Talk:Blue Mosque, Yerevan

I do not understand reason to include azeri name for this mosque in Armenian. It is not part of present azerbaijan, it was build before ethnogenesis of azerbaijani race(in 1766, I think no one calls people Azerbaijanis by ethnicity, only by region in persia Adharbayjani as resident of a region including kurd and persian and all others, this latin script did not exist in 1766, azerbaijanis did not build this but the great persian khan of city. i can explain further.24.24.200.113 (talk) 05:17, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Thomas de Waal addressed this in his book:

That the Armenians could erase an Azerbaijani mosque inside their capital city was made easier by a linguistic sleight of hand: the Azerbaijanis of Armenia can be more easily written out of history because the name “Azeri” or “Azerbaijani” was not in common usage before the twentieth century. In the premodern era these people were generally referred to as “Tartars”, “Turks” or simply “Muslims”. Yet they were neither Persians nor Turks; they were Turkic-speaking Shiite subjects of Safavid dynasty of the Iranian Empire – in other words, the ancestors of people, whom we would now call “Azerbaijanis”. So when the Armenians refer to the “Persian mosque” in Yerevan, the name obscures the fact that most of the worshippers there, when it was built in the 1760s, would have been, in effect, Azerbaijanis.

Thomas de Waal. Black garden: Armenia and Azerbaijan through peace and war. ISBN 0814719457

So Azeri spelling is relevant and should remain in the article. Grandmaster (talk) 07:09, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Regarding the names:

• [1] - for the Azeri name
• [2] - for the Turkish name

The links were not provided in the article because the edit requesting the sources was bad faith; it only tagged the Turkish and the Azeri name. Parishan (talk) 05:51, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

"The largest mosque of Yerevan and. only one still preserved, the Gyoy or Gök-Jami, (gök means "sky-blue" in. Turkish) was built in AH 1179 or AD 1765/6..." [3]. Gyoy is the rendition of the Azeri Göy, and the Turkish name is also in the article. If there is a name, whose relevance and significance needs to be addressed, it is the Armenian name. Parishan (talk) 05:40, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

actually it calls it gok means sky blue in turkish and nothing about gyoy. you are a dirty azerbaijani liar and i cannot trust your translation and interpreting sourse would also be original research name is probably of turkic origin and not TURKISH and AZERI. as for meaning of name, kiesling says it means sky blue but on encyclopedia iranica under article of erevan it is kalled only gok jami and means mosque of heaven so meaning is not clear either and kiesling is not a reliable historian for critical survey of language or topics. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.125.213.123 (talk) 21:55, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, whatever. Parishan (talk) 06:03, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't see what the argument is about, or why it has got so vicious. All the names mean exactly the same thing - "blue mosque"! The name in English should be first because none of the other varients are as notable as it. The name in Armenian should be next because locally used names should take precedence. After that it is arguable, but I have chosen the Turkish one to be next because that seems to be more widely used than the Persian one. Meowy 20:24, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree. In addition, an Azeri name can be used if it's shown that it's not simply a translation of Blue Mosque to Azeri. A pre-republic use of the name is fine with me.-- Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 21:29, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Please pay attention, the Azeri name is shown in the Armenian source listed above, albeit using a different spelling convention (gyoy for göy). And even had it not been shown: regardless of its presence in sources, for over 200 years the mosque was the worship venue almost exclusively for the city's once majority-forming Azeri community. They certainly did not use the Armenian name to refer to it, and there was no necessity to "change" the name of the mosque after 1991. It is not an Armenian cultural site. If there was ever a translation, it would be the Azeri/Persian/Turkish name being translated into Armenian. What I can't wrap my head around is not just the adding of the historically alien Armenian name (what relevance does it have to this particular landmark? I'd say zero), but its listing above all the other names. If your argument is merely that it is situated in what is now Armenia, that is fine by me, but in that case, please be kind as to add priority-Azeri names for all the Armenian churches and monasteries located what is internationally recognised as Azerbaijan. Have we got ourselves a deal? Parishan (talk) 06:26, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Your comparison of Armenian vs Azeri doesn't hold water. Gyol is not 'Azeri', it is pre Kemalist Turkish and etc., it is one of the oldest attested Turkic words, it is even found in Tibetan for green/blue. In this manner I can say the name Azerbaidjan is an Armenian name because of it's Persian origins and since Persian and Armenian are both IE languages therefore Persian=Armenian. Kyol was first used to mean lake, long before any Azeri language existed. So Gyol or Gyoy (which is a modern manipulation) is basically the same thing as the mothern Gyok or Gok. And your source does not support this modern Azeri manipulation of the term where the Turkic and Persian terms are merged. You have to support that such terms ever existed. As for your claim that there was any Azeri identity in Yerevan that far in history, as discussed prior, it is not backed by any credible sources. Those people were Turkic speaking Muslims, period. The other variations of the Turkic word (Gyol) can be added, Turkish be replaced by Turkic, but the association between the Turkic and Persian word is a modern Azeri invention, creating an Azeri term not backed by historical sources. -- Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 19:01, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Is there a Wikipedia policy on this. A lot of the so-called "Azerbaijani language" (And probably a few of the "Armenian language" alternative titles in Wikipedia articles are nothing of the sort. It is actually "Azerbaijani alphabet", "Armenian alphabet", etc. I.e. they are actually the same name but spelt using different alphabets! Look here for example: Thaddeus Cathedral. Azerbaijani: قره کیلسه - Qara kilsə we are told. But Kara Kilise is actually Turkish, and is just rendered using the current alphabet used in the Republic of Azerbaijan. And the Arabic letters are exactly the same as the ones used to render the Iranian name (which is also just the Turkish name rendered using Arabic script). Meowy 23:44, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Astounding! :) People have no flipping idea whatsoever of what they are talking about, yet they choose to go on with their... agenda thinking they are experts in the field. Without hurting your feelings, neither of you realises how ridiculous this looks.

Eupator, for your information, göl (gyol - "lake") is a whole different word, unrelated to göy (gyoy - "blue"), which is of Azeri and only Azeri origin. The "y" at the end is the perfect indication of that, since in no other Turkic language does this word sound as such (Turkish: gök, Turkmen: gök, Crimean Tatar: kök, Uzbek: ko'k, Kazakh: kök, Tatar: kük, Bashkir: kük). Armenian does not have front rounded vowels, therefore in Azeri loanwords, "ö" in particular would be transliterated as a combination of "y" and "o" (the palatal glide substituting for the frontness of the vowel). For instance, Alagöz - Ալագյոզ; gözəl - գյոզալ . I would appreciate it if you refrained from wasting both of us's time on your baseless original-research speculations emerging from your appaulingly poor knowledge of the structure of Turkic languages. Manipulation-schmanipulation. The cobbler should stick to his last. Incidentally, there is a major lake in Azerbaijan's Khanlar Rayon called Göygöl (lit. "Blue Lake"). I hope you are not going to challenge that claiming the lake's original name is Göl-Göl, and them sneaky no-good Azeris manipulated it down to "Göygöl" for whatever reason. :)

The "Azeri identity" argument is pure nonsense. There are no indications of groups such as Dalmatian Italians identifying themselves as Italians until the modern era. The academic adoption of a new term to designate an ethnic group does not indicate ethnic transformation within the ethnic group. End of story, no need to bring this up again.

Now, Meowy. I am not quite sure how familiar you are with Azeri, Turkish, or Persian, as well as with the conventions of writing in Arabic script. My guess is: barely, if at all. While Kara kilise might be Turkish, it is not how the name of the landmark is pronounced in the Turkic language that is called Azeri and is spoken widely across West Azarbaijan, where the cathedral is located. The Turkish pronunciation of the name would be /kaˈra kiliˈse/, while the Azeri is /gaˈra kilˈsæ/ or /gæˈræ kilˈsæ/. The Arabic-script spelling differs from the Persian variant significantly (cf. the Persian: کلیسا vs. the Azeri کیلسه). And if there was ever a rendition, it was the Persian language adopting the Azeri name, not vice versa, as ghareh is not a Persian word, but merely a Persianised version of the Azeri qara ("black", cf. the Persian name for Karabakh: قره‌باغ - Gharehbagh). Parishan (talk) 08:13, 5 July 2008 (UTC)