Jump to content

Talk:Latter Day Saint movement

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Impending (talk | contribs) at 10:36, 26 September 2006 (→‎Merge discussion). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Note: This article is a very small part of the Wikipedia:WikiProject Latter Day Saint movement. Before adding content to this page, please visit the project page, see List of articles about Mormonism or discuss your ideas here so you can get a feel for the structure of the Mormonism area of Wikipedia.

Purpose of article

Is there a real difference between this term and the term Mormonism? Hawstom 20:54, 4 Feb 2004 (UTC)

No there is not. Any extra material here should be merged into the Mormonism article. B 22:53, Feb 4, 2004 (UTC)

Actually, there is. While Mormonism is a set of doctrines, practices, and cultures, the Latter Day Saint movement is a movement. (It's also more acceptable to the CofC). Mormonism isn't really a thing that "happened", but rather a thing that "is". Thus, the title history of the Latter Day Saint movement is more appropriate, I think, than the title "history of Mormonism". It's a subtle difference, but I think an important one. COGDEN 04:04, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Actually there is not. Mormonism is a movement as well as a set of doctrines, etc, among other things. You're drawing a distinction that really doesn't stand close scrutiny. history of the Latter Day Saint movement could just as well be styled as "early history of Mormonism" or "early history of the Latter Day Saints" or some such. Even more problematic is that the phrase "Latter Day Saint movement" is not common place among scholars nor even the greater part of Latter Day Saints. B 04:29, Feb 5, 2004 (UTC)
The term "Latter Day Saint movement" is quite common among scholars (except for Latter-day Saint scholars) and is in common use in several Latter Day Saint churches. Do a Google search. Moreover, there are several books and articles entitled "History of the Latter Day Saint Movement". After a little research, I've also found rare references to the "Mormonism movement"; however, this term is not quite the same as "Mormonism" either. Whether this article is called the "Latter Day Saint movement" or the "Mormonism movement", the addition of the word "movement" alters its meaning sufficient that "Mormonism" and "Latter Day Saint movement"/"Mormonism movement" are not strictly synonyms. As long as they are not strictly synonyms, they should have their own article. And I don't think they are precisely synonyms. For example, while the Nephites could be said to practice Mormonism, you can't say they are part of the Latter Day Saint movement. Likewise, while a church such as the New Covenant Church of God is no doubt part of the Latter Day Saint movement because of its origins, it is a stretch to say they presently practice or believe in Mormonism (they classify themselves as Evangelical Christian, and they consider the Book of Mormon to be a fraud perpetrated by fallen angels). COGDEN 14:08, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Fair enough, Latter Day Saint movement is more common than I thought, and I won't argue the point whether it is not synonymous with Mormonism, but my main point stil stands: there is not a significant enough distinction to merit it's own article. Whatever distinction there may be should be spelled out on the Mormonism article. Also note, it's anachronistic to suggest that the Nephites were "Mormons", and the New Covenant Church of God example is unpersuasive...it is no more a part of one than it is the other. B 18:34, Feb 5, 2004 (UTC)
If we MUST have separate pages, we better define well their purposes and keep them self-contained. This redundancy business is getting out of hand. We are saying the same thing over and over and over. We should NOT say anything on this page (that is about an obscure term more than anything else) that can be said elsewhere. I still think this page should be little more than a redirect, if anything more at all. Hawstom 16:32, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC)

OK. I have to admit this page is pretty well focused. Here is a specific thing we need to address about this issue--the list or hierarchy of churches/groups. Maybe one of us needs to start a hierarchy of churches/groups. Where is/should each group be listed? On this page there does need to be some description of who is included in the notion LDS movement, but this needs to reference other pages instead of restating the same points made in other articles. I propose two rules for this page:

  • This page is solely focused on WHO is considered part of the LDS movement and what UNIQUELY distinguishes the LDS movement from Mormonism.
  • This page uses references instead of original text where possible to refer to groups and definitions. Hawstom 16:44, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I agree that the term Latter Day Saint movement is much more limited in scope than Mormonism. While you might argue that part of Mormonism is a movement, you can't argue that the movement is Mormonism, because it's so much more. You only view it as a "movement" in the context of institutional history. However, for that particular purpose, I don't think there is any better term. It is especially useful in the title of the article History of the Latter Day Saint movement, which is an institutional history of the movement, but not a detailed history of all the doctrines, practices, and cultures of Mormonism (because there are too many of them and they have their own articles). So I agree that the article should be small, but I think it must at least include the following: (1) a detailed definition of the term Latter Day Saint movement and how that movement differs from similar movements such as Restorationism and the Restoration Movement, (2) a link to History of the Latter Day Saint movement, and (3) an indication that the movement resulted in Mormonism (a set of doctrines, practices, and cultures).
You indentify some good points. At the very least, we can agree that there should be some acknowledgement of Latter Day Saint movement whether it gets its own article or a redirect. I don't have anything else to add at this point, and I don't think it hurts for this article to stand at least for now. I hope this discussion helps inform other interested folks why this article is here in the first place. B 02:22, Feb 6, 2004 (UTC)

I like to think that Mormonism, especially Utah Mormonism is a culture, but it applies to a great degree to we in "prairie" churches as well. You can be a stonecold atheistic member a high priests quorum in the Celestial Heights 100th Ward of Mt. Kolob Stake and still appreciate Mormon mores, attitudes, political sentiments, heritage etc. I think all of us probably know a few "cultural Mormons" and if not then we know of them...folks like Sterling McMurrin or Eric Ericson come to mind. I regard myself to be Mormon, mostly because I was raised in a Mormon culture and I'm RLDS, but start talking theology with me and I'm on the eastern orthodox end of the historic Christian spectrum. And there's a lot of folk that I know who are just like me....I ain't that unique.

Where "LDS movement" fits in

Within (this is an important NPOV declaration) Christianity there is a heritage/movement/religion that stems from Joseph Smith. It is complex and controversial. What is it called? Let's call it Christianity.JS Hawstom 17:08, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Within Christianity.JS there are camps, normally called churches. They have names. They are all a part of Christianity.JS .

Within Christianity.JS, are we saying the different churches can be classified into Christianity.JS.SubJS.Group?

I say, Let Christianity.JS = Mormonism

I ask, how do you classify the groups? By history? By belief? By association? By heritage? Community of Christ and LDS Church of Christ are both Christianity.JS churches right along with FLDS Church of Christ whether they like it or not. As long as you mention JS and the Book of Mormon in your group without vituperation, you are either Christianity.JS or you are universalist.

So what do you propose are the Christianity.JS.SubJS groupings? Are there really any, or is it simply a meaningless matter of internecine bickering that is meaningless to the greater world?

I say, Let Christianity.JS.BY = Brigham Young Mormonism or Utah Mormonism Let Christianity.JS.JS3 = RLDSism, but I don't know what the name is. Hawstom 17:08, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC)

New to Wikipedia, and I made some changes (attributed to 64.66.218.206) before realizing changes should perhaps be discussed. Just jumping in to identify myself and let you know why I made the changes. I changed membership numbers because LDS.org indicates a worldwide membership of 11,985,254 as of 12/31/03. I added a statement, also quoted on the lds.org site (http://www.lds.org/newsroom/page/0,15606,4043-1---15-168,00.html) about referring to splinter groups as Mormons. I hope I haven't stepped on any toes. The whole concept of articles open to anyone for editing is amazing. You have all done a fantastic job. teufelhund9 14 Jun 2004

Almost the entire text of "Major Denominations" was a discussion of the term "Mormon" --- I moved that text to the article: Mormon, where most of the rest of that discussion was already found. I moved information in the header to the header of the new "denominations" section. --John Hamer 02:34, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Merge discussion

I do not think that Latter Day Saint movement and Mormonism should be merged. Let me explain why. To me, Mormonism is merely a subset of the movement. Latter Day Saints claim that Joseph Smith was inspired. Some reject that he "translated" the book of mormon or that he was indeed a prophet like he said he was, whereas, they still think he taught good things and adhere to his teachings. Many of the more recent Community of Christ believers would fit this mold. They've shed themselves of part of his divine calling, without rejecting their history. However, I do not think you can belong to Mormonism if you reject the teachings of the Book of Mormon as some in the Movement do. Amother example, Sidney Rigdon, after he left the church didn't use the BOM, however, his church was definitely tied to Smith's teachings and wouldn't be called Restorationist, but part of the Latter Day Saint movement. Mormonism also contains a certain level of culture that are not shared between the "utah church" (LDS) and the "missouri church" (CoC), because of the emphasis on the BOM. Mormonism is the culture created, the history, the doctrines and speculations. The Latter Day Saint movement has no shared culture, shares some doctrines and speculations - although they may vary - but it does share a history. I think we should do a better job at distinguishing, rather than merging. -Visorstuff 21:17, 8 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Also, this page is mostly just listing a whole bunch of different sects of Mormonism. It has a little info at the top, but is somewhat akin to a disambiguation page. The Scurvy Eye 23:49, 8 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I suggested the merge because this article identifies the two as the same thing (due to a recent edit). The opening paragraphs are also very close to each other. I would agree to making more of a distinction between the two articles rather than a merge. I'd be up to have someone just doing it, if no one objects by Saturday. Val42 04:00, 9 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Yes there's a huge difference between Latter Day Saintism and Mormonism! we've got the RLDS, the CoC, the Temple Lot folks and God knows who else that are Latter Day Saints but not Mormons. --Nerd42 15:46, 20 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Nerd42, I Lovez the CoC!!!!1!! 68.2.143.22 02:22, 15 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The opening paragraphs of the two articles sounded very similar which is why I suggested the merge. After the discussion here and more research on my part, I removed the "suggestion to merge" and actually made a clear distinction on both of the articles' pages. If I made incorrect "corrections", please fix them, but pleast do not muddle the distinction between the two articles (like it was before). Val42 04:27, 23 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Incidentally Gateman1997, I disagree that it only refers to LDS church members. The recent "survivor" contestent considered himself "Mormon" but was never baptised. Cultural mormons are common, as the shared history of offshoots of the LDS church and Strangites, which HAVE to be included as part of Mormonism, as they self-identify as such. The Elizabeth Smart kidnapping is part of Mormonism, yet, "David" was not an LDS church member. Mormonism is bigger than the LDS church, and contains culture, history, doctrines and beliefs stemming from Belief in the BOM, but the LDSM contains much bigger, as many reject the BOM itself in the LDSM, which has not shared culture, and only some shared history, and little shared doctrines. -Visorstuff 16:52, 23 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

That may be true, but not only is Mormonism bigger than the LDS church, but the Latter Day Saint movement is even bigger than Mormonism. (see my previous post) --Nerd42 18:10, 23 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Okay already. I've removed the suggestion to merge. Rather than continue to discuss the merge discussion (that no longer exists), let's get back to improving the articles. Val42 18:19, 23 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]


They should be merged. All above mentions follow Joseph Smith's teachings, the page is about his teachings anyway, so that goes to reason they read the book of Mormon therfore Mormons.You can want to seperate your modern church from its past however its past can't be changed. The current "big" branch is still preaching about Smith and Young and they were part of the Latter Day Saint movement.

This is not the main reason I suggest the change however. They should be merged because all the other religions I've read about on Wikipedia include the movements or beginings on their main (only) page. As in Buddist getting only a Buddism page, Hindus getting only a Hindism page and so on. If they are not merged then I feel that all of the other religions should have similar adjustment to the Mormons. As the Mormons have three (3) different listings as of today, Sept. 26 2006, Latter day Saint Movement,Latter day saints and Mormons. They should all be listed under Mormanism.

^_^ --Nerd42 20:17, 23 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

There is a link to this article from the Exmormonism article, backed up in the discussion section of Exmormonism. It seems only logical that there should be a link back. greenw47

Humanistic Mormonism

How is Humanistic Mormonism a branch of Utah LDS Christianity? It does not appear to be a religion at all. The Jade Knight 23:26, 20 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

RLDS section

As the RLDS/Community of Christ is the largest denomination (including it's own splitoffs) outside of the LDS church itself, it deserves it's own heading. Surely we can come up with some kind of system to arrange the denominations by their size. Perhaps some creative soul can draw an illustration of a sort of "family tree" of the splitting factions. --Nerd42 20:27, 23 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I checked out the revision with the Community of Christ in its own section. I think that it is part of the "Prarie Saints" denominations and the largest of them, so it should lead the list of them. The schisms that developed from there should be indented under that, like you have done with it in its own section. Val42 21:18, 23 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree. The CoC is the only denomination listed to have more than two bullet points under it. In fact, the ones listed aren't even comprehensive of the number of groups that have left the Community of Christ. If the Community of Christ ought to be described as a "prarie-saint denomination," though I have no idea where that term comes from, (perhaps the article ought to enlighten me on that point, or perhaps it already does somewhere that I haven't noticed) then it ought to have it's own subheading under "prarie saint denominations" as it is so large and has so many detractors and subgroups. --Nerd42 21:30, 23 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

lol even anti-mormons see the differences between the LDS and RLDS

http://www.blueletterbible.org/study/cults/exposem/xm09.html

I can't guarantee the accuracy of the link of course, but thought the information might be helpful for editors. --Nerd42 21:35, 23 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

February 2006 intro

Nice intro. Tom Haws 19:14, 7 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The original church

The following (or close to it) appears three times in this article:

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints -- organized by Joseph Smith Jr. -- 1830. The original Church (see Rocky Mountain Saint Denominations below).

While I personally agree with this statement, it has the appearance of POV. If the name of the church was changed from "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints" to "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" before Joseph's death, then the statement is true (but the wording should be changed). If not, then the statement isn't true and needs to be changed. I know that this is an issue that has been brought up before, but when was the name changed? Val42 03:16, 10 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

According to Wikipedia's article on the Church:
In April 1838, the full name was stated as "the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints"[citation needed], according to direction recorded in Doctrine and Covenants 115:3-4. When the church became a corporation in 1851, the legal documents used the current standardized spelling and punctuation, capitalizing the first article, "The", and using the British hyphenation of "Latter-day": The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. There is some dispute as to whether or not this was the official name prior to 1851, mostly because there was not standard spelling or punctuation in any church publications prior to that time and legal documents of the organization are not readily available. The church currently uses the word "The" as part of its official name, as opposed to a modifying article.
Note that it says that there was no spelling standard at the time. The Jade Knight 02:21, 13 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This is an interesting question to explore. One that Wikipedia cannot solve. There are four different parts of this. (1) The legal successor to Smith was (according to one court) James Strang. (2) The successor of church properties (which were all controlled in Smith's name) would be his son, JS III, according to probate laws. (3) other claimaints to succession, according to church policy and revlation, had no real claim (such as rigdon being in the first presidency or whitmer as president of the church "in zion") on succession, as the revelations do not allow for that. (4) The body of the saints, the "of Latter-day Saints" part of the church as a whole (more than 70+ percent) followed the leadership of Young. Since this is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, it is according to revelation and original articles of incorpration (D&C 20) that the body of the church, the governing body of the church is the "Latter-day Saints" who uphold and sustain, and determine who church leaders are (as they "agree" with God, but they could go against him, although it's not been done in our history). Saints don't realize the power they have in this regard, and why sustaining is such a sacred thing. But due to the church members at the time of smith's death rejecting the leadership, as a whole, of Strang, ridgon, whitmer, wm smith and others, according to church law, this would be the successive church. It is disputable based on the above points about strang and smith III, but is helped by the fact that Cowdery, who was an equal with Smith in the original incorporation as a leader, came back to the LDS church. The Latter-day Saints followed young, and therefore, "the church" decided to follow young, rather than strang. Those were the major two divisions that had supportable legs. Even if Strang was appointed by God to be the successor, the church membership rejected his claim, and therefore could not lead the church by church law. This, of course begs other questions, as to whether or not Strang's "revelations" were from God, but just not sustained or accepted by church members (as were Young's, Woodruff's and others) and therefore not valid and binding to the church, and it gets even messier from there. Hopefully this helps you to see the conundrum in this all. The LDS Church is the same church (as a body) but it may not be the rightfully appointed channel of succession at the time, although I believe it was. Hope this helps. -Visorstuff 20:51, 13 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Headings

Adjusted headings to be more accurate. At the formation of the movment it is most accurate to describe it as a cult, as it was a new tradtion (though broken off of the larger Christianity) that was seen by those outside of it to be outside the mainstream. Over the years the as the movement has grown many of the groups became sects as they have been seen less outside the mainstream. Do to size and length of existance, and regonition LDS and Community of Christ are probally the only two to truly have gained the status of a relgious denomination. Though as to some portions of Christianity see various LDS specfic practices as out of the mainstream, the LDS church may be both a religious denomination and a cult of Christianity.

Hi User:4.242.9.178. Because of the connotation of the word "cult," it is discouraged from use on Wikipedia. You may want to read the following wikipedia guideline: Wikipedia:Words_to_avoid and more specifically Wikipedia:Words_to_avoid#Some_terms_are_technically_accurate_but_carry_an_implied_viewpoint and Wikipedia:Words_to_avoid#Words_with_controversial_or_multiple_meanings. -Visorstuff 18:47, 14 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Denomination does not work, and the negative meaning of cult does not, but the actucal word is correct in describing the movment. As people misunderstand the word cult, I have left it out this time, but it is wrong to missuse another word in its place.

POV

I've added a POV tag as the introduction to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints seems to be very heavily pro-CoC POV. I don't think the brief descriptions in that section are any place to get into the complicated issue of the "true" successor to the original LDS church, particularly in the manner currently adopted in the article. I suggest that the description be shortened and simplified, trying to avoid the POV problems that the current suggestion contains. The Jade Knight 03:46, 15 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I would have to largely agree here. From a LDS Church perspective (and not mentioned at all in the section refered to here), eight members of the original Quorum of the Twelve stayed with Brigham Young and moved to Utah. Of the remaining four, they either simply dropped out of history altogether or formed their own seperate communities. It is from this basis that the LDS church claims to be the heir of Joseph Smith. Also not mentioned is that far and a way the bulk of those who called themselves "Mormon" in 1844 stayed with Brigham Young as well and for the most part moved to Utah. The RLDS (CoC) was mostly "converts" that came together after this date, and the rest of the other communities were also considerably smaller than the group which moved to Council Bluff and then to Salt Lake City. These facts are very much marginalized in the current article.
I could go on with specific theological points, and the supposed "legal claim" that the RLDS church has as the legitimate successor being formally tested in court really doesn't have too much basis in fact either. Courts are just as much a political arena as anything else, and there were strong political reasons to disenfranchise the LDS Church of Utah, where ownership of property in Kirkland, Ohio was hardly a pressing matter. It was more important to preserve title to the temple in Salt Lake City instead, which had also been confiscated by the U.S. government on more than one occasion. The RLDS church was simply in a stronger position to claim and maintain those properties with the right friends and contacts in the court system (and a general anti-LDS sentiment especially due to polygymy in Utah) that it wasn't hard for the RLDS church to win those cases.
The bulk of this paragraph perhaps could be merged into the CoC article (under differences of philosohpy with the LDS Church) with a much more neutral paragraph written that would simply state the facts about the group that moved to Utah under the leadership of Brigham Young, removing the editorization that is a strong POV. --Robert Horning 10:17, 21 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Robert, could you please begin with a rewrite of the paragraph. I am not sure, at this point, about merging into the CC article. Let's wait for comment from other editors. I agree that the current article is too heavy handed and POV. Storm Rider (talk)
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Latter_Day_Saint_movement&oldid=77881807"