Talk:George W. Bush military service controversy

Flight Physicals

The physical that they are talking about is a flight officers only physical, only required if one is going to stay on flight status. Any flight officer that doesn't take the annual physical for whatever reason, will be removed from flying duty no matter what the reason (including transfer to non-flying duty), it's standard procedure. I am sure even Chuck Yeager received formal orders grounded him from flight status after his retirement from the USAF.

Also mandatory drug testing was no instituted until the 1980's, and it was only mandatory for new enlistees. Existing officers (enlisted, or commissioned) only received drug testing after it was instituted in lots (for example a who unit would be tested), or after an accident.

As said by a guardsmen on a flying forum:

"I hope I don't run for President, because they would go apeshit looking at my flying records:

"He had to get rechecked in the Huey THREE times! He must have been a poor pilot....his medical clearance expired for a MONTH! What physical problems was he hiding? Why didn't he get a physical as required by regulation? He FAILED an evaluation in pilot training, more evidence that he wasn't the great pilot he acts like he is..."

And he said:

"One thing you need to understand to make any sense of this is the Guard is VERY flexible when it comes to your civilian occupation. Generally, if your civilian job takes you away from your unit in such a capacity that you can't make your traditional obligation (ie attend unit drill on the weekends), you can either make it up via other ways, or in some cases you can be exempt from attending altogether.

In short, the Guard can't legally force you to give up your civilian occupation just to serve with a particular unit once a month. If Bush left to work on a political campaign in Alabama, and the campaign is legitimate (and it was), then the Texas Air Guard can't force him to come back to serve.

Bush requested to transfer, and that was denied. It was denied NOT because they wanted Bush to come back to Texas, but because Bush was an F-102 pilot, and he wasn't trained to fulfill any other career field. Plus he requested to transfer to the Air Force Reserve, which is a totally different entity. AFRes is a Federal organization, whereas the TXANG is a state organization. Bush received a direct commission (which is legal and not uncommon in the Guard), but that commission was a state commission with Federal recognition. In other words, he was a commissioned officer in the TXANG, but the federal government recognized his authority as such. However, he did not possess a federal full commission. So he was ineligible to serve as a commissioned officer in the AFRes.

I know, it sounds sketchy to some, but that's the way it works. We had a guy who was direct commissioned in the LA ARNG back in the late 1990s, and after flying helicopters for a while he wanted to fly airplanes. He couldn't go to the Reserves because he held a state commission. He couldn't attend federal OCS/OTS (Officer Candidate School) because you can't hold a commission of any kind prior to entry. So his only choice was to transfer to the LAANG to fly F-15s, which he did."

—Preceding unsigned comment added by PPGMD (talk • contribs) 18:05, 20 August 2004

The issue isn't "how it works", the issue is whether Bush fulfilled his obligations under US law and military regulations. As a Ready Reservist with a Military Service Obligation (MSO) whose draft status was dependent upon fulfilling that obligation, Bush was required by law and military regulation to maintain his readiness to fulfill his role as a pilot with his unit at all times. Bush's MSO required him to attend at least 90% of the monthly training held by his unit each fiscal year, or at least make them up in the manner required under military regulations. He didn't come close to that in his last three years of his MSO. Bush's job title (technically, his Air Force Specialty) required him to maintain his flight status at all times, and that included passing a flight physical each year AND putting in an addition number of flight hours (technically, "Additional Flight Training Periods" -- I believe it was 12 at that time) each quarter. (This flight requirement was what Turnipseed was referring to when he authorized Bush to show up for substitute duty in Alabama when he wrote "Lieutenant Bush will not be able to satisfy his flight requirements with our group.")

The failure of Texas Air National Guard officials to enforce the regulations with regard to Bush has no bearing on the question of whether Bush fulfilled his service commitment, any more than a crooked cop who ignores a drug dealer means that no crime is being committed by the drug dealer. Bush's own military records clearly demonstrate that he failed to fulfill his duty, and that is really the only relevant issue. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.174.87.215 (talk • contribs) 09:53, 16 June 2006

He fulfilled his obligation, point blank. As a former Guardsmen this is how it works. There are many ways to interpret the regulations and still be withing regs while appearing to be in violation to a dumb son of a bitch like yourself. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.177.38.217 (talk • contribs) 02:16, 5 June 2007

William Turnipseed

After looking into Turnipseed's comments about the Bush AWOL story, it seems that Turnipseed may have been misquoted, or his statements taken out of context:

Walter Robinson cited retired Turnipseed, of the Alabama Air National Guard, as his source.

But in an interview , Turnipseed states that Robinson's reporting of their conversation was either distorted or based upon his misunderstanding of how the military functioned at the time of Bush's service. For Bush to be "AWOL" or "away without leave," he would have had to have been assigned to a unit and under its command.

Turnipseed states Bush was never ordered to report to the Alabama Air National Guard. He points out that Bush never transferred from the Texas Air National Guard to the Alabama Air National Guard. He remained in the Texas Guard during his stay in Alabama. This was confirmed by the Texas Guard. And Turnipseed added that Bush was never under his command or any other officer in the Alabama Guard.

Turnipseed added that Bush was informed of the drill schedule of the Alabama Guard as a courtesy so he could get credit for drills while in Alabama for his service record in the Texas Guard. There was no compulsory attendance.This was also confirmed by the Texas Guard.

http://www.suntimes.com/output/elect/cst-nws-banal11.html

How should the article be altered to reflet this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by TDC (talk • contribs) 16:59, 8 September 2004

Signature

I have read that the signature was confirmed to be from the same person by handwritting experts. If there is something saying that the signature is not exactly the same as others of the same name, but not neccessarily from a different hand, there should at least be mention that a handwritting expert consulted by CBS before airing the report confirmed that it was by the same hand. Kevin Baas | talk 17:51, 2004 September 11 (UTC)

Waiting list

From the CBS report:

The fact is that there is sharply conflicting information about whether a waiting list existed at all as of spring 1968 for entrance into the TexAND. As discussed previously in Section A of this chapter, Mapes expressed in a 1999 e-mail to her Senior Broadcast and Executive partners that "this squad did not have a waiting list" in 1968 and that the "Colonel who ran it appeared to keep about 20 places open at all times." Further, as discussed previously, Major General Hodges had also advised Mapes in 1991 that the Group had no waiting list, particularly for volunteers who wanted to be fighter pilots."

Page 141 http://wwwimage.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/complete_report/CBS_Report.pdf

Edit will reflect. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.80.249.174 (talk • contribs) 17:53, 11 January 2005

Attempts to change article on January 21, 2005

The following change, by 199.29.196.5, which seems somewhat rational, is not:

"The records show that George W. Bush earned 842 points during his first four years in the Texas Air National Guard. Using the 50 point per year requirement for the TANG, this amounts to almost 17 years worth of service. Adding in the 56 points for each of the last two years make the total equivalent to 19 years worth of service."

It's flatly wrong to equate 50 points to a year of service. While on active duty, for example, a service member earns 365 points. Using the logic of 199.29.196.5, then, every active duty service member is really doing SEVEN years of service every year. That's absurd.

50 points is the MINIMUM needed for a good retirement year. That's all. It's like saying that you have to work for a company for at least 1000 hours in order to qualify for vesting purposes for a retirement account. Someone who works 2000 hours DOES NOT get credit for two years.

"This fact has been glossed over by the media and political opponents looking to validate the story that George W. Bush didn't complete his service."

That's absurd. This "fact" appears to have been just discovered by 199.29.196.5. No servious source (including Fox, the Washington Times, or other conversative, Bush-supporting organization) has ever claimed that George Bush served the equivalent of 19 years. They'd be laughed out of town.

"By the 2004 presidential campaign, the media even went so far as to conjure up forged documents to try to make this story stick. That George W. Bush put in that much time and was honorable discharged has been ignored in this whole affair."

This is sheer point of view - extreme point of view. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.103.152.43 (talk • contribs) 20:49, 21 January 2005

Changes to "Six Year Obligation" section

I have deleted the entire paragraph referencing factcheck.org, because of redundancy, and factcheck's inaccurate representation of Bush's requirements. The paragraph was redundant because factcheck's sole source for the (non-existent) "50 retirement point" requirement was Albert Lloyd, who is cited in the previous paragraph. The factcheck piece is also inaccurate not merely for citing a non-existent requirement for Bush, but also in its presentation of Bush's training obligations. Factcheck said "The newspaper said Guardsman are required to serve 15 days of active duty to meet training requirements" which is a distortion of what was written in the cited article in the Boston Globe, which noted that Bush was required to perform 48 periods of inactive duty training. The records show that Bush didn't fulfill the 48 period requirement, a fact that FactCheck had to ignore to reach its "conclusions".

The Factcheck piece is full of distortions and irrelevancies (like citing 82 days served in during the calendar years of 1972 and 73, when the US military used the fiscal year in determining whether someone had met their obligations) and is wholly unreliable and intellectually dishonest. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.174.87.215 (talk • contribs) 13:19, 16 June 2006

Changes to "missed drills" section

I deleted the entire paragraph which stated that Bush did not fulfill his 15 day active duty requirement in FY 72-73. The writer cited only the nine days of credited active duty in May, 1973. However, Bush was also credited with six days of active duty in June, 73, bringing him to the 15 day minimum (notwithstanding the question of whether Bush actually showed up.)

I also deleted the phrase "as Bush had no intention of being in the military long enough to qualify for lifetime benefts" and replaced it with "as there was no actual requirement for Bush to qualify for six years toward retirement. (Fulfilling his actual training obligations would have resulted in far more than 50 points per retirement year.)" Although its obvious that the deleted statement is true, its also irrelevant. What is relevant is that the "50 retirement point" requirement did not exist for Bush.

Finally, I deleted (from another section) the paragraph that suggested that Bush was "punished" by adding six months to his 6 year term in the military. There is simply no justification for this implication. Under Federal regulations at that time, all officers who were "discharged" were actually maintained on the rolls in an inactive status for a minimum of six month -- (there was a special "group" called the Inactive Status List Reserve Section, which was a list of former officers who, with Congressional approval, could be reactivated if there was a national emergency.) Bush's "discharge" papers (http://www.glcq.com/docs/(74-05-01)arpc_nars-b_to_islrs.pdf) actually transfer him to ISLRS effective the date on which his MSO ended. An undated note (http://www.glcq.com/docs/(undated)arpc_discharge_request.pdf) from Bush asked how he could get out of ISLRS, and while there is no actual response to this request in Bush's files, the Air Force did apparently respond by sending Bush a "resignation form" from ISLRS which Bush submitted on 11-8-74 (http://www.glcq.com/docs/(74-11-08)islrs_resignation_form.pdf ) (this document was one of those that were released only because of the AP lawsuit).

(aside... there is a "50 point requirement" for officers in order to maintain their active status. To simplify, being in active status allowed one to accumulate time served toward gratuitous points; when someone was placed into an inactive status, they no longer accumulated that time served toward gratuitous points. (Bush was not "required" to maintain "active status", rather, as someone with a Military Service Obligation, the military was required to maintain Bush in an "active status" unless there was something very seriously wrong.)

This raises the question of Albert Lloyd's basic integrity, because the points record he cites as providing Bush with a full year for retirement in 73-74 was generated because Bush had been placed in an "inactive status" effective Sept 15, 1973. (See http://www.glcq.com/docs/points_1974_summary.pdf ) Had Lloyd cited this "status" requirement, the document he used would have raised immediate questions because it places Bush in an "inactive status" at a time when he needed all his gratuitous points to get to 50. My guess is that Lloyd understood this, and created the "retirement points" out of whole cloth, rather than bring attention to the fact that Bush was not collecting points toward time served as of Sept 15, 1973.)

paul lukasiak —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.174.87.215 (talk • contribs) 14:04, 16 June 2006

Changes to "Drill attendance" section

Changed the wording “filled out” to “submitted.” In the sentence. “Then, on May 24, 1972, Bush filled out a form requesting a transfer to the 9921st Air Reserve Squadron in Montgomery, Alabama.” We don’t know who filled out the form, the 147th’s FIG personnel officer, Rufus Martin, has acknowledged that he was involved in this bogus transfer attempt, and there are numerous significant anomolies (like the fact that Bush’s Air Force Specialty Code is entered wrong twice, not to mention the fact that the instructions at the top of the page clearly state that the form is to be filled out to the “present unit of assignment”, instead Bush sent it directly to Bricken) that make it clear that Bush was trying to pull a fast one with the help of Martin. )

Changed “according to” to “based on” in the next sentence “According to his application, he was already in Alabama at work on the Senate campaign of Winton M. Blount, “ While the application clearly implies that Bush is already in Alabama working for Allison and Trevalen, it doesn’t actually say it. Indeed, the “address and telephone number” provided by Bush for his then current residence was that of Allison and Trevalen –

Added the heading

Irregularities in Bush’s Transfer Request

And the following text

, “The transfer request (http://www.glcq.com/docs/(72-05-24)trans_application.pdf ) itself was highly irregular. The instructions at the top of the page (and military procedure manuals) make it clear that it should have first been submitted to his “present unit of assignment”, yet Bush first submitted it to the unit to which he wanted to transfer. The current address (Item 5) that Bush listed was that of the offices of Allison and Travelan, and despite the fact that this could only be a temporary address at best, no permanent address was included per the instructions on the form. The form twice (Items 7 and 15) lists the wrong Air Force Specialty Code for Bush; it has 1125B (designating a fighter pilot trained to fly two planes no longer in service, the F-89 and/or F94) rather than 1125D (designating an F-102 pilot). And while the form does list the Training Category of the 9921st ARS (Item 17), it does not, as instructed (Item 16), list Bush’s own training category (Training Category A).

The back of the form is also filled out incorrectly. The “first indorsement” is supposed to be from the Guardsman’s current unit of assignment, who upon approval sends it to the receiving unit. The “second indorsement” is to come from the receiving unit, which is supposed to not only approve the transfer to the unit, but indicate the specific vacant position (the “Position Control Number”) to which the Guardman will be assigned. Instead, Bricken filled out the first indorsement, and sent it back to Bush personally.

Furthermore, “Air Reserve Squadrons” were a special kind of unit, In general, Air Reserve Squadrons consisted of individuals with specific civilian professional qualifications (lawyers, doctors, clergy) which would be needed in the event of a mobilization, but whose job within the military did not require the constant “military” training required of combat personnel. But “Training Category G” Air Reserve Squadrons included “Members of Congress and other key Federal employees.” (http://www.glcq.com/cfrs/102.pdf, section 102.3) Bush, of course, was neither. More importantly, assignments to Air Reserrve Squadrons were controlled completely by the Air Reserve Personnel Center in Denver Colorado, unlike “regular” Reserve and Guard units, individual Air Reserve Squadrons had no power to approve or disapprove transfers.

Deleted the sentence” On May 26, Reese H. Bricken, commander of the 9921st, wrote to Bush to tell him that his application had been accepted.” And replaced it with “On May 26, Reese H. Bricken, commander of the 9921st, “approved” Bush’s application for transfer. Bricken also made it clear that he understood that the transfer request was highly irregular, writing “You already understand that this is a Training Category G, Pay Group None, Reserve Section MM proposition.” (emphasis added). As an obligated Reservist, Bush was in “Training Category A”, which required the 48 periods of inactive duty training, and 15 days of active duty training, and was required to remain in that Training Category. Training Category “G” offered no training at all.

The “training category” issue is key here, because under Air Force regulations (AFM 35-3, paragraph 14-6) “If a member…will be unable to further train with his unit because of an impending change of residence,…he is required to sign a statement that he has been counseled.” That “counseling” included notifying Bush of his obligation to find a new unit with which he could fulfill his training obligations.

Rational for major addition. This information is more fully fleshed out in my piece at http://www.glcq.com/trans. The bottom line on this transfer request is that it was not merely highly irregular, but has all the earmarks of a scam designed to get Bush out of his training obligation with the Air National Guard. Rufus Martin has acknowledged both that he suggested the 9921st and that he knew that Bush was ineligible for transfer to that unit at the time the request was made. This was not, as if is often described, some kind of “temporary transfer”, if it had been approved, it would have removed Bush from the Air National Guard entirely – and relieved Bush of any obligation to perform any training whatsoever. It is important, IMHO, to make the true nature of this transfer request known, and it is especially important to make it clear that despite the transfer request, Bush remained obligated to train with the 147th, rather than suggest (as the current version does) that because Bush had gotten “approval” from Bricken and Hodges, he was somehow off the hook for training while the request was being processed. (see below).

Added the subheading The Transfer Request is Rejected, and subsequent performance

Deleted the first request for a citation in the paragraph which begins…”On July 21st…” and provided a link to the appropriate document from which both quotes were taken.

Replaced “This rejection left Bush obligated to continue his duty with his Texas Air National Guard unit, the 111th at Ellington Air Force Base near Houston, Texas.[citation needed] From the records, and from statements from Colonel Bricken, it seems clear that Bush did not report for any duty at the 9921st, and no claims to the contrary have been made.[neutrality disputed]” with “Throughout this period, Bush remained obligated to train with his Texas unit, or perform substitute training each month. Bush service chronology (his AF-11, see http://www.glcq.com/docs/(undated)af_11_unscribbled.pdf ) shows no indication that the 147th ever transferred Bush out of its control, nor do Bush’s payroll records for the period in question (http://www.glcq.com/docs/payroll_72q2.pdf ) show any indication that any personnel action was officially taken by the 147th relieving him of his obligation to train with that unit. Nevertheless, Bush’s records show that he is credited with no training during these months. “ And Colonel Bricken is on record as stating that Bush made no effort to participate as a Guardsman with the 9921st.

Rationale: The current version suggests that until the transfer was rejected, Bush was not obligated to train. This is simply not the case.

Deleted the Paragraph

“Bush's failure to drill in Alabama during July, August, and September 1972 potentially means that Bush was "Absent Without Leave" for the months in question, and that even if he later "made up" the absences (most were not), he was AWOL at the time.[original research?] Lawrence Korb, former Assistant Secretary of Defense for President Ronald Reagan, has reviewed the payroll records and concluded that they indicate that Bush did not fulfill his obligations and could have been ordered to active duty as a result. [14]”

Rationale: The first sentence uses “AWOL” in an inappropriate fashion – Air Force regulations contain specific policies and procedures to deal with the failure to perform required monthly training administratively; i.e. order the violator to active duty to complete his Military Service Obligation. “AWOL” should not be used in discussions of the failure to fulfill inactive duty training requirements. (That being said, there is an argument to be made that Bush was, indeed, AWOL, because his superiors were not empowered to excuse his extended absence from inactive duty training. In that sense, the extended absence without proper authorization could be considered AWOL, but as noted above, the Air Force had administrative procedures that precluded the use of the AWOL provisions in the Uniform Code of Military Justice in such cases.) The second sentence is deleted because Korb was equivocal on the issue of Bush’s failure to fulfill his obligations for fiscal year 72-73, and Bush’s absence during the period of the “transfer request” was during that fiscal year. (and I should know – it was my research on the payroll records that Korb used in making that statement – with regard to FY 72-73, Korb feels that, although Bush was in technical violation of the requirements, it was not uncommon to allow Guardsmen to perform extra duty prior to going away for a couple of months, and ignoring the technical violation of the regulations. Although Korb acknowledges that there is no evidence that such extra duty was requested, authorized, or performed, he was unwilling to go “on the record” regarding Bush’s dereliction for FY 72-73.) Korb’s statement is, however, relevant and valuable, it just doesn’t belong immediately after a discussion of Bush’s transfer request.

Added “More than a month after the ARPC rejected Bush's transfer request” to the paragraph which begins “on September 5, 1972, Bush requested permission to "perform equivalent duty" at the 187th Tactical Recon Group in Alabama "for the months of September, October, and November." ‘

Rationale: The fact that Bush waited more than a month to apply for “equivalent duty” after the rejection of a transfer request he knew was likely to be rejected reflects the lack of urgency Bush felt with regard to fulfilling his obligations. By the time Bush received the transfer rejection, he had already blown off two full months of required training; and failed to complete his required flight physical. The fact that he waited a month and a half before seeking permission to train elsewhere is part of a pattern of disinterest in fulfilling his obligations that are necessary to understand his records.

Provided a link to Bush’s payroll records which show payment for inactive duty training in October and November, 1972. (the fact that the data entry for these dates was not done until December 22, 1972 – a fact reflected in the julian date (357) at the end of the data entry lines found at the bottom of the page that correspond to these payments, is also highly relevant. Under regulations, notification of “equivalent training” done with a different unit had to be sent by the training unit within 48 hours of the training being accomplished. If everything had been on the “up and up”, i.e. if all the proper approvals had been given, this data would have been entered weeks earlier. )

Provided link to payroll records showing payment for April 73 duty.

(as to relevancy, given that Bush’s OER for the period including April 73 said that he didn’t show up for training in Texas in the previous 12 months, the lack of any supporting evidence is a strong indication that Bush may have been getting paid despite not showing up. )

Added : “Lawrence Korb, former Assistant Secretary of Defense for President Ronald Reagan, has reviewed the payroll records for Bush last two years of service, and concluded that they indicate that Bush did not fulfill his obligations and could have been ordered to active duty as a result. [14]” to the end of the section.

Rationale: It had to go somewhere, and at the end of the section seemed appropriate.

paul lukasiak

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.174.87.215 (talk • contribs) 20:27, 16 June 2006

Re the transfer request

you never noticed the most obvious falsehood of all and its right near the middle of the page: "Military schools attended...none" NONE? Thats impossible!! That's completely untrue--Bush Had been to several military schools by this time. Look at the bottom of the page: "I certify that the data contained herein is true and correct top the best of my knowledge..." On this page Bush declares himself to be an F86 pilot, who has never attended ANY military schools and permanently lives in a post office box in Alabama. he certifies this to be true "to the best of his knowledge..." Think Bush didn';t know his own AFSC? Think his superiors didn't know it? Think they didn't know if he had been to school or not? Think they didn't know his permanent address wasn't a PO Box? This is a falsified document, there's no other rational explanation for it. George Bush's signature is confirming informaation to be true that is a flatout lie--and he SIGNED it! (or maybe not---I agree Martin may have signed it) this has to be the most outrageously falsified document of any future president ever. To disagree with that one must say that Bush didn't know his own AFSC, his permanent address or whether he had been to a military school or not. And his superiors didn't know either.

I want to thank you Paul for all your work, but you and everyone else miss the main point: Bush was PAID to be a pilot for pilot's work for 14 months AFTER he had been suspended from flying. (August 1st, 1972--see date correction below) He was able to do this because his superiors fraudulently kept him listed--and PAID---as a pilot until his "honorable discharge" although he had been stripped of ALL his qualifications. This is fraud! And many other crimes as well, like dereliction of duty and embezzlement. No one has ever explained how and why Bush was paid as a pilot, to be a pilot when he was suspended from flying and was on the rolls of NO unit at all.

(Another main point you miss: Bush didn't game his way out of the military, his superiors did it for him)

Why was George Bush getting paid after 1 Aug 72 to be a pilot? Thats when he was stripped of ALL his qualifications (see discharge: "Qualifications: NONE") Nevertheless, the pay records show him getting paid 52 more days after his supension. He is ONLY listed as a pilot, there's nothing else they call him.

On this document: [1] Martin falsely states that Bush earned 56 points that year (May 72-73) for being a "plt on-fly." This is false: Bush was suspended on August 1st, 1972, four months into that year. After that, he was no longer a "plt on-fly" and it was criminal to pay him--or certify--him as such. he didn't fly at all, the whole year! Yet we have Martin's signature certifying this to be true. This is fraud! This is another falsification--unless you think Bush should be credited and paid for pilot's work he was suspended from doing and he himself admits he didn't do. ALL these points for this year are fraudulent because they were awarded to Bush for being a "plt on-fly" and he was not--which makes Bush's discharge fraudulent also.

George BUsh was paid to be a pilot, with flight pay, for 14 days this year and for 38 more days untill his discharge, 14 months after his suspension from flying when he never flew at all and doesn't even claim he did. Thats all right there on your own website. Thats why they scrambled his papers when they released them. Bush and his superiors defrauded his way out of the service and thats what his records show.

Look at the OETR 72-73: [2] "...Lt Bush has not been observed at this unit during the time of this report..." that means he wasn't paid through through the 111th's or through their authorization that whole year--but the 187th Alabama ANG has no record of him there either. That mmeans he wasn't paid through that unit either, ever, since he didn't sign in. His pay records differ from their training days and his transfer "approval" shows different days than his pay records. So how did george BUsh get paid for 14 days this year for work he had beeen suspended from doing and when the only two units he cculd have been in say he wasn't there? this is fraud and embezzlement: he was paid on the false premise that he was a "plt on-fly" And he knew when he signed the checks that he hadn't done the work.

Look at the response to the correction notice for the OETR covering this year: [3] "...This officer should have been reassigned in May 1972 since he is no longer training in his AFSC or in his unit of assignment..." That says it right there: he should have been reassigned/reclassified in May 1972--and he wasn't! He was kept listed as a pilot, 1125D, throughout his "service" until his "honorable discharge." This is FRAUD! His superiors falsely kept him listed as a pilot--and PAID as a pilot--for work they had suspended him from doing, at a time when they claim he wsn't in their unit. See also [4] "...If 30 days have passed and the officer has not been medically certified for return to pilots status,change the officers flying code to reflect a grounded status..." Bush's superiors violated this regulation when they kept him as a pilot. Also"...The original aeronautical order that placed a rated officer on flying status TO FLY REGULARLY AND FREQUENTLY will remain valid untill....d: is suspended from flying status under 2-29..." Bush's superiors did none of this--they kept him fraudulently listed as a pilot for 14 more months.

When George BUsh signed checks for pilot's work he could not have done, because he was suspended from doing it he committed embezzlement of federal funds--and his superiors aided and abetted him by committing crimes of their own. Or explain why they kept him listed and paid as a pilot all the way untill his discharge when he had been suspended from flying and hadn't flown an inch.

exlrrp —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.142.130.38 (talk • contribs) 20:14, 20 March 2007

Killian section updates

I put in a more exact sequence for the Killian stuff, as well as what was going on, along with the best refs I could find. It often if not usually gets omitted that the CBS story that used the Killian documents came right in the middle of releases of Bush's official records by the DoD (under the duress of an AP FOIA lawsuit) -- records were released the day before the CBS story and then more a few days later. The initial press reaction was to treat the CBS memos as part of the overall media analysis of those official records, and that analysis was showing lots of unexplained discrepencies. Once the forgery assertions took up the attention of the media, however, there was little further analyses or coverage of the official records.

Also there is a lot of confusion regarding the forgery claims about what was "proven" or not: while it's taken as a gimme on many if not most of the conservative/right wing blog sites that the memos were "proven" to be fakes or forgeries, when looked into, the "proven" bit turns out to be little more than taking unproven -- and often demonstably false -- assertions appearing in the conservative media at face value, and/or "extrapolating" on what the mainstream media and some experts actually said. Claims of what common 1970's office technology can or can't do have turned out to be pretty much completely false according to any authoritative journal or book on the subject; claims that the memos could be easily replicated with Word also turn out to be false -- only one of the four memos CBS used (the "CYA" one) can be reasonably recreated with Word; all claims of discrepencies in the formatting of the memos are contradicted both by Air Force writing guides like the "Tongue and Quill" (aka AFM33-337) and by copies of other memos around the time of the Killian memos and even earlier -- go look carefully at this declassified military "Memorandum for Record" dated June 11, 1959; and likewise all claims that the contents or wrong with addresses and dates and such are contrdicted by the official records maintained by the DoD here. So when all of the nonsense is cleared away, what is left is that CBS did a very poor job authenticating the memos; the rest of the mainstream media didn't really do much if anything to help clear up matters; and the conservative media showed that no rumor or unsupported assertion is bad enough not to be presented or recycled.

The last bit is probably too much POV on my part, but I left that off in the section update. I did put in a little "teaser" at the very end linking to a few things that should have been brought up at some point in all the press coverage of the Killian memos saga, but weren't for some strange reason. FYI. -BC aka Callmebc 13:24, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Good edits. Dlabtot 15:04, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. I was thinking of going back and adding more info into the refs (date of publication and such), but nobody else is doing that. I'll try to return and add refs to other sections of interest to me. Tedious, but I suppose necessary. -BC aka Callmebc 16:58, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

OTOH, I would support removal of the entire "Critics of... " paragraph as constituting too much original research. Dlabtot 17:18, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, too much he said/she said.... -BC aka Callmebc 23:07, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

I think that the fact that the secretary (Marian Carr Knox) interviewed about the Killian documents said “I know that I didn’t type them, however, the information in those is correct.” [5] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.69.118.1 (talk) 20:38, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Release of military records

There seems to be the September 24 release missing -- and that's the one containing the only proportionally printed document in all of Bush's service records. Will try to fix quickly. -BC aka Callmebc 14:27, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Preceding editor was including original research and has been blocked from participation. Don't know what he intended to fix. -- SEWilco (talk) 18:28, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Archiving

This has gotten rather large with stuff which is not being discussed. Archiving will begin shortly. -- SEWilco (talk) 18:28, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Misleading Timeline Comment?

In the Timeline section, there is a quote from one of Bush's earlier evaluations that goes, In November 1970, Lt. Col. Jerry B. Killian, commander of the 111th Fighter Squadron (Texas Air National Guard), recommended that Bush be promoted to First Lieutenant, calling him "a dynamic outstanding young officer" who stood out as "a top notch fighter interceptor pilot." He said that "Lt. Bush's skills far exceed his contemporaries," and that "he is a natural leader whom his contemporaries look to for leadership. Lt. Bush is also a good follower with outstanding disciplinary traits and an impeccable military bearing."

However, questions regarding Bush's service involve his later period in the Air National Guard, and for Bush's last evaluation, covering the May 1, 1972 - May 30, 1973 period, Killian signed off on an evaluation report that had all the "Not Observed" boxes checked and this comment: Lt Bush has not been observed at this unit during the period of this report. A civilian occupation made it neccessary for him to move to Montgomery, Alabama. He cleared this base on 15 May 1972 and has been performing equivalent training in a non flying status with the 187 Tac Recon Gp, Dannelly ANG Base, Alabama.

Wouldn't this be the more appropriate report to quote from/refer to rather than a 1970 one that predates the controversial period? -BC aka Callmebc (talk) 14:11, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I agree. Dlabtot (talk) 17:37, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

The 1972 period is already mentioned in the last paragraph of the Timeline. You're referring to a quote during an earlier period. -- SEWilco (talk) 05:03, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

The issue is that the current quote featured in the article, from 1970, predates Bush's controversial years and hence is misleading. Quoting what Killian's (and Harris's) comments from a 1973 evalution covering some a period of his service in question seems a bit more germane to the article, don't you think? -BC aka Callmebc (talk) 18:10, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

It's a Timeline section which summarizes his entire service period. Replacing his entire service period with only one period will make it be neither a timeline nor a summary. The 1970s is covered in the paragraph after the one you read; read a little further. -- SEWilco (talk) 18:32, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

If you read the entire "Timeline" section, it's only 3 short paragraphs, with the middle one virtually completely taken up by the complementary 1970 quote. You need to go to the last sentence of the 3rd paragraph to get to the less complementary stuff, and it's a lot less specific: "But from that point on, Bush failed to meet the attendance requirements established by Federal law, Department of Defense regulations, and Air Force policies and procedures for "obligated" members of the Air National Guard, and the Air Force requirement for an annual physical examination for pilots." It would seem a a better balanced timeline would start off with a general comment about how how Bush's pilot career started well, but then problems evidently developed during his latter years, typified by that 1973 quote. Wouldn't that make for a more informative and accurate article? -BC aka Callmebc (talk) 20:22, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Uploading Bush records to Wikipedia?

I have another question, although not quite directly related to the above. Bush's Air National Guard records are maintained by the DoD here, but the individual records are deeply embedded in PDF files, often unsorted and with multiple copies of varying quality. Specific records of particular interest like the "Not Observed" one I referenced are mostly collected by sites that might be viewed as being POV-pushing, however factual and accurate they are in content, regarding Bush's military service, like the glcq.com site I used and this one as well, which I personally maintain. My site evidently has the best copies of individual DoD records, and glcq.com has some otherwise very hard to find info on regulations cited in the DoD records. Since this is all federal government/US military stuff in the public domain, wouldn't it make more sense to upload any relevant files to Wikipedia if they are going to be referenced rather than having to link to a site like glcq.com? The only other method I think of that would involve not using a site like glcq.com would involve having to point out the PDF page numbers of which DoD file the record appears. But that is somewhat cumbersome given the size of the PDF's and that a given record may take up 2 or more pages. Thoughts? -BC aka Callmebc (talk) 18:16, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

If they are verifiably (apparently not a word) in the public domain, the best option may be to upload them to Wikisource.org. I'm not an editor there, but reading their inclusion policy leads me to believe this is precisely the content they host. Once stored over there, a link could be provided within this article. Again, I'm not an editor there, so you may want to ask them for yourself. - auburnpilot talk 05:13, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the input -- I'll ask. -BC aka Callmebc (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 18:11, 14 January 2008 (UTC)