Talk:White people

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Middle east , arabs, jews etc.

Some people here have been insisting that Middle Easterners, Arabs, Jews etc are not white people. I do not have to say and repeat what kind of ideology is linked to that kind of position:

1. US census says they are white.

2. Traditional anthropologists say they are white.

Look at the following links by important traditional anthroplogists:

http://dienekes.angeltowns.net/texts/coonmed/

http://dienekes.angeltowns.net/texts/hootonmed/

I have cut and pasted this part from Hooton:

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The Mediterranean Subrace. Probably the name, Mediterranean, is as good as any for a designation of the great subrace of basic, long-headed brunets that constitutes the largest number of Whites

....The definition of this type, based upon very extensive anthropometric surveys of Iran and Iraq, seems to me the most important addition to the knowledge of the contemporary White race that has been made in the last few decades

...There is not much doubt that the eastward extension of straight-nosed Mediterraneans of the Classic type provided the White basis of the early populations in southeastern Asia and Indonesia. They probably were the main carriers of the Aryan language into India at a much later date.

...Negro Africa abounds in mulatto peoples of ancient origin and often of considerable homogeneity. Most of these are tall and slender, and from their tendency to aquiline noses seem to have acquired their White blood from the Arab or Semitic type of the Mediterranean subrace.

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And this from Coon:

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Our area, from Morocco to Afghanistan, is the homeland and cradle of the Mediterranean race. Mediterraneans are found also in Spain, Portugal, most of Italy, Greece and the Mediterranean islands, and in all these places, as in the Middle East, they form the major genetic element in the local populations. In a dark-skinned and finer-boned form they are also found as the major population element in Pakistan and northern India.

The Sumerians were Mediterraneans skeletally. So were the ancient Egyptians, the Babylonians, the Children of Israel, and the Arabs of the early Islamic period whose skeletons I had the privilege of measuring at Nippur. A Mediterranean is a white man etc.

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See also what coon says about civilization (this is obviously addressed to those Nordicists who are always trying to imply that a "Nordic Race" is responsilbe for Western civilization or even Civilization):

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The Mediterraneans occupy the center of the stage; their areas of greatest concentration are precisely those where civilization is the oldest. This is to be expected, since it was they who produced it and it, in a sense, that produced them.

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Of course we all know that traditional anthropology is out of favour and often in contradiction with modern population genetics, and that the concept of a discrete Mediterranean sub-race no longer holds water. But the concept of a discrete "white" race or "European race" is also in contradiction with population genetics and we are writing an article here about white people as a racial classification.

I have often said what a bad article this is, based on very strange opinions, often those left over by extremist movements like Nazi-Nordicism. It is incredible that in a Wiki article those are the norms being followed.

I will not make any changes myself. I have tried too many times, to be reverted by "some" people. I will just leave this here as additional proof of the quality of this article and the big agenda that it hides.

Veritas et Severitas 05:03, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

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.....Yes, but this page is about he usage of `white'! If Osama Bin Laden (a supposed `Mediterranean' from the Arabian Peninsular) was being described as a criminal suspect, how many people in society would describe him as a "White male in his late 40's"? The issues about Mediterraneans raised (including their form found in India, - people who are almost never seen as white in the UK, regardless of how fair they are) make us revert back to the `who is white?' debate which has been going on for years in the past 6-7 archives of discussion!

Except for few of those who could "pass", mid easterners would be considered brown or black here. Include US census definitions in USA section since they are not the worldwide norm. To quote Margrave, we wont be dictated by the new world...LMAO...

DARK SKINNED??

My Oxford dictionary idenifies Mediterraneanms as being dark skinned anyway! why are they classed as `white'?? why aren't Japanese classed as white because they are white skinned?

Just see the above comments.

Wow, full of quality and insight. Veritas et Severitas 15:06, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

By the way, you seem to be British. Well perhaps you should know that there are people out there, and very important people, that say that you, the British, are mainly of South Western European (Read Mediterranean) origins. So, if Mediterraneans are not white, and white is supposed to be a race, why are Britons supposed to be "White"?.

Read two recently published books by leading population geneticists:

1. Blood of the Isles, by Bryan Sykes.

2. The Origins of the British, by Stephen Oppenheimer.

Here you have some quotations from the books. Conclusion: Britons are mainly of South Western European Origins, that is of Iberian origins (If you do not know what that is, well of Spanish origins). In my style, I introduce science, but I am getting bored of the street approach of contributors here:

As far as Blood of the Isles is concerned here you have some citations:

The maps and the data in the Scotland paper( See: http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=1393742006) have been taken from pages 290 and 292 in the book.

The book is full of interesting stuff. Just some relevant issues:

Page 280.

...the presence of large numbers of Jasmines’s Oceanic clan, says to me that there was a very large-scale movement along the Atlantic see board north from Iberia, beginning as far back as the early Neolithic and perhaps even before that. The number of exact and close matches between the maternal clans of western and northern Iberia and the western half of the Isles is very impressive, much more so than the much poorer matches with continental Europe.

Note: In this case he is not talking of the famous R1b. He is talking of other genetic markers.

Pages 281-82.

The genetic evidence shows that a large proportion of Irish Celts, on both the male and female side, did arrive from Iberia at or the same time as farming reached the Isles.

The connection to Spain is also there in the myth of Brutus………. This too may be the faint echo of the same origin myth as the Milesian Irish and the connection to Iberia is almost as strong in the British regions as it is in Ireland.

Picts….. They are from the same mixture of Iberian and Euroepean Mesolithic ancestry that forms the Pictish/Celtic substructure of the Isles.

Note: The European Mesolithic is also believed to have originated in Iberia. Sykes thinks that most Britons come from Neolithic migrations. Oppenheimer from Mesolithic ones. Both originating in Iberia.

Page 283.

Here again, the strongest signal is a Celtic one, in the form of the clan of Oisin, which dominates the scene all over the Isles. The predominance in every part of the Isles of the Atlantic chromosome (the most frequent in the Oisin clan), with its strong affinities to Iberia, along with other matches and the evidence from the maternal side convinces me that it is from this direction that we must look for the origin of Oisin and the great majority of our Y-chromosomes. The sea routes of the atlantic fringe conveyed both men and women to the Isles.

Note: I think it is clear that Sykes is talking of:

1. Subgroups of R1b. (Atlantic modal haplotype and other subgroups)

2. Maternal DNA.

3. Other matches.

Oppenheimer is more specific about those other matches. He claims that also the E3b and J lineages arrived in Britain from Iberia and also some I lineages (subgroups) that are present mainly in Iberia, etc.

And for the one hundredth time. Apart form using previous published material, Sykes has used his own samples: More than 10.000 samples from all over the British Isles never published before: A ten-year long job. No other genetic study either in the British Isles or in any other country has been so extensive yet.

As far as The Origins of the British, by Oppenheimer is concerned.

1. Huge book: 534 pages. Impossible to go in detail here. I would advise it before Blood of the Isles, because it goes into much more detail.

2. Main ideas.

Celts: He elaborates a lot on this using history, linguistics and, the big new approach, genetics.

Pages: Especially 19-91.

His conclusion: British Celts and British Celtic languages do not come from Central Europe. They come from Spain.

3. British population in general:

They are mainly of South-Western European origin. Exactly of Iberian origins (Spanish origins).

He gives ample genetic evidence, along with historical and archaeological data. The genetic evidence is about different genetic markers, including maternal and paternal DNA.

An exact quotation:

Page 375.

By far the majority of male gene types in the British Isles derive from Iberia, ranging from a low of 59% in Fakenham, Norfolk to highs of 96% in Llangefni, north Wales and 93% Castlerea, Ireland. On average only 30% of gene types in England derive from north-west Europe. Even without dating the earlier waves of north-west European immigration, this invalidates the Anglo-Saxon wipeout theory.

In short, all these new books using genetics in conjunction with historical accounts, archaeology and linguistics, are much more important than most people here seem to think. They will inevitably have a huge impact (they are having it already) about the views on the origins and roots of all British people and according to some people here about their "whiteness".

Both authors are from the University of Oxford and both books have just been published. Veritas et Severitas 03:22, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Black Irish and Scandinavians with black hair

How about the Black Irish and indigenous Scandinavians with natural black hair? Are they considered Whites too? --203.15.122.35 05:48, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

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Why were the above comments by Veritas included in the section on the usage of the term `white' in Australia?? The Australian section now looks like a complete muddle! I am from Australia not Britain as Veritas surmised and like I have stated, `white' is not used in the census as an indicator of ethnicity. Regions of Europe are. This is due to the fact that `white' is an opinion based subject, not one based on scientific fact. By the way, I do not deny the British peoples Iberian DNA, but bare in mind that much of Iberian immigration to the British isles pre-dated Moorish occupation as well as African slave importation as well. If the average Australian wishes to use the term `white' to identify what the word literally means, then so be it! It is not a scientific measure anyway. Southern Europeans in Australia would also be considered white if that's what they `looked' like in appearance! Nowadays, the term `Anglo' is becomeing more popular to distinguish Nordics from Meds. Globally most people would use the word `white' to identify an appearance rather than a person's DNA (which is not cosmetically noticible - lol) or their heritage. Be honest, many Mediterraneans do have an appearance distinctively different to Nordics, so if the appearance differs, then why shouldn't the perception?.