to add more to the criticism section, but please do so in a neutral tone. And btw, Neandertals were actually not that bad. Shanidar 1 seems to indicate altruism and compassion in the form taking care of the disabled. Ritual burials of the dead also seems to indicate respect and compassion for others in their group. Just thought you should know. And amazingly enough, there are even some truly compassionate christians in the world too. Some of them even respect other people's beliefs! Perhaps work on that whole over-generalization thing, since you're bound to upset people when you go on the offensive like that, especially with no prior provocation. Ungovernable Force^{The Wiki Kitchen!} 09:31, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

I have truely been pwned; my hat is off to you sir. In all reality, I did this as an almost test, or perhaps experiment, to see what kind of reactions would spawn from such an opinionated, antipodal outlook on the matter. You probably handled the situation even better than I would--a self-proclaimed expert on the matter (from experience, naturally).