Talk:Pinsk massacre

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Propose Pinsk pogrom. Bad titles of some articles is no justification to create new articles under such names. --Irpen 21:27, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

It's not a bad title. I've copied it after Polish wiki. Also checked Google books [1] for usage. --Lysy^talk 21:50, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Object. The use of pogrom for this event is specifically criticized by sources, for example see Piotrowski where Mongenthau's commission stated it was not a pogrom ([2]), Bendersky ([3] where a US officer on scence states it was not a pogrom, and Davies which calls it a "so-called Pogrom" ([4]). Also, please don't mix up the murder of 35 Jews, discussed by quite a few sources, with some other controversies of the Polish-Soviet War.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  21:58, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Luczynski

Davies (see above) notes that the order to shoot was given by a lieutant. Bendersky notes that 'major Luczynski' was the town commander, but doesn't state he gave the order. My quick search show that future general Aleksander Narbut-Łuczyński served as a colonel during the PSWar, but I can't find anything more in online sources, for now I suggest rephrasing the text so that - per our sources - we don't associate Łuczyński with the order itself; I can't find anything on his promotion, but the current article implies he was promoted for ordering a massacre - certainly a mistaken allegation.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  22:32, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't expect his promotion was associated with the massacre. Maybe this should be rephrased. --Lysy^talk 22:44, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Further, Morgenthau talks about major Łuszyński - or perhaps its a wikisource typo? Anyway, looking for a shorter name (Aleksander Łuczyński), I found more data: according to this, he was promoted to colonel in 1919 and general in 1924.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  23:03, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Hospital massacre?

The lead states: Also arrested and shot where members of the medical personnel of the Pinsk hospital. The reference laks most info (full name of the author, page citation, isbn). Also, another reference is non-English (Документы и материалы по истории советско-польских отношений.), please translate. Further, per WP:LEAD lead should summarize the article - so the hospital massacre should be discussed in article; even so what's the connection of this alleged hospital massacre to Pinsk massacre, I don't know - it is not mentioned in a single source I can find (the current text event doesn't state who shot whom in the hospital - Poles Jews, Soviet Poles, Poles Soviets...?).-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  22:36, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

I could not find any information on the hospital massacre. Maybe some of the murdered Jews were the hospital personnel ? --Lysy^talk 22:49, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Meltyukhov speaks of murder of Jews arrested at the meeting separately from the murder of the medical personnel. Also, that would be not a unique event. Medics were also murdered at the Berdychiv hospital. Perhaps they where Jews as there were many Jewish medics and Polish advances were notorious by anti-Jewish atrocities. I recommend Babel's diary recently translated into English and published in NY. --Irpen 22:55, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Anyway, does this belong here ? --Lysy^talk 23:01, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

I think that the current reference in body is acceptable, and the events can be also mentioned in the Controversies of the Polish-Soviet War article. Both sides claimed that the other has done various attrocities; for example there were reports of Soviets massacring Polish hospital staff and patients near Mohylew in 1918 ([5]). The event certainly is not notable enough to mention in lead, as it is not mentioned by any other source.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  23:08, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Meltyukhov does not say that the hospital was in Pinsk. He may be describing a completely separate event. --Lysy^talk 05:58, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Huh? --Irpen 07:47, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Here is what he writes:

• Занятие городов и населенных пунктов сопровождалось самочинными расправами военных с местными представителями советской власти, а также еврейскими погромами, выдававшимися за акты искоренения большевизма.
• Так, после занятия Пинека по приказу коменданта польского гарнизона на месте, без суда было расстреляно около 40 евреев, пришедших для молитвы, которых приняли за собрание большевиков.
• Был арестован медицинский персонал госпиталя и несколько санитаров расстреляны.
• Хотя эти факты получили широкую огласку, военное командование отказало гражданской администрации в допуске к документам. Преступление было оправдано нервным напряжением офицеров в боях с большевиками, а прямой его виновник — переведен в другое место с повышением.

The second and third sentence are the illustrations for the first sentence and they are not clearly interrelated. He does not even mention if the people in the hospital were Jewish or why they were arrested. So far, it does not seem related to the subject of the article. --Lysy^talk 08:03, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Please restore the author's paragraphing. --Irpen 08:13, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Huh? --Lysy^talk 08:46, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

"A paragraph is a self-contained unit of a discourse in writing dealing with a particular point or idea, or the words of an author." --Irpen 09:01, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

I've bulleted the sentences for easier reference. Their order is not changed. What I'm trying to convey it that there is no clear relation between sentences 2 and 3. Also, about the hospital, we don't know who was arrested, when, where, by whom, why, if there was any trial, how many prisoners were executed, and why. This is pretty useless for the purpose of the article about the Pinsk massacre. --Lysy^talk 09:33, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

I am sure that the second phrase is continuation of the first bullet point otherwise the text does not make sense Alex Bakharev 10:16, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but it's the third bullet that is the problem. If read together with the second sentence, it could suggest that the hospital was in Pinsk, personnel was Jewish, and was shot without trial. Neither of these has to be true. We need another source, which describes what happened more specifically if we want to link the hospital story with the Pinsk massacre. Otherwise they are unrelated. --Lysy^talk 11:13, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

As I cannot read Russian, I am hoping you can answer the following questions:

• does M. state it was 'Pinsk hospital' specifically or only that it was some hospital local to the area?
• does M. state nationality/ethnicity of the victims and perpatrators?
• does M. state the number of victims?

English translation would be appreciated. -- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  17:01, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

No, all he says is: Был арестован медицинский персонал госпиталя и несколько санитаров расстреляны, which means "Medical personnel of a hospital was arrested and several orderlies (or combat medics?) were shot." That's all. --Lysy^talk 17:33, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

So in essense he is not saying they were shot by Poles, nor that they were killed (possibly only wounded)?-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  18:44, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

No, he implies that they were shot dead by Poles. The incident happened during "capture of towns and settlements". In the previous statement he briefly describes the Pinsk massacre, this is why Irpen believes that the hospital incident is related. However no whereabouts or other details of the incident are provided, just the statement that I have translated before. --Lysy^talk 19:13, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Number of victims

Most of the sources agree, that the number of victims were 35. Do we have any significant sources that claim otherwise ? --Lysy^talk 22:41, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Meltyukhov gives 40. --Irpen 22:50, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Does he give an exact number, or "around 40" ? (btw, out of curiosity: does he explain how he arrived at this number?) --Lysy^talk 22:54, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Somehow I did not realise it was available online. Indeed all he says is "around 40". So simply 35 is "around 40" for this author. We can be grateful that 40 is not "around 50" and 50 is not "around 100". --Lysy^talk 06:09, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

? --Irpen 06:13, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

OK, we don't know why Meltyukhov chose not to give the exact number. But indeed it's not our role to speculate about this here. --Lysy^talk 06:49, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

That's interesting, however all other sources give 35. His differing number may be given in body, but there is no reason to discuss his dissenting view in lead.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  23:12, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Related discussion

Pinsk massacre was discussed some time ago at Talk:History_of_Jews_in_Poland#1918-1939.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  16:58, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Davies in WERS on Pinsk

I found online a (Polish edition) citation about this incident: [6]. Interesting points: 1) most but not all victims were Jewish; American lieutant Foster confirmed that Polish army acted withing acceptable limits (considering it was near frontline during a war) and finally, that there are still doubts whether it wasn't, indeed, a Bolshevik meeting after all.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  02:51, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Sweet! But because of your past incidents of sources falsification, I am sure it is not asking for too much as to get your source and your reading of it verified by a third party. --Irpen 02:57, 30 May 2007 (UTC)