Talk:Mishneh Torah

It should be noted that the Yale series has a separate volume 3b, for Sanctification of the Moon.

The Kapach edition should also be discussed.

Finding English Translations

I know that there is at least one other English language translation of the Mishneh Torah under way. I'll try to find details on it and add it to the article. RK 23:29, Feb 14, 2005 (UTC)

I added info on the Moznaim translation. Something should be mentioned of the recently-completed Frankel edition (Hebrew) and what it added. Avi-Gil Chaitovsky 13:59, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I am just starting to study parts of Mishnah Torah with my Rabbi, and as I do not know Hebrew yet, I would really like to find a reasonably sized and priced English Translation at least of the main text. The online translation projects look promising, but are just getting started, and I can not seam to find a published version as such. Are Frankel and Yale the only English hard-copies available. 17:06, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Editing the Article

I keep trying to add info about Mori Yosef Gafahh (Kapach)'s commentary and edition of the Mishneh Torah as well as a small amount of information about the fact that his community represent a remnant of those who have continued to keep Jewish Law according to the Mishneh Torah -- but someone keeps deleting the information.

Data for intro needed!

Where did Rambam write the Mishneh Torah?

NB the hebrew name for this work: משנה תורה.

In Egypt. JFW | T@lk 21:45, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Misreading of Source?

The citation of Responsum 140 is completely incorrect; Maimonides never says anything about having lectured on Talmud or Alfasi. He is describing what his student, Ibn Aknin, should be or has been doing.

Yemenites

Someone keeps on adding that some are reverting to the Yad as the main source of Halacha, especially Yemenites. There is no source provided, the section uses partisan (non-standard) spelling and terminology, and cannot presently be included. JFW | T@lk 08:55, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

I noticed that too and took a look. This is the one of the problems with the demand for "sourcing": Things which are common knowledge in some groups, but are not things that have been extensively written about (especially not on the internet), but which others are unaware of. I've noticed that people frequently demand sources for things they know little about, while letting things remained entirely unsourced for things that are well known to them...

In this case, it is common knowledge in religious circles in Israel. Rav Kafah was a highly respected figure in the official rabbinate, as is his student Rav Arusi (they both sat on the governing board of the Rabbanut), and their followers indeed have a movement for Yemenites to "go back" to the Mishneh Torah. Where can one find net links on this? I have no idea. With some library time I could probably find published references, but it's certainly not something I have the time and resources for at the moment. But once again, this is common knowledge in yeshiva circles in Israel (Religious Zionist ones). I suggest, instead of removing the information (which is entirely correct), that a template requesting sources be added, as well as a note on the anon's user page. Maybe the anon knows of some web links. The phenomenon is certainly important enough for its own section in the article.

As for the spelling, I don't want to open that Pandora's box :) I find it hard to see Wikipedia's spelling as "standard" either, but there will never be any perfect solution to this... Dovi 11:49, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Right on target Dovi. I'm the individual who has been adding the small section despite continuous deletions. Again, very well put. In each posting, by the way, I have included a link to an online translation of Mori Gafaḥ's intro to his commentary and text of the Mishneh Torah. If one would simply click that link he/she would find it. Along with the link I provided are a few links that someone else had already added at the bottom of the page - one is to www.mechon-mamre.org which also has information on Mori Gafaḥ as well as a text of the Mishneh Torah largely in line with the Yemenite texts along with the same website being of the perspective of keeping halakha al pe Mishneh Torah. The other link previously existing at the bottom of the article is a link to http://ronware.org/ This site is very unashamedly pro-Mishneh Torah l'maaseh (see http://ronware.org/rambam/ ). Concerning strange spelling, I assume you're referring to my writing Shulḥan Arukh as opposed to Shulchan Aruch and Mori Gafaḥ as opposed to Rabbi Kapach. The main reason for this is accuracy. Although others may disagree, I personally would rather be accurate and correct than inaccurate and inline with 'mainstream.' The definition of 'mainstream' varies according to who one asks anyway. I mainly write Mori Gafaḥ as opposed to Kapach because Gafaḥ is both a closer representation of how his students refer to him and closer to proper Hebrew pronunciation of his name. The same reason is true with 'Shulhhan Arukh.' Experts in transliteration usually represent the letter Heth (Ches) by writing an H with a dot underneath it; if they are unable to do so, they usually double an h (hh). I doubled the h because I didn't know how to put a dot under the h, though now I think I've figured out how to do that. Also notice that while I write Mori Gafaḥ I also included the pronunciation more popular with those who are not his students (Kapach). In short, I would understand if you guys want to change Shulḥan Arukh to Shulchan Arukh due to the latter being more familiar to most, although it would be less accurate. I would, however, be against deleting Gafaḥ altogether and only putting Kapach. We could write something like, 'Rav Kapach, better known as Mori Gafaḥ among his students, ...'

As for sources for proof that Mori Gafaḥ exists or that Rav Rasson Arusi exists...... what do you want? Their addresses? I can even give you Rav Rasson Arusi's home phone number if you want (though I'm not gonna do that). And just as pointed out by Dovi, why isn't the same level of sources required for Rav Shach or Rav Meir Simcha? Is it because they are such great rabbis that their names are expected to be known? Well, exactly. And for the students of Rav Gafaḥ, Rav Gafaḥ is no different. I can understand, in all honesty, that many 'mainstream' non-Yemenites may not be aware of Rav Gafaḥ, but I think this is largely due to a sad state of affairs. That state of affairs, in my opinion, is NOT so much that 'O he was such a great rabbi, how could anyone be ignorant of him' or something like that,' but rather more in line with the sad reality that our people unfortunately have acquainted themselves with a sense that they are many 'peoples'/'nations'/'torahs' under one term: am Yisroel. May we all fully return to HASHEM in upholding His Torah with humility, longing for truth with objectivity and reason, and with love. -- http://sagavyah.tripod.com

UPDATE I've added more references.... but you should know that there's no way absolutely prove something to people with just a few words. If they want to be certain of a matter then they must look into it for themselves to become certain. Additionally -- did no one notice the demand at the top of the discussion page where someone posted about Mori Gafahh (Kapach)? Someone at the very top says that "the Kapach edition should also be discussed." Seems to me that what I've been trying to add has been asked for since the discussion page opened. One more bit of info if you want: 5351119 is the Israeli number to Halikhoth Ahm Yisroel's office. Hope this helped ;)

OK, with sources this becomes a lot easier to verify for factuality. Please don't expect us to phone people. If you'd like your contributions to gain hold, then sourcing is probably one of the most important attributes (it flows, actually, from our tradition to state everything beshem omro). Sources need not be online - a book, newspaper article, journal article or even radio broadcast may be sufficient in many cases.

I agree that certain parts of the article require better sourcing, but then Wikipedia already has articles on both Reb Meir Simcha and Rav Schach, which are themselves pretty well sourced.

With regards to spelling: most English readers are intimidated by excessive diacritics (see heavy metal umlaut), and in my view Modern Hebrew transcription with minimal extras (e.g. apostrophes) should be used. I'm Western Ashkenaz myself, and if I were to write my own encyclopedia I'd use my own pronunciation (which bears remarkable similarities with the Yemenite one) but we're working for the general (often even non-Jewish) public here. JFW | T@lk 19:23, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

• I'm trying to make the section on Yemenites and Maimonideans more understandable to the average person by changing "Rav" to Rabbi, as well as referring to Dor Daim -- which is the specific term which many use to refer to Yemenites who usually more strictly go by the Mishneh Torah. The same term Dor Daim is sometimes incorrectly applied to all who strictly keep halakha according to the Mishneh Torah. These are important things to know. Additionally, I added links directly to Rabbi Rasson Arusi's website so that one can see it for himself -- and even a picture of him..... thought this would be something you guys would want -- a reference.. but am I wrong? Why was this deleted? - Yosef in Jerusalem

It's a bit tiring. How large is this movement you are devoting so much space to? Why do you insist on using Hebrew terminology in an article aimed at the non-Jewish public (e.g. halacha le-maaseh - I understand what this means but Trev in London and Hank in Vermont do not). JFW | T@lk 22:33, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

First of all, it's not really a movement in the sense of something new, such as the Breslov and Chabad movements which are part of the Hasidic movement. For some reason Hasidism isn't usually called a movement anymore, while those who keep Jewish law according to the Mishneh Torah are called a movement, eventhough they are much more historically established than the Hasidic movement. (See http://www.chayas.com/tamirfolder/ramtemenglish.htm for historical testimonies; more references are given in the Hebrew version of the same article.) What it is is the preservation of the way Yemenite Jews traditionally kept Jewish law and the way practically all Middle Eastern Jews kept Jewish law up unto whenever the Shulhhan Arukh or kabbalistic teachings reached their particular communities. I think it is VERY important to devout a few short paragraphs to the only community in existence today which represents the fulfillment of Maimonides purpose for writing the Mishneh Torah. No other community of Jews today use the Mishneh Torah in the manner that Maimonides intended it to be used. I added a short 3rd paragraph to give a little documentation and references because people kept demanding very specific references. I didn't realize 3 short paragraphs is so much space in an article that devouts way more than 3 short paragraphs to information about Jewish groups which don't at all use the Mishneh Torah in the way that the Mishneh Torah itself states [in its introduction] that it is intended to be used. I also don't see the problem with my using Hebrew terminology only one time in those 3 paragraphs when 1) Hebrew terminology is used much more than just once throughout the article [teshuva/responsia, etc..] 2) because this is an article which concerns the Hebrew people and it should therefore be expected that at least a little Hebrew terminology be used when called for -- if someone is looking so deeply into Hebraic topics that he came upon the article Mishneh Torah which itself is an untranslated Hebrew term, it would be useful for him to be aware of important terms commonly transliterated into English when discussing matters of Jewish law.. and 3) Trev and Hank can read the explanation of the term halakha L'ma'aseh given immediately after the Hebrew term in parenthesis (practical application of Jewish law) the same way that they can do so when they come across the word teshuvot (responsia), Madda (knowledge), Ahava (love), etc... I hope this helps a little.

can i suggest making a refence to Machon Mamre in the 'present day' section of the article. the 'about' section of the Machon Mamre site clearly defines their objective (which is to live by the Mishneh Torah), and they are experts in the field. it should be mentioned aswell, that Yemenites do not follow the Ramabam 100%, but that's for another time. however, there is a growing and substantial community of "Rambam purists", or "Talmidei shel Rambam" if you prefer. as for sources concerning Rav Arusi and Rav Kapach, see chayas.com. - adam

Although not all Yemenite Jews strive to go purely according to the Mishneh Torah, I think it is inaccurate to say that there are absolutely no Yemenite Jews who try to do so; and regarding the large percentage of Yemenite Jews who do not necessarily go purely/strictly according to the Mishneh Torah, -- in comparison to the vast majority of the religious Jewish world ... one may say that they do go by the Mishneh Torah, at least relative to most others. /omedyashar